In some ways the monk does TWF better than the fighter out-of-the-box (i.e. before advance chargen) because they start off with only needing a great DEX. Fighters often need to spend a Fighting Style and/or Dual Wielder feat and/or gp on better weaponry to really outpace the baseline damage of the monk. Imprisoned, stripped naked, and thrown into prison (and when does that ever happen on adventures? :rolleyes:), all other things being equal, a lv 1 monk unarmed is 1d4+3/1d4+3, versus a lv 1 fighter unarmed at 1+? (dependent upon STR value). And since Light weapon property caps at 1d6 damage, which is a damage die value easily available within simple weaponry and shortsword, it takes the optional feat system for other class chargen to break past that monk threshold.

The monk plays well to a highly civilized society where the tools of war are tightly controlled. However they get outpaced by a proper disciple of war, a fighter, when both are all kitted out. This is a very good design space because it focuses monk combat prowess within a narrow band of solid baseline proficiency with a visible glass ceiling. It retains the design space of both by giving nod to contextual limiters.

What it grants instead is lateral proficiency into the other spheres of play, most notably exploration. It's rather tragic that everything has been reduced into white room arena theorycrafting, but the monk has some really amazing non-combat toys. Like Rogue>Thieves and their Second Story Work, the monk has some cool stuff.

For example, though it is likely rarely discussed, being able to use Ki to Dash as a bonus action then jump double length +DEX mod is great! Given that base long jump is 10' starting run to get full STR value feet, half STR value without starting run, you can see some fun here. A monk with STR 10 and DEX 16, a pretty standard build, can Ki long jump 23' — all while using that as their bonus action Dash movement! Wushia parkour or combat kiting hijinks are built in by lvl 2, which very much retains kung-fu tropes.

I just wish, like I do for the Rogue, that so many class features don't key off of predominant stat values. DEX has more than enough love baseline. Class features do not need to keep keying off it as that tightens de facto build restrictions. I personally wouldn't mind spitballing alternate rewrites of such features, a la my efforts to supplant Sneak Attack and others.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;844961Aha.  Thank you.  I guess I'm blind.  Which lowers the potential damage down to 1D6+2/1d4+2 (before racials) at first level.  Ouch.  Unless you're allowed to two hand Versatile weapons, which is what the Quarterstaff falls under, then it's back up to 1D8+2 (Before racial bonuses)

Again, book is not in front of me, but I am pretty sure that Martial Arts allows you to use the same melee monk weapon again for its Martial Arts granted bonus action. Which would be pre-racial () 1d6+2/1d6+2. Compared to spear used versatily for pre-racial 1d8+2, and thus two-handed and thus likely against monk weapon RAI writing, the former is better because you have two tries to hit, and more chances to crit. And you also have a hand free to mess with the combat state, like grapple or shove someone as an opportunity attack with your reaction.

Quote from: Opaopajr;844971Again, book is not in front of me, but I am pretty sure that Martial Arts allows you to use the same melee monk weapon again for its Martial Arts granted bonus action. Which would be pre-racial () 1d6+2/1d6+2. Compared to spear used versatily for pre-racial 1d8+2, and thus two-handed and thus likely against monk weapon RAI writing, the former is better because you have two tries to hit, and more chances to crit. And you also have a hand free to mess with the combat state, like grapple or shove someone as an opportunity attack with your reaction.

I thought we were post-racial already?!

The additional strike from Martial Arts has to be unarmed, which puts us at 1d8+2 (main attack with versatile quarterstaff or spear) and 1d4+2 for the bonus action unarmed strike.

QuoteWhen you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.

The aforementioned tweet regarding two-handed use of a versatile weapon, for what that's worth, is here.

Well, there ya go! Thanks! Geau wushia spearmen!

Quote from: Natty Bodak;844683What number would make you happy for Monk Bruce Lee's AC, and at what level?

Tough question. Of course, a 1st-level monk shouldn't be Bruce Lee any more than a first level fighter should be Conan or something like that. But in every edition prior to 5e at least, the Monk had to deal with having a very poor AC by level 2 or 3 compared to fighters.  After the first couple of adventures, undoubtedly, a low-level fighter will have full plate mail and shield, whereas a monk is stuck unarmored with no real compensation other than "wait until MANY levels later when you'll finally catch up".  All because in D&D "dodging" is meaningless.

Quote from: Omega;844782er? The 5e Monk can start off right out the gate with an AC upwards of 18 or even 19 with an elf or other DEX bonus race. That equals or outstrips everyone elses starting ACs except for the Fighter and Paladin (and I think a dwarven Cleric?) who can start off with an AC of 18 via chain mail + shield. Only the Barbarian can exceed that due to being able to use a shield and still gain the unarmoured AC.

And they use a d8 for HP?

I was actually think of old-school monks.

Quote from: RPGPundit;845440Tough question. Of course, a 1st-level monk shouldn't be Bruce Lee any more than a first level fighter should be Conan or something like that. But in every edition prior to 5e at least, the Monk had to deal with having a very poor AC by level 2 or 3 compared to fighters.  After the first couple of adventures, undoubtedly, a low-level fighter will have full plate mail and shield, whereas a monk is stuck unarmored with no real compensation other than "wait until MANY levels later when you'll finally catch up".  All because in D&D "dodging" is meaningless.

Um, in 4e the Monk had pretty decent AC and could acquire a solid AC 16 (post-racial) or 17 with a Dex of 20 at 1st level without feats. Many took Unarmored Agility, bumping it up to AC 18/19 which is only 1 off from a Paladin in full-plate and shield.

Perhaps old-school implies 3.5 and before..

Quote from: Batman;845458Um, in 4e the Monk had pretty decent AC and could acquire a solid AC 16 (post-racial) or 17 with a Dex of 20 at 1st level without feats. Many took Unarmored Agility, bumping it up to AC 18/19 which is only 1 off from a Paladin in full-plate and shield.

Perhaps old-school implies 3.5 and before..

in AD&D by 3rd level the Monk probably had an AC of 7 if they were lucky enough to have 16 dex.
They had, on average 10 HP they fought on the Thief combat table (+2 attack per 4 levels)

Compare this to the typical fighter who would have AC of 2 and 16 HP (Assuming no Con bonus) and +2 attack per 2 levels (with a +1 bump at 1st level)

The monk had limited ranged combat (no bows) and no spells. So basically they were limited to throwing weapons and moving about.

No so much a glass cannon as a glass waterpistol.....

Once weapons specialisation came in with UA monks were even weaker relatively speaking. If you wanted to play Bruce Lee you were much better off with a figther double specialised with Nunchuks dual weilding and just have AC 10 + dex bonus.
If you could play OA you could pick a martial arts style and double spec in that to get some decent AC and unarmed attack bonuses.

Quote from: jibbajibba;845478in AD&D by 3rd level the Monk probably had an AC of 7 if they were lucky enough to have 16 dex.
They had, on average 10 HP they fought on the Thief combat table (+2 attack per 4 levels)

Compare this to the typical fighter who would have AC of 2 and 16 HP (Assuming no Con bonus) and +2 attack per 2 levels (with a +1 bump at 1st level)

The monk had limited ranged combat (no bows) and no spells. So basically they were limited to throwing weapons and moving about.

No so much a glass cannon as a glass waterpistol.....

Once weapons specialisation came in with UA monks were even weaker relatively speaking. If you wanted to play Bruce Lee you were much better off with a figther double specialised with Nunchuks dual weilding and just have AC 10 + dex bonus.
If you could play OA you could pick a martial arts style and double spec in that to get some decent AC and unarmed attack bonuses.

Ugh, that's rough. I'm really happy I got out of that system when I did.

Quote from: Batman;845458Um, in 4e the Monk had pretty decent AC and could acquire a solid AC 16 (post-racial) or 17 with a Dex of 20 at 1st level without feats. Many took Unarmored Agility, bumping it up to AC 18/19 which is only 1 off from a Paladin in full-plate and shield.

Perhaps old-school implies 3.5 and before..

4e doesn't count.  Its a non-edition as far as D&D is concerned. It has been punished with damnatio memoria.

Quote from: RPGPundit;8454874e doesn't count.  Its a non-edition as far as D&D is concerned. It has been punished with damnatio memoria.

Lol, wut? *goes and checks books* yep the books specifically has the title Dungeons and Dragons on it. So, like I said, Monks from 3e/3,5 and prior had to deal with sub-par AC.

Quote from: Batman;845512Lol, wut? *goes and checks books* yep the books specifically has the title Dungeons and Dragons on it. So, like I said, Monks from 3e/3,5 and prior had to deal with sub-par AC.

It might say D&D, but it wasn't D&D.

Quote from: Batman;845512Lol, wut? *goes and checks books* yep the books specifically has the title Dungeons and Dragons on it. So, like I said, Monks from 3e/3,5 and prior had to deal with sub-par AC.

4e is has not been considered D&D by a lot of players, to the point of running screaming to Paizo's Pathfinder and at the time, claiming it was the 'Second Coming!' (Yes, there really was people who claimed that.  No, I didn't agree with it.  Kind of ironic, given that there are a lot of ideas in PFRPG that are clearly cribbed from 4e of late.)  And the developers of 5e decided to make the current edition 'compatible with all editions and clones', and yet, there's very little you can take from, or to, 4e.  Pretty much means that even WoTC no longer considers 4e to actually be an Edition.  In fact, the only place you see the term D&D Fifth Edition or 5e, is on the Internet.  None of the books refer to itself as the Fifth Edition.

Quote from: RPGPundit;845961It might say D&D, but it wasn't D&D.

Sure it was, despite that you don't like it. I think AD&D is absolute trash and a completely unplayable game but as much as I hate it, it says the name on the cover.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;8459694e is has not been considered D&D by a lot of players, to the point of running screaming to Paizo's Pathfinder and at the time, claiming it was the 'Second Coming!' (Yes, there really was people who claimed that.  No, I didn't agree with it.  Kind of ironic, given that there are a lot of ideas in PFRPG that are clearly cribbed from 4e of late.)  And the developers of 5e decided to make the current edition 'compatible with all editions and clones', and yet, there's very little you can take from, or to, 4e.  Pretty much means that even WoTC no longer considers 4e to actually be an Edition.  In fact, the only place you see the term D&D Fifth Edition or 5e, is on the Internet.  None of the books refer to itself as the Fifth Edition.

Sure WotC considers 4e an edition. I mean, a lot of the surveys talks about previous edition options like what classes and races to bring to 5e and there's always options from 4e in there like the Warden, Vyrloka, Invoker, etc. Not only that but its quite easy to convert stuff from 4e to 5e or take feats straight from 4e into 5e.

Quote from: Batman;845987Sure it was, despite that you don't like it. I think AD&D is absolute trash and a completely unplayable game but as much as I hate it, it says the name on the cover.

It's an edition they're hoping quietly goes away.

Quote from: Batman;845987Sure WotC considers 4e an edition. I mean, a lot of the surveys talks about previous edition options like what classes and races to bring to 5e and there's always options from 4e in there like the Warden, Vyrloka, Invoker, etc.

I've not looked at many of the surveys, but of those I've looked at, not one of them has anything to do with 4e.  Are there any? (Honest question, like I said, I've missed many a survey.)

Quote from: Batman;845987Not only that but its quite easy to convert stuff from 4e to 5e or take feats straight from 4e into 5e.

So why haven't they?  Even as Unearthed Arcana articles.