Quote from: robiswrong;838184Both of these.  My primary point with drawing attention to "antagonists" was to move away from the model where there's a "Big Bad Evil Guy" and the entirety of the "plot" is the stuff that the players do on the very linear track from "Starting Village" all the way to "Final Confrontation In BBEG's Lair" (probably going through the

Even assuming that there is some kind of "BBEG", he's probably working with people.  Who are they?  Why are they working with him?  What about the various people on the way?

I know Apocalypse World is anathema here, but it gives one really useful piece of advice - the one thing it says you should give every NPC is something they *want*.  As soon as an NPC wants something, they become active.  The players get a way to manipulate them.  Their pursuit of their wants moves things.

Obviously, doing that for every orc would be kinda dumb, but it's still useful advice in general.

How I deal with this is take an "anyone can die at anytime" approach with my bad guys and I am always sure to make plenty of NPCs who are merely in opposition to the PCs but not necessarily evil. I agree that motive is important as well.

Yea, let's not get too carried away with "me trying to railroad anyone." I don't need a plot, and I am trying to use motivated antagonists, but I still run into the "there's not a lot to do."

e.g., antagonist and his ghouls attack the town in response to something else that happens
players (do something in response)
?? we're done ??

it's more turning something like an antagonist w/ a goal into something that takes an entire session to work on and is interesting and challenging!

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;838189How I deal with this is take an "anyone can die at anytime" approach with my bad guys and I am always sure to make plenty of NPCs who are merely in opposition to the PCs but not necessarily evil. I agree that motive is important as well.

Yep.

All antagonists or bad guys can die at anytime (or surrender or be captured). Well, so too can the good guys and PCs for that matter. If I want to make the PCs to be harder to kill than normal folks then I play a game like Star Wars D6 or Honor+Intrigue that includes Force Points or Fortune Points for the PCs that the PCs/players can use to (usually) avoid death. Of course those systems provide similar bennies for the major villains so they can (usually) avoid death in the first scene or two in which they appear.

But I have lots of NPCs so I don't get concerned when the PCs kill or capture one. Case in point: two sessions ago the PCs finally killed a villain who had been bedeviling them for quite a long time. But not to worry. The PCs seem to make new enemies much faster than they can kill off old enemies.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;838197Yea, let's not get too carried away with "me trying to railroad anyone." I don't need a plot, and I am trying to use motivated antagonists, but I still run into the "there's not a lot to do."

e.g., antagonist and his ghouls attack the town in response to something else that happens
players (do something in response)
?? we're done ??

it's more turning something like an antagonist w/ a goal into something that takes an entire session to work on and is interesting and challenging!

I have the opposite problem that my sessions nearly always (~ 99%) of the time, take longer to run than I expect. This is because I tend to have complicated plots and players who don't make decisions very quickly. And then I tend to add additional things to scenes and settings in between play so the longer they take to solve situations the more complicated the situation tends to get.

My advice is
1) Don't worry if they solve stuff quickly. As long as you don't build the villain up into your setting's equivalent of Sauron in the Lord of the Rings, players tend to like defeating the villain quickly. It makes them feel competent and powerful.

2) Try adding minor villains tangential to your major villain. This can slow down the pace so the PCs don't quickly deal with the major villain while still giving them something to do.

Example: Your major villain is a crime lord. In the process of dealing with the crime lord the PCs will probably spend some time in the seedy side of town. Add some other minor villains who are unconnected to the major villain plot that they can run into and deal with.

• The PCs witness a gang of thugs robbing a nearby bank, store, merchant, or tavern. Though unrelated to the big bad, the thugs might have a minor clue that helps the PCs or they are just part of the color for the bad part of town that gives the PCs a chance to be heroes. (Assuming the players want to run heroes. Otherwise the PCs might take the loot away from the thugs and keep it themselves or even recruit the thugs for the PCs' own gang.)

• Or have the PCs witness muggers or pickpockets in action. This gives the PCs a chance to help the victims or recruit or question the minor mugs.

• For added complexity have a rival bad guy try to help or recruit the PCs to act against the big bad they were already going to act against. Now what do they do?

• Or, if have the big bad try to recruit the PCs to help him move against another rival big bad. Now what do they do?

(You might want to read Red Harvest by Dashiell Hammett or watch Yojimbo, A Fist Full or Dollars, or the Last Man Standing, or read David Drake's The Sharp End. Basically these are all versions of Hammett's story.set in different times and places.)
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Sorry, PencilBoy, I didn't mean to imply you were railroading.  The point was that if you have a single threat, that the path to that threat is almost inevitably linear.

As far as the necromancer showing up at the gates... don't sell him short.  What does he want?  How would he go about getting it?

Sending all of his forces against the town in a single attack that is easily turned aside is not a particularly good strategy.  Play him smarter than that.

Yea, that makes sense. I was going to have him just assault the town. that doesn't make any sense, as he's fanatical but not stupid. So lets try:

1. he has underlings. Let them give it a shot first;
2. he has spies, let him try to take out the players in a clever way first;

etc.

And he'd also be likely to build his forces.  Which would likely leave signs as well.

Plus he himself needs to eat/etc.

One complication would be to give the necromancer an ally inside the town. For each ally add a rumor that might lead the PCs towards the ally. The ally can tie back to the necromancer. This adds complexity to your plot and hints at a bigger and more complicated set of going's on.
Off the top of my head:

• An evil innkeeper who occasionally kills off a lone and wealthy guest and sells the body to the necromancer for disposal and cash. Rumor > missing persons.
• A grave robber who provides the necromancer with fresh dead to animate. Rumor > vandalism of the ceremony and stolen bodies
• An alchemist who is interested in creating the elixir of life and who thinks the necromancer can aid in this task. Rumor > strange ingredients.
• The leader of a band of thieves or muggers who work for the necromancer for pay. They have no loyalty, but they like the necromancer's gold and they fear his ability to force them to serve him even after death. Rumor > violent robberies.

I am going to quote myself because I think learning to flesh out NPCs is one of those arts that helps save GMs time. By breathing life into things they tend to animate themselves and facilitate content generation — both prepped and improv. And its a concept that works well for locales, organizations, and factions, and so on.

Quote from: Opaopajr;831709I recommend this. Sure we can as GM and player sit down and negotiate the terms of attraction and the goals of relationship. But part of the fun of romance is its organic, uncontrolled nature. It also saves you from a lot of prep work.

Grab a 3x5" index card, scribble known details about the NPC (name, looks, 3 adjective personality...) and then separate a section for each tasks/routine, goals, and relationships. On the reverse, save for current news, quests, & secrets. Update accordingly, get in its headspace, and let loose.

i.e.:

Carlotta Duriel
wild, curly-haired brunette with fiery black eyes and commanding alto voice.
personality: passionate, quick-tempered, brooding.
job & routine: gunsmith, store open from M-F 10am to 6pm.
goal: match the quality workmanship of her grandfather.
relationships: Guillarme, silversmith --, Marquis Lac -, Duphrain, sheriff /, Lady Helene +, Armand, famed duelist ++. PC +.

(reverse)
news: mahogany gun handle shipment delayed.
rumors: Marquis Lac deliberately funds bandits to disrupt this town.
quests: a) find another source of good hardwood, fast! b) find evidence for truth in Marquis Lac and bandits rumor.
secrets: shot her last lover in the heat of jealous passion. she visits a lovely grave in the next county annually because of remorse.

Write it in pencil, edit regularly when they encounter each other, and let it flow organically. At worst, when the romance peters out or fails, you have a fleshed NPC and contact source.

As an exercise, can you do this same character fleshing for this Necromancer, and one of his Strongholds?

Necromancer
physical descriptor flavor
personality: 3 descriptor words
job & routine:
goal:
relationships: NPC a --, NPC b -, NPC c /, NPC d +,  NPC e ++. PC a ?.

(reverse)
news:
rumors: a)  ,  b)
quests: a)  ,  b)
secrets:

Necromancer Stronghold
location & description
atmosphere:
everyday work:
current priority:
network:

(reverse)
news:
rumors:
quests:
secrets:

In Dark Albion, in addition to more standard encounter tables, there's an "events" table for cities, and for manors/lands.  This allows for new developments in an organic campaign setting.

Well here, I'll do it. Maybe we can together cook up examples of further things the Plague Witch will do.

Plague Witch
looks like Morticia Addams, always speaks in a whisper, unconscious habit of winking at people.
personality: seductive, sarcastic, domineering.
job & routine: paid to carry the spirits of disease away from suffering towns.
goal: conquest of her own domain, craves solitude for greater pact work.
relationships: Peddler Bob --,  Farmer Antoine -, Sister Justine /, Bishop Ignacio +, 12 yr old urchin girl (Yvonne) ++.

(reverse)
news: town has a plague zombie infection incubating amid the hearts of several townsfolk. they need to die soon, or she'll face a backlog of work.
rumors: a) Zaphon found clues to a new outer power pact under The Fell Oak, b) druids are planning a disease to cull the human population.
quests: a) a sample of druidic medicine/plague knowledge, b) simulacrum spell components; Yvonne looks promising in a few years.
secrets: The ghouls are annoying, meddlesome lackeys who will likely dislike the target of her next pact. But they clean up plagued corpses so well.
----------------------------

Abandoned Abbey
center of fallow fields next to abandoned monastic town.
atmosphere: resplendent, macabre, glistening.
everyday work: keep plague zombies in check by feeding to pet ghouls. keep populace afraid so they won't disturb pact work.
current priority: culling already dying humans infected with zombie plague before she has extra work to do. nothing personal.
network: Ichorous Cataract - nationwide witch/warlock mutual support union (unreasonable dues, decent benefits package, great gossip).
Litany of the Discordant Hymn - pretentious gathering of nobility dabbling in witchcraft needing actual practitioners to teach them anything.

(reverse)
news: Abbey recently scouted by wandering bandit gang. scared off by ghouls. ghouls taken to the taste of bloated putrescence anyway.
rumors: young adults elope here to swear their love, then swearing to see angels in the Sabbath sunset. unsettling, but are they worth killing? dead lovers attract vengeful families...
quests: settle the demands of that damn moaning ghost in the south wing! whatever, have a damn garden with orange roses, find the goddamn seeds already.
secrets: an undead paladin is trapped in the collapsed cold cellar, has one eye & one arm free, still trying to get out. rather crazy, but lucid enough to play a mean game of chess.

----------------------------

Now that she has a personality, motivations, quests, and mysteries it is easy to bubble up reactions and alternate scenes in response to changing context.

Plague Witch leaves her Abandoned Abbey with pet ghouls to go kill some townsfolk who need to die. She encounters PCs in town. She then:

a) feels it's easier to just say "fuck it!" and leave. let them deal with the coming plague. shrugging and leaving, saying, "alright, you deal with all the coming death. let it be on your heads," will blow PCs minds.

b) makes a pit stop near people's rosebushes looking intently at them in the moonlight. have her light a candle or light spell to take a better look. when questioned reply, "Oh nothing to worry your pretty little head about. Be careful, some flowers have thorns..."

c) if sees the party's Druid comment, "Your people are truly fucked up, y'know. Not even I like that much death and disease." And leave that comment out there. Maybe ask, "what do you really know of treating typhus?" or something as curious before disengaging.

d) if looks at the guild artisan in the group and sneer. "Geez, since when did peddlers jump into the mercenary business. Oh that's right, always. Bet your prices are as bad as Peddler Bob, you scoundrel."

and so on... If she's killed quickly, oh well. There's still content, friends and mysteries and such, around her. Being fleshed out she leaves a fingerprint on the world.

Quote from: Opaopajr;838823Well here, I'll do it. Maybe we can together cook up examples of further things the Plague Witch will do.

I like what you've done here. Not sure I can use it, but it is a great example.

The mood I made is definitely distinctive to a particular campaign atmosphere. But I always thought having an obvious opinion helped GMs shape their worlds further. Struggling to read oblique hints within your work is like struggling to read one's own messy handwriting. Sometimes a bit of bold and colorful saves creative time.

If I knew more of PencilBoy99's setting atmosphere, or he scribbled out an index card example, then I feel confident that we could hash out more together quickly.

2D v. 3D characters, from a written standpoint, can lead to writer's block because they have less shape to them.

Quote from: Opaopajr;838936The mood I made is definitely distinctive to a particular campaign atmosphere.

You have a different approach to how I conceptualized NPCs so your output is something I likely would not have created. That is interesting to me.

Regarding 2D vs. 3D characters, I'm of the opinion that striving for 3D is overrated and seldom successful. When gaming we don't have all the non-verbal cues we get watching an actor and we seldom even have all the verbal cues since most GMs are neither the actual character nor equal to the performance of professional actors working from a script with a director and rehearsals or retakes. If a GM or a player can get across a consistent 2D character, that's good enough. If they can add a few quirks or odd details  e.g.

• secrets: shot her last lover in the heat of jealous passion; she visits a lovely grave in the next county annually because of remorse;

or

• quests: settle the demands of that damn moaning ghost in the south wing! whatever, have a damn garden with orange roses, find the goddamn seeds already)  to a consistent 2D presentation that's great and more than sufficient for me.

I also think you have a nice touch with your descriptions.

QuoteCarlotta Duriel
wild, curly-haired brunette with fiery black eyes and commanding alto voice.
personality: passionate, quick-tempered, brooding.

The two lines of description immediately gave me an intriguing impression of the character. I think the commanding alto voice was a big part. It was an unexpected detail that made the character seem like an actual interesting person.

QuotePlague Witch
looks like Morticia Addams, always speaks in a whisper, unconscious habit of winking at people.
personality: seductive, sarcastic, domineering.

For the Plague Witch, Morticia Addams is a good quick summation and the unconscious winking adds an odd quirk that makes the character interesting.

A player or character may think, "What's up with the wink?"