It seems like I need to run my Vampire Dark Ages
Game as a Sandbox. Given that I've never run one, what are the best books and GM sections of books on how to run a sandbox?

Quote from: PencilBoy99;838861It seems like I need to run my Vampire Dark Ages
Game as a Sandbox. Given that I've never run one, what are the best books and GM sections of books on how to run a sandbox?

Anything by Sine Nomine Publishing is a good guide on how to build a sandbox.

Stars Without Number is a free PDF. It's not the genre you are looking for, but I think you can still find some solid advice in it.

Other Dust is a post-apocalyptic sandbox game and Scarlet Heroes is a fantasy one. You need to pay money for those though. They are all every inspirational books regardless of whether you ever use the system.

Quote from: Baulderstone;838864Anything by Sine Nomine Publishing is a good guide on how to build a sandbox.  ...

+1000 - Solid, fun stuff chock full of good ideas.

Also, I've found Engine Publishing Guides full of great ideas for GMing, prep, etc.

I ran my VtM game (way back in the 90's) as a sandbox set in our hometown of Tacoma, WA. I worked out all the major players, various threats, and a stock pile of NPCs. I had some three binders full of stuff. The players founded a night club and the set about solidifying their power base. I must have ran that for a couple years with some short breaks. One of my most memorable games!

At it's simplest, you'd do something like this:

1) Sketch out a small starting area for your sandbox. A city, the major players, at least one clear conflict and preferably two or three. Don't worry about making the details or stats of anything, just figure out what the city's deal is and who wants what in it.

2) Make up a single session's worth of adventure. Don't worry about making a sandbox out of it, just give the group of new PCs something to show them the city, let them know about the conflicts, and let them get settled into the situation. It shouldn't take more than one session of play to wrap up.

3) At the end of the session, dangle at least three obvious hooks for them, ones that tie into the local struggles. Make them screamingly obvious, in case your players aren't really accustomed to the whole sandbox style. If the players choose to do something else entirely, that's perfectly okay too- the goal is to get them to commit to some next course of action at the end of the session, whatever it may be.

4) During the downtime between sessions, create whatever content you need to handle the next session's play. Don't overbuild. You can burn yourself out on a sandbox all too easily if you try to cover every possible contingency. Whenever you're about to make something, ask yourself if you're going to need it for your next play session or if you're having fun making it. If you can't answer "yes" to at least one of those, put it down.

5) Rinse and repeat. At the end of every session, find out where they're going next and build what you need for it. If they don't go some places or leave parts of your prep untouched, strip off the names and recycle it later when you need quick content of that type. Got a creepy noble they never meet? Peel off his name, change his face, and stick him in the next time you need a noble. Save your scraps; you can use them later.

Eventually, you'll build up enough of the world that you need less and less prep for each session, since you've already established a bunch of facts through play. So long as you keep good notes and are willing to pull in a bunch of other stuff as emergency filler when the PCs take a left turn at Albuquerque, you should be fine.

I remember a bit of advice told by a comic during an interview (can't remember who.) He was discussing improvisational comedy, particularly with a partner, and advised that, when in doubt, you should always say "yes." Whatever your partner asks or whatever silly thing he does go along with it, don't fight it or say "no."

Likewise, I remember an interview with Howard Stern where he said the key to his style is that he is intent on not editing himself, always tell the truth and put whatever is in his mind out there. Whenever he feels like he is about to hide something he reverses course and tells it. That opens the door to him saying the most outrageous things, being "edgy", controversial, etc.

So, if your players say or suggest something, say "yes." Go with it. Don't hold back. If they want to go north, let them go north. If one wants to flirt with a Dryad, let him flirt, let the Dryad be receptive to advances. Etc. Whatever silliness the players come up with work it out together with them.

I'm playing in a sandbox Pathfinder game now and one player has purchased the property deeds to two towers outside of the main city. Why? Because his homeless street urchin character never had a home of her own before. We cleaned out the towers, she had the cash, she had a lawyer, so the GM let her make the purchases. The same PC wanted to buy and train an elephant for a mount. Why? Because it's different, there were some in the neighborhood and they can carry lots of loot. The GM just went with it.

Prior to writing ACKS, I wrote a series of essays for The Escapist about how to build and run a sandbox campaign. Here are the links:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/checkfortraps/7797-Tops-and-Bottoms

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/checkfortraps/7864-Go-Go-Gazette

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/tabletop/checkfortraps/7928-Worlds-in-Motion

Here is my basic set of reminders and high points.

Just Be Lazy!

And, since we have no 'like' function...I will just post and say I like many of these.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;838861It seems like I need to run my Vampire Dark Ages
Game as a Sandbox.

Judging from that other thread, where you seem disappointed at your players' lack of initiative, I'm not sure your players are a good fit for the style (which assumes proactive players as the chief driving force of the game). But if you want to run a sandbox, well, it's worth a try!

Quote from: PencilBoy99;838861Given that I've never run one, what are the best books and GM sections of books on how to run a sandbox?

In any case, read up on what these other fine gentlemen have written and linked. I can vouch for SineNomine and amacris as I tend to buy everything these two put out. SineNomine's post is concise and gold. Alex's essays are great, even if I find his style way more hardcore than mine (which incidentally is why I love his ruleset -- it's like having a smarter kid do your homework for you while you and your friends slack off ). LordVreeg has nearly three decades' worth of experience with the format and you can take his principles to heart.

Justin Alexander, who also posts here, has written extensively on the subject as well.

But in the end it's about crafting a piece of an imaginary world with interesting NPCs with agendas of theor own, and offering the PCs opportunities to interact with these agents and their plots.

Quote from: The Butcher;838928Judging from that other thread, where you seem disappointed at your players' lack of initiative, I'm not sure your players are a good fit for the style (which assumes proactive players as the chief driving force of the game). B

QFT.  I have played with groups that WANTED linear campaigns.  We didn't have a lot of time to game, and they didn't ant to be faced with too many choices that they  might not ultimately find fulfilling.  They much preferred a linear approach from their GM.  So I give 'em what they want.

Just reading about those triggers on the Escapist site. That's what I miss in nWoD. Old WoD games had big global triggers when you first entered the setting. Vampire the Masquerade has Gehenna and the wars between the Camarilla, the Anarchs and the Sabbat. I think playing vampire the Dark Ages triggers the War of the Princes.

So those old games have more world in motion build in than the newer ones. I think that's great if you want your campaign to become more epic over time. If you want it smaller you should add local triggers to your setting.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;838944Just reading about those triggers on the Escapist site. That's what I miss in nWoD. Old WoD games had big global triggers when you first entered the setting. Vampire the Masquerade has Gehenna and the wars between the Camarilla, the Anarchs and the Sabbat. I think playing vampire the Dark Ages triggers the War of the Princes.

So those old games have more world in motion build in than the newer ones. I think that's great if you want your campaign to become more epic over time. If you want it smaller you should add local triggers to your setting.

So much of it is based on the length and depth of the campaign you plan.  Event Chains, large and small, should be connected somewhat, and should be set up so that player intervention matters, even when you give the impression it does not.

"The World In Motion is critical for Immersion, so create 'event chains' that happen at all levels of setting design. The players need to feel like things are happening and will happen with or without them. They need to feel like they can affect the outcome, but that these events have weight of their own. Event-chains need velocity, not just speed.
Cause and effect from an event-chain cements the feeling of setting-weight and the march of time to the players. It's not enough to have an election in a town, the effect of that election must be there when the players return to that town.  It is not enough that a band of trolls and giants is spotted, what devestation due they cauase and what actions do the locals take, and from there what wreckage and ruin?"
 

"It is the interesting task of the GM to create a feel in the world that everything, every event-chain,  is happening around the PCs without the least concern whether the PCs join or not, while in reality making sure the game and these event chains are actually predicated on PC volition.  The setting consistency should never be compromised, and a good GM should be able to keep both setting and PC needs logical at the same time "
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Quote from: PencilBoy99;838861It seems like I need to run my Vampire Dark Ages
Game as a Sandbox. Given that I've never run one, what are the best books and GM sections of books on how to run a sandbox?

Ummm...maybe you could tell us a bit about the scope of your campaign.  A lot of the advice I'm seeing here – that I recognize anyway – has a lot more to do with PCs moving freely across a large environment.  Vampire – at least my understanding of it (I'm not a fan) – has always been a lot more personal horror and vampire court politics between the rival clans; machiavellian scheming and maneuvering through the courts of power.  I'm not sure how different DAV is, without the masquerade to worry about.  But I'm pretty hex crawling is not going to be that helpful.

Am I right?  Am I wrong?

While it isn't the right era, I would look at Black Vulmea's blog.  His game is very urban centric (Paris) where the players have to deal with a fair share of social conflicts and courtly intrigue.  So while the era is different, a lot of the themes should carry over nicely.

Tom

Quote from: LordVreeg;838954"The World In Motion is critical for Immersion, so create 'event chains' that happen at all levels of setting design. The players need to feel like things are happening and will happen with or without them. They need to feel like they can affect the outcome, but that these events have weight of their own. Event-chains need velocity, not just speed."

Crap!  Yes!  This is exactly what I was talking about in my post on the other thread.

To Lord Vreeg, listen!  

Tom