Quote from: Christopher Brady;833090I find hard to believe, because of the second poster's comment.  I have no idea if he really did own a game store or not, but the several I went to, if it had (as he stated) Drizzt or Forgotten Realms on the cover, it was sold within hours of being put on the shelves. Meanwhile, Greyhawk stuff used to linger for months.  But as always, anecdote.

And here's something, if Greyhawk is doing so well, why is it in 4 and 5e, they've more or less ditched it for FR?  Right now, they're porting Temple of Elemental Evil, the original adventure which was in Greyhawk over to Forgotten Realms, renamed it Princes of The Apocalypse.  And didn't they do the same for Keep on The Borderlands?  Although, I could be wrong on that one.

And I'm still trying to remember a world sourcebook for Greyhawk, where as I know of several for Forgotten Realms.

Believe or disbelieve at your leisure.  Take it up with the person who actually had the job of managing Greyhawk at Wizards: it ran a close second to FR.  Which is also an answer to your question.  A close second.  This isn't 1978, nor 1985, nor 1995 nor 2005 when even the mighty Wizards of the Coast can run multiple campaign settings.  You seem to have moved the goalposts on Greyhawk from "least popular" to "well it was 2nd therefore it wasn't popular at all was it".  Make up your mind.

Quote from: Gabriel2;833074I'd say Birthright or Red Steel.

I've only ever met one person outside the internet who had ever heard of Red Steel.  I never met anyone outside the internet who had heard of Birthright.

I guess Hollow World is another one.  I had honestly forgotten it existed.  I think back in the day I just thought it was another name for the BECMI Known World (I don't know why, I just did).

I'd also say Council of Wyrms is not too popular.  Everyone I knew who got it had no interest in the setting, just in the idea of playing Dragons.

At least people had heard of Al Quadim.  I don't know anyone who ever played in that setting, but many people I used to talk D&D with had heard of it.

Greyhawk was one of those that wasn't really popular as a setting.  Greyhawk was just a place where a lot of modules took place in and was kind of a blank slate sort of place.  People could say they played in "Greyhawk" but that didn't really have any effect on their settings.   I guess the Known World of BECMI was the same way.  It was entirely different from the Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, or Dark Sun players who really paid attention to those settings.

BirthRight was a victim of the time it released. I know a lot of folks in real life that play it because it's my group. I think for my age range it has a bigger impact.

Maztica?

I'm bringing it up because I saw it on the shelf at my FLGS exactly once, many years ago, and then it went off my radar. Never saw anyone online or off- play it or talk about playing it.

Was it any good? Was there any support for it?

Or did I just imagine the whole thing?

Quote from: thedungeondelver;833183Believe or disbelieve at your leisure.  Take it up with the person who actually had the job of managing Greyhawk at Wizards: it ran a close second to FR.  Which is also an answer to your question.  A close second.  This isn't 1978, nor 1985, nor 1995 nor 2005 when even the mighty Wizards of the Coast can run multiple campaign settings.  You seem to have moved the goalposts on Greyhawk from "least popular" to "well it was 2nd therefore it wasn't popular at all was it".  Make up your mind.

    On the other hand, it was the first and second year of a heavily promoted relaunch vs. the eleventh or twelfth year of a long-running setting, and WotC heavily pushed the D&D nostalgia during the 25th Anniversary year (1999), which was also the second year of Greyhawk. Whether Greyhawk would have had legs or not is uncertain; I'm inclined to suspect it might have, but contractual requirements, novels, and other factors made the Realms the better choice for WotC's new "only one supported setting" philosophy.

  I'm only speculating here, but given the fanbases, I also suspect that they may have felt Realms fans would do a better job rolling with 3E's controversial changes to the setting mechanics (dwarf wizards! Half-orc paladins!), while Greyhawk was better left in the hands of fans who could take or leave that stuff in a minimally described and Living Campaign-driven setting.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833149Err, I've got my AD&D Ravenloft black box right here and I'm looking at it right now to make sure I'm not misremembering anything. Halflings are rare but they have always been in the setting. The rules allow their presence and there is a country in the core where a citizen population of them exists (Darkon). There is no rule restricting armor, and NPCs are listed wearing scale mail. Although many spells are significantly altered, Magic Missile is untouched and perfectly legal.

You are entirely right, what I lamented was the tone more than anything - the Halflings, the pseudo-medieval anachronisms were kind of down-played and used to support the setting's atmosphere more than anything. For me Ravenloft was curses and vampires, forbidden lore and medieval superstition.

The D20 edition changed this by trying to facilitate heroic fantasy' roleplaying. Gone was the mood, the whole feel of the plane. Instead of shady vampires in capes you had a focus on the guys in armor, the magic missiles, the halflings... the subtly of the setting was no more. Of course two gamers can give you three versions of the same setting they both remember with perfect clarity, we two apparently saw different things in the Ravenloft setting

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833090I find hard to believe

Sorry, couldn't resist. For what it's worth, I'm just as surprised.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;833185Maztica?

I'm bringing it up because I saw it on the shelf at my FLGS exactly once, many years ago, and then it went off my radar. Never saw anyone online or off- play it or talk about playing it.

Was it any good? Was there any support for it?

Or did I just imagine the whole thing?

Maztica was terrible; an incredibly lazy copy of the real world.  WotC gave away the pdf for a long time.

Among the Forgotten Realms expansions, though, I suspect Maztica got significantly more gameplay than the Horde.

I see this as an unfair question because numerous factors existed at various times in TSR's existence that determined whether a certain setting received marketing dollars or better authors.

I remember Birthright arriving when TSR and 2e was waning, but I had friends who swear that Birthright was an incredibly fun setting with fresh exciting ideas.

I actually ran multiple Hollow World campaigns. I really loved blending that setting with Ravenloft. I did not run the setting RAW, but FOR ME, the Hollow World ideas really lent themselves to a Dreamlands tone for horror where the PCs encountered peoples stuck in a recurring living dream and if the PCs lingered too long, the dream would devour them as well.

I had this rule that each night you slept in a realm, you woke up with more and more gear that matched the realm. AKA, in the Hollow World's faux Egypt, you would awaken to your sword becoming a Khopesh and the female PC would find themselves painting black lines around their eyes.

It was a creepy reminder that the Hollow World was Not-Okay and they needed to find their way out...or pick their favorite dream realm which is how a couple PCs retired.

Quote from: Gold Roger;833169The utterly unknown Ghostwalk.

An official wotc released campaign setting few seem to be aware of and absolutely no one seems to care for.

That's probably it. I notice it's the only other real (objective) contender mentioned here besides Pelinore. Even Red Steel and Jakandor got more product support and brand awareness. Only other real competitor I can think of is Dragon Fist, but I don't remember how closely the setting is tied to Shadowfist the CCG, which could effect popularity recognition.

Council of Worms got a box set and revised hard cover reprint. Mahasarpa is a free pdf offered supplement to OA 3e — I guess it counts, but Pelinore was from TSR's UK division in Imagine magazine, so you had to pay for it at some point. Diablo and Conan were small releases, but they have mass recognition. Can't think of anything else that comes close to Pelinore, Ghostwalk, and Dragon Fist.

Quote from: The Butcher;833191

Sorry, couldn't resist. For what it's worth, I'm just as surprised.

Except I didn't lie.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;833249Except I didn't lie.

I don't think he's saying you did, I question the source.  Lisa Stevens may have overstated the case.  Or she could have told the truth.  The issue for me, is that I'm trying to remember anything that was Greyhawk specific that wasn't an adventure, whereas I have several 2e books on various parts of the realms, including the old Undermountain Box Set.

If someone could point me to some Greyhawk box sets or books in the 2e era, I'd appreciate it.  I'm honestly curious.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833258If someone could point me to some Greyhawk box sets or books in the 2e era, I'd appreciate it.  I'm honestly curious.

The City of Greyhawk boxed set was a 1e/2e crossover product descibing the city and surrounding area.  It was decent but not great.

From the Ashes boxed set was the main campaign setting for 2e.  It describes the world in the immediate aftermath of the Greyhawk Wars and has a dark tone with evil forces everywhere.  I like it a lot.  Carl Sergeant was the author, look for his stuff.

The Marklands is a soft cover regional setting book for the two main good-ish kingdoms.  Both have many problems for the PCs to embroil themselves in.  Very well done, another Sergeant book.

Iuz the Evil is a soft cover regional setting book for the demigod's empire.  Another well done book with lots of hooks.  Again by Sergeant.

Ivid the Undying was an unpublished regional setting book for the former lands of the Great Kingdom.  WotC released it for free online.  Typing it into google will probably get you a legal copy.  The best of the 2e era Greyhawk books, just fantastic.  The last of Sergeant's works.

The Scarlet Brotherhood is a shitty regional setting book for the Brotherhood, Amedio, and Hepmonaland.  Terrible and derivitive of real world shit.  Avoid it.

Against the Giants was a regional setting book disguised as an adventure for the giant controlled land of Geoff.  It was OK.

The Adventure Begins was a soft cover campaign setting book rebooting things after a few years hiatus.  As much as I love Roger Moores easy writing style, he took away the darkness of the setting and reset much of this gains that evil had made without adding new hooks, thereby reducing the amount of adventure available.  Also not nearly as complete as other main campaign setting books/boxed sets, so I would not use this as a primary source.

This is all off the top of my head, almost certainly missing some.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;833013Lol. I recall a Ravenloft adventure (might have been from the shadows but could be wrong) where the players are beheaded at the beginning.

That was my first exposure to Ravenloft. My character was the one beheaded.


Lame.

Quote from: Gold Roger;833169The utterly unknown Ghostwalk.

An official wotc released campaign setting few seem to be aware of and absolutely no one seems to care for.

I had it and lost it. Was pretty neet. But yeah. Obscure as per WOTCs standard substandard marketing.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833258I don't think he's saying you did, I question the source.  Lisa Stevens may have overstated the case.  Or she could have told the truth.  The issue for me, is that I'm trying to remember anything that was Greyhawk specific that wasn't an adventure, whereas I have several 2e books on various parts of the realms, including the old Undermountain Box Set.

If someone could point me to some Greyhawk box sets or books in the 2e era, I'd appreciate it.  I'm honestly curious.

OK:

The City of Greyhawk
TSR: AD&D 2 (1989 Box)


1990

MC5: Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk Adventures Appendix
TSR: AD&D 2 (1990 Looseleaf)
Night Watch
TSR: Fiction (1990 )

1991

Greyhawk Wars
TSR: Generic 1 (1991 Box)

1992

From the Ashes [From the Ashes (585-590 CY)]
TSR: AD&D 2 (1992 Box)


1994

Siege of the Tower
TSR: Fiction (1994 )

1995

Bigby's Curse
TSR: Fiction (1995 )
The Oerth Journal #1
The Oerth Journal: AD&D 2 (1995 PDF)
The Oerth Journal #2
Council of Greyhawk: Generic 1 (1995 PDF)

1996

The Oerth Journal #3
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (1996 PDF)
The Oerth Journal #4
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (1996 PDF)

1997

The Oerth Journal #5
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (1997 PDF)
The Oerth Journal #6
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (1997 PDF)

1998

The Adventure Begins
TSR: AD&D 2 (1998 )
The Oerth Journal #7
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (1998 PDF)
The Oerth Journal #8
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (1998 PDF)
Player's Guide to Greyhawk

1999

Against the Giants
TSR: Fiction (1999 )
Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff [Geoff, giants]
TSR: AD&D 2 (1999 )
The Oerth Journal #9
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (1999 PDF)
The Oerth Journal #10: Discovery & Exploration
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (1999 PDF)
The Scarlet Brotherhood
TSR: AD&D 2 (1999 )
White Plume Mountain
TSR: Fiction (1999 )

2000

Descent into the Depths of the Earth
TSR: Fiction (2000 )
Council of Greyhawk: AD&D 2 (2000 PDF)