https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellum_omnium_contra_omnes

Man, is there a way to include nested quotes? This is annoying.

Quote from: AsenRG;837369He or she makes so much noise the xenomorph has no issues ambushing him or her. On top of clanking, they get into each other's way, you can't pull them out fast because they tangle, and overall, the benefits are heavily outweighed.

So how many flamethrowers can my character carry without being... encumbered? Can I dual wield flamethrowers? Would it be better to use one flamethrower and carry more fuel instead? I might need some stats for my character to make those kinds of decisions.

QuoteThe character dies as soon as the xenomporph reaches him or her.

In the film, this is pretty much the result. But it stems from an important question "How can we beat the xenomorph?" In hindsight, for a 15 year old movie, we know that getting in a hugging match with the xenomorph is a terrible idea. But the characters didn't know that at first. In fact, they didn't even know the thing would grow up so fast. And when characters in an RPG scenario start asking those kinds of questions, they need more fidelity for the details in order to make decisions in how to handle things. Could the xenomorph be crushed under a shipping container full of space-ore? Or trapped in a closet? Would a bunch of ball bearings in the hallway cause it to trip? GMs and players need details to make those kinds of determinations.

Quote from: tenbones;837965Because it's acknowledging the crass and commerically programmed nature of people within the game. That is what cyberpunk fiction rails about. the desensitization and even alienation created by a purely commercial-surface driven society.

Silverhand is/was part of that as a "celebrity".

Again, I fall back to the position that it's up the GM to make the world come alive. You cant' expect a book to do the work for you, as a GM. You need to read it, absorb it, figure out what you want to do with it and get to the point where you can extemporaneously generate content for it because you understand it. If you're just reading tables, rolling dice, and whiffing scenes out free of context... then yeah, you're going to lose coherence.

That goes for *any* genre of game.

Fair enough, the GM is the guy in charge not the rulebook.

But I think you are reading too much into the Silverhand lyrics.

Augmentation (along with AIs and Cyberspace) is probably the single most recognizable element of cyberpunk.

I think Pondsmith was simply advertising the contents of the book, like
"Hey guys! Wanna play cyborg rebels without a cause? This is it!"
(Hell I did and still do!)

While it is possible to play cyberpunk without cyberware, or fantasy without magic, I think most players would find it odd.

And here is the problem: gamers are gamers. Most people treat cyberware like magic items from vanilla fantasy rpgs and videogames, Pondsmith did not forsee this.

He is mostly a non-fantasy games author, that mindset is probably alien to him.

Quote from: CRKrueger;837966Where's the mechanic in our world that rewards not being a bastard and instead being a decent person?

If your players are the type that always become murder-hobos in D&D because there is no OOC third person personality mechanic to restrain them...

1. Get new players
or
2. Suggest they roleplay.

Society.
Conscience.
Both are mechanics. Some people try to cheat, but it tends to backfire.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;838008So how many flamethrowers can my character carry without being... encumbered?

According to what the people in the movie were doing? One. Since you're playing one of them, one for you, too.
Use it wisely.

QuoteCan I dual wield flamethrowers?

People find dual-wielding anything to be a bad idea, you're not trained. Why even ask?

QuoteWould it be better to use one flamethrower and carry more fuel instead?

Yes. But they're already carrying all the fuel they can.

QuoteI might need some stats for my character to make those kinds of decisions.

I just answered you without needing stats:).

QuoteIn the film, this is pretty much the result. But it stems from an important question "How can we beat the xenomorph?"

And the answer doesn't require stats for the characters.

QuoteIn hindsight, for a 15 year old movie, we know that getting in a hugging match with the xenomorph is a terrible idea. But the characters didn't know that at first.

Tough luck.

QuoteIn fact, they didn't even know the thing would grow up so fast. And when characters in an RPG scenario start asking those kinds of questions, they need more fidelity for the details in order to make decisions in how to handle things.

Why? What does it matter knowing that you can lift 100kgs if you don't know how strong the xenomorph is?
In game terms, you don't know his HP, Attack bonuses and so on. What do the characters' stats matter in this case?
And does your GM allow you to check the Monster Manual during play;)?

QuoteCould the xenomorph be crushed under a shipping container full of space-ore?

Do you have a way to tell? Try it. The mechanics that concern the xenomorph will tell.

QuoteOr trapped in a closet?

We all know that it can break the doors, so no.

QuoteWould a bunch of ball bearings in the hallway cause it to trip?

Rolling a save for the xenomorph still doesn't require any stats.

QuoteGMs and players need details to make those kinds of determinations.

The GM might use those details, or wing it. The players don't need any such details, and they'd actually make it harder to play the unknown.
Xenomorph:
Survive: 1-5 on 1d6 (adjust to 1-4 or 1-3 depending on plan - bad plans fail automatically).
Run away from traps: 1-4 on 1d6.
Avoid getting at a disadvantage: 1-5 on 1d6.
Splash Acid On Nearby Attacker: Automatic.
Cut Through Defensive Spacesuit: 1-2 on 1d6.
Carry Away Victim: Automatic as soon as it's big enough.
Being mislead: 1-3 on 1d6

There's the xenomorph stats.
You don't need more than that. It might be nice, but it's not necessary.

Cyberpunk is pretty interesting, in the sense that it doesn't precisely match any of the truly major novels of the cyberpunk genre, and yet it feels so totally definitive of what Cyberpunk is.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838454Cyberpunk is pretty interesting, in the sense that it doesn't precisely match any of the truly major novels of the cyberpunk genre, and yet it feels so totally definitive of what Cyberpunk is.

  Is that because it reflects the underpinnings of the genre, because it folds in so many elements of it, or simply because it was the formative exposure to the genre for so many fans and future participants?

  Change the nouns in your statement a bit, and you can apply the same statement and questions to D&D.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838454Cyberpunk is pretty interesting, in the sense that it doesn't precisely match any of the truly major novels of the cyberpunk genre, and yet it feels so totally definitive of what Cyberpunk is.

You could say the same about D&D and fantasy, of course. Or Traveller and SF. Or even Eclipse Phase and transhuman SF. Mashing together disparate literary influences into an encompassing setting makes for great gaming.

Quote from: artikid;838030Fair enough, the GM is the guy in charge not the rulebook.

But I think you are reading too much into the Silverhand lyrics.

Funny you should mention that. I don't think I read any of the fluff-text for Silverhand's lyrics. Instead if I used Silverhand in the game - I used Queensryche and "Rage for Order" or "Operation: Mindcrime" to represent the music.

As for the GMing bit - as I said before, we bring with us our experiences to the table. Whatever we consume in a medium we're filling in gaps and context from our experiences. When I read CP2020 - I'd already consumed *all* (actually more) the listed literary sources, including movies, magazines, comics etc. that inspired CP2020. So in speaking about what the game is "about" - I'm only speaking about my synthesis of these ideas. And yeah - I'm pretty solid on what I think and feel cyberpunk is, even before CP2020 landed on my desk.

Whatever the game implies or implicitly states is never free of the GM's perception, in any game. To what degree you want your game to resonate with your players, or boil it down to a rote tactical murder-spree of a game, or anything in between - CP2020 implies all of that. Not one true way. But if you look at the inspiration - it's just that. Inspiration. Why would you ignore it? You're free to of course. But choosing to do that IS a choice, and that comes from your own proclivities as a GM. It doesn't mean you're right in some absolute sense.

Just like I don't give a flying shit if people all want to do a mass-murder simulator for a campaign. Not my cuppa... but if that's what you wanna do...

Quote from: artikid;838030Augmentation (along with AIs and Cyberspace) is probably the single most recognizable element of cyberpunk.

Well it's *an* element. And certainly a pervasive one. There's subtext there that is expressly stated in the game: it comes at a cost. With a direct hit to your Empathy. If you play a game where that's not a big deal - then sure, let the inevitable bullets fly. That kinda shit doesn't happen in my games without a reason.

Quote from: artikid;838030I think Pondsmith was simply advertising the contents of the book, like
"Hey guys! Wanna play cyborg rebels without a cause? This is it!"
(Hell I did and still do!)

Well, without trying to "bigtime you" - he wasn't. Mike's into the genre very much. But hey - you don't have to take my word for it. There's people who play D&D in manners that as Old Geezer points out here all the time - would make St. Gary shit in his pants if he was at their table. Mike's kinda like that about CP2020. It's not Teenagers From Outer-Space hijinks with cyberwear. In fact he's said many times it's not just about the metal. Which is backed up by his inspirations for the game. It's about the disconnection brought about the worship of the disconnection as normal. Sounds high-falutin' - but that's cyberpunk for you. Or not.

Quote from: artikid;838030While it is possible to play cyberpunk without cyberware, or fantasy without magic, I think most players would find it odd.

1) I don't think anyone here is talking about playing CP2020 without Cyberware. 2) It would be odd. Especially since the *vast* majority of the populace has implants as a genre conceit.

The unspoken middle that you're ignoring, and is common in many futuristic settings is the range of gear available under the umbrella "cyberware". Cyberware is regulated just like all technology. It's not like you go down to the local clinic and say "Hey I loved those franken-trodes you installed a couple of days ago. I think I want you to cut my head off and install it in that Omega V Assault Borg body, and I'll take the modular X-ray gatling gun shouldermount options... better give me another set of extra arms and durasteel plating." The degree of prevalance and rarity of "cyberwar" is like "magic". As the GM - you set the tone. If you leave it to your players making the call based on what they subjectively feel based on their reading of a book of gear - then you're not GMing. You're just rolling dice for NPC's.

Quote from: artikid;838030And here is the problem: gamers are gamers. Most people treat cyberware like magic items from vanilla fantasy rpgs and videogames, Pondsmith did not forsee this.

I think you're giving him a LOT ignorance-points he most certainly doesn't deserve. He used to write for TSR (he did the Kara-Tur boxset - ahh the glory days), among other things awesome and fantastical.

See, this is where a little commonsense and jurisprudence comes in as a GM. Just because it has a pricetag on the fully-automatic assault rifle, and just because there's a buncha stats, doesn't mean everyone on the street is allowed to own one. In fact it says pretty clearly the only weapons that ARE legal are pistols. It goes into more detail in the 'Home of the Brave' book (excellent book btw). But again, if the GM says "Fair game" - great!

There are times where it's perfectly rational too. I've had games that took place inbetween the big megaplexes in the wastelands. Who is going to stop you from walking around with an assault rifle there? Better yet - who the fuck is going to care?

This is where the assumptions of the game implied in the book often require some consideration that there is civilization and security sectors and people who live in their dreamy little world. And usually that's not the PC's... so walking into those places armed to the teeth usually has consequences. As I always say in posts like these: CONTEXT IS KING.

Quote from: artikid;838030He is mostly a non-fantasy games author, that mindset is probably alien to him.

This is completely untrue. But I don't hold that against you.

Quote from: RPGPundit;838454Cyberpunk is pretty interesting, in the sense that it doesn't precisely match any of the truly major novels of the cyberpunk genre, and yet it feels so totally definitive of what Cyberpunk is.

Nailed it.

It's a little dash of Rudy Rucker, Simon Green, Bruce Sterling, Walter John Williams, and St. Gibson - frothing around in a stew of Blade Runner.

You decide how to serve it up.

Quote from: tenbones;838744Well, without trying to "bigtime you" - he wasn't. Mike's into the genre very much.

Do you or did you know Maximum Mike? Did you play Cyberpunk with him? I'd love to get some stories about his style. There's so much floating around about Gary Gygax, but I can't find any anecdotes on how Pondsmith ran his games.

I've been wondering if Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads is a good indicator given there's input by a lot of different people.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;838832Do you or did you know Maximum Mike? Did you play Cyberpunk with him? I'd love to get some stories about his style. There's so much floating around about Gary Gygax, but I can't find any anecdotes on how Pondsmith ran his games.

I've been wondering if Listen Up You Primitive Screwheads is a good indicator given there's input by a lot of different people.

Nothing but second-hand gaming information. One of my group members played with him a lot, and did some of the CP2020 writing. *He* had lots of stories about Mike during the heydey of CP2020 and Interface Magazine. So take it with a grain of salt.

I've run into Mike at a couple of con's, shot the shit with him a bunch. We were both at Microsoft at the same time when he "left tabletop" to work on Matrix Online (/shudder).

That said, I'm currently angling to hook up with Maximum Mike on a project. Nothing definite yet - but there's exchanges of communication going on (i.e. nothing I can comment about) nothing set in stone, but progress is being made.

Quote from: tenbones;838904Nothing but second-hand gaming information. One of my group members played with him a lot, and did some of the CP2020 writing. *He* had lots of stories about Mike during the heydey of CP2020 and Interface Magazine. So take it with a grain of salt.

I've run into Mike at a couple of con's, shot the shit with him a bunch. We were both at Microsoft at the same time when he "left tabletop" to work on Matrix Online (/shudder).

That said, I'm currently angling to hook up with Maximum Mike on a project. Nothing definite yet - but there's exchanges of communication going on (i.e. nothing I can comment about) nothing set in stone, but progress is being made.

Assuming everyone feels OK with sharing those, and has the inclination and time, I'd love to hear some of those if either you or your group member are up for it.

I'll ask. Ben isn't currently playing in my group right now but we're in touch.

As for me - I'm possibly being tapped for an unspecified project of Mike's. It's not solid yet. Given my general background in technology, blah blah, jerk jerk jerk, it probably isn't a big shock as to the nature of the possible project.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;838475Is that because it reflects the underpinnings of the genre, because it folds in so many elements of it, or simply because it was the formative exposure to the genre for so many fans and future participants?

  Change the nouns in your statement a bit, and you can apply the same statement and questions to D&D.

Quite, I was just thinking that.

In many ways, that is a defining quality of most of the top RPGs of every genre: they don't slavishly imitate any single example of the genre in question, but somehow capture the key of the style of it all.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;827648Skip the idea of modeling, and let's just talk about rules -- rules define how you do things in the game.  They funnel player action.  

A game, as other people have discussed, where you get experience points for gold piece acquisition and expenditure on whores and mead is qualitatively different than a game where you only get experience points for rolling skills.  Now, it might be that the former game is trying to model sword and sorcery, or it might just be that the game designer didn't want people to hold onto their gold and wanted them to blow it.  

So you've got three levels happening: you've got what the game designer intended the purpose of a rule to be.  You've got the rule as its written, the plain text, which may or may not communicate its purpose.  And you've got how people at tables all around the world take that rule and make it work, and what they use it for.

So my original post, which is partly quoted in the first post in this thread, was about how there's drift between those three steps.

Take Vampire.  Vampire: The Masquerade is ostensibly a game about vampires fighting to keep hold of their humanity in the face of temptations to boil it away in their nightly existence.  You've got a Humanity stat, you've got Virtues, all the quotes in the book are about "Beast I am Lest Beast I Become."  But the majority of players chose to make the game about Godfather with fangs.  It was about vampires being parasites on the face of the world, corrosive elements that corrupt via creating ghouls and amassing power.

That rift, between all the rules and support for what the designers intended, and what people actually played, and the dynamic that creates, that's what fascinates me.  You could say the rules were intended to model the Long Dark Night of the Soul that a vampire experiences, but what people actually used them for was quite different.  And eventually, the play happening at tables affected the direction of the whole line, and by the time you get to Vampire Second edition, the game supported much more of the way people were actually playing it.

This is an interesting point.

In my opinion, if a game strives to promote a theme or behaviour it should do it through both rules and playing advice. Vampire has problems in the two aspect. It's rules while pretty thematic do not tie the intended experience to the personal horror theme in a non-ignorable way. By providing players with a whole gamut of combat-oriented stuff (rules, weapons, disciplines, etc) and allowing characters to progress in power by using this stuff actively and frequently, they end up making the personal horror theme totally ignorable. All the while the book advocates for chronicles created by the GM to lead players by the nose from a prelude to a climax, giving little considerationg to the characters personal struggles and motivations.

I don't know Cyberpunk 2020 well but from the little I've read, it's your typical late 80s game which modeling is limited to skills-rolls & combat and little else. If that's really the case, then yeah, the author failed in achieving his goals (even if lots of people have fun with the game).