Quote from: Larsdangly;830065Not at all! That BFRPG stuff is all cool and I own and like quite a bit of it. I'ld say my favorite is Barrowmaze — nothing particularly wild eyed or hip about it, but the scope, creativity and production values are awesome. Plus it's an excellent adventure setting for any level. Beginning twerps can nibble around the edges, poking into outer tombs and dashing in and back out of the main dungeon, with only a 90 % chance of getting murdered. And high level parties can probe the depths of the dungeon in search of a big gooey demon to eat them.

Cheers, I've heard of it and I think I'll check it out... (edit: rpgnow says it's currently unavailable).

BTW one key I found to successful sandboxing is to NOT USE MINIATURES. I'm a big minis junky and have thousands of the little buggers, but using them can really impede my ability to follow the players wherever they decide to go, to whip out adventure site #87 that is perfect for what the PCs are planning, but that I had no idea they'd be going to until tonight. With my Classic D&D sandbox I'm compromising by using Paizo pawns, they are a lot easier to carry around and people worry a lot less when they're not perfectly representational. Plus a couple blank flipmats for sketching out any adventure site - but remembering not to use them when they're not necessary.

Quote from: S'mon;830059I find blogs work well for keeping track of stuff, though pencil & paper notes work too.

One good thing about sandboxing is that players can be relied on to keep track of what's important, because 'what's important' = 'what interests the players'. Whereas in a linear game importance is pre-set & the GM needs to track it.

I do keep regular blog posts on my game and that has been pretty handy when I need to check on something that happened several sessions back. Still nothing beats having your NPCs and location material all organized and up to date.

Yes, it isn't the end of the world if you lose track of something or forget about something that no one really cared about. Players tend to remember the stuff that matters. Every once in a while though you can let a vital thread slip by.

Quote from: S'mon;830063The sandbox GM definitely wants to give the impression of stuff going on independent of the PCs. This may be procedurally generated with random tables, or it may be pre-plotted. Usually the best approach is to use both. I tend to use dice to find out if there is an encounter, but that encounter may be selected by me, or rolled from a table. If rolled from a table it may end up tying back into a pre-plotted event, eg last night the random bandit who (after some interaction, & a few Thief player queries re possible tattoos) turned out to be a Veiled Society agent seeking a pail of zombie cow milk from the cursed mansion...  I already had the "Veiled Society wants the PC Thief to get them zombie cow milk" plot at the back of my mind after reading 'The Zombraire's Estate' in BFRPG Adventure Anthology 1 that morning, but George the Cowardly Bandit and his flunkeys hiding out near the ruined halfling manor because they were too scared to take on the cursed mansion came into existence in-play through the luck of the dice, player questions, and GM decisions.

It can also be reactive to player behavior and other events. What works for me is thinking through my NPCs and groups. So rather than say "I want this to happen in the campaign because it would be interesting" I say "Lady Plum Blossom wants the three finger manual so she can extinguish the Mystic Sword Sect". I find that distinctions, though seemingly minor, leads to less "set piece" style play and to more events that feel natural and can change appropriately as things develop in the campaign (If lady plum blossom is intent on ambushing the players for the manual, it might not happen at exactly the inn, under the exact circumstances she wants, she may need to adapt).

I find random tables help as well. I like a mixture of random tables, reactive NPCs and just throwing things in that feel right or are a natural outgrowth of something that has already been developing.

Quote from: LordVreeg;830030The best sandboxes are; or at least feel, very dynamic.  They should be the opposite of static, except for certain points.  

and as to the organization and notetaking, I add pages and such to the http://celtricia.pbworks.com/w/page/14955575/FrontPageCeltricia Wiki.  I also let the players add onto their own pages, so that they help me remember what is important to them.  
This is the player page for the Collegium Game, about 2/3 done by me now and 1/3 done by the pcs.  Most of what I do is add the new session notes.

I wish I was more wiki savvy. I still use a three ring notebook for everything (and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger the longer the campaign goes (I've even had to split them into two notebooks in the past). It is a little ungainly but I find I just never adapted to running games from online platforms for some reason. One of the GMs in my group though is very good with computers and it seems to lighten his load considerably.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;830073I wish I was more wiki savvy. I still use a three ring notebook for everything (and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger the longer the campaign goes (I've even had to split them into two notebooks in the past). It is a little ungainly but I find I just never adapted to running games from online platforms for some reason. One of the GMs in my group though is very good with computers and it seems to lighten his load considerably.

Heh.
The Celtricia wiki is over 1250 pages.
It lightens my load a lot.  And with a searchable wiki, things are easier to find on the fly.  PLus, you can do things like Indexes.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;830038I think he's interpreting "sandbox" as a purposeless, activity-less game world where the players just wander around. Like touring around a park. Or just a literal sandbox. There's nothing there but what you make out of the sand. In that respect, "sandbox" is kind of a misleading term.

I didn't think I was interpreting anything? My definition of Sandbox differs in some significant ways from LordVreeg's. The Sandbox games I've been in and heard described in any details have been, not purposeless but had no focused purpose. They were, essentially, simulations that the PCs were put in the middle of to make their own way. Any action or adventures (or lack of) stemmed almost completely from their choices with them occasionally running into things by chance. There were no overarching things like an undead invasion. I think most of the people playing in those games would consider things like counter to the spirit of "Sandbox" as they liked to play them.  

They worked well for players that were strongly proactive and/or had characters with pretty open ended motives such as professional "Adventurer" archetypes. For people with different preferences and ability (like myself) they don't work as well.

Quote from: Nexus;830100I didn't think I was interpreting anything? My definition of Sandbox differs in some significant ways from LordVreeg's. The Sandbox games I've been in and heard described in any details have been, not purposeless but had no focused purpose.

GM's new to running their games in Sandbox-mode for the first time often end up here. Some old-school GM's still do it. I'd say it's leaving lots and lots of potential on the floor and does put an extra amount of onus on the PC's (which isn't necessarily bad if you a group like that).

Quote from: Nexus;830100They were, essentially, simulations that the PCs were put in the middle of to make their own way. Any action or adventures (or lack of) stemmed almost completely from their choices with them occasionally running into things by chance. There were no overarching things like an undead invasion. I think most of the people playing in those games would consider things like counter to the spirit of "Sandbox" as they liked to play them.

To that I say... Nope. A "good" GM does what works. Sticking to JUST the interactions of the PC's and offering nothing of interest coming from NPC's sort of falls flat to me. What's the point of having a sandbox if your NPC's don't have their own motivations? I think this is an important part of running a "better" Sandbox. This puts the onus on the GM to make their Sandbox a living and breathing world.

Running the Village of Hommlet in Sandbox? what if you slap a dungeon underneath the place and in your head ghouls are digging their way out and abducting villagers in parallel while your PC's are doing whatever they want to do? What if the PC's never discover it? (the answer: no harm no foul unless they come back to Hommlet and it's Ghoul City Baby!) But if they DO figure it out - then boom! you have instant interaction. the GM just has to know WHY an event is happening. It's not binary. Everything should have a reason.

And yes this requires that a GM give some thought to how their world runs in order to pull it off. It's not railroading either - PC's can always say "FUCK THIS we're out!" and go to the Kingdom of Dinglestan a few hexes away. And they can tell the authorities there that Hommlet is overrun with Ghouls, and you can footnote it in your notes later in case you ever want to do something with that.

I'm running a 5e Spelljamming campaign right now. One of my players mentioned our current game is revisiting elements that have affected our current game from 1996, and over 150-years of game-time has gone by. Since then - gods have died, nations have burned to the ground, nations have risen, a few genocides, a couple of new Gods have been born, and all of Mystra's Chosen are dead.

I say this as an example of BIG EVENTS can most certainly happen in a Sandbox and the PC's can change the course of those events - and you *should* if they can pull it off.

Quote from: Nexus;830100They worked well for players that were strongly proactive and/or had characters with pretty open ended motives such as professional "Adventurer" archetypes. For people with different preferences and ability (like myself) they don't work as well.

Yeah - if you have players that aren't pro-active you need to scale accordingly with your events.

Quote from: tenbones;830106To that I say... Nope.

Say "nope" to what precisely?

Quote from: LordVreeg;830076Heh.
The Celtricia wiki is over 1250 pages.
It lightens my load a lot.  And with a searchable wiki, things are easier to find on the fly.  PLus, you can do things like Indexes.

I should definitely look into shifting to a wiki at some point. These days a lot of my campaign material ends up in stuff we publish though. Does the wiki platform you use claim any IP ownership of stuff you post there?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;830071I do keep regular blog posts on my game and that has been pretty handy when I need to check on something that happened several sessions back. Still nothing beats having your NPCs and location material all organized and up to date.

One thing that helps...I created an NPC file online. When I create a new NPC ahead of time I put them in the file before play occurs. If I create a new NPC during the game, I create an electronic version before the next session and put it in the file. If changes occur to an NPC I make a note in their file before the next session. Especially noting any relation to the PCs. That system works well for me.

QuoteYes, it isn't the end of the world if you lose track of something or forget about something that no one really cared about. Players tend to remember the stuff that matters. Every once in a while though you can let a vital thread slip by.

My players are pretty bad at note taking. And none of our memories are what they once were. GM notes and write ups are pretty important for our continuity.

Quote from: Bren;830118One thing that helps...I created an NPC file online. When I create a new NPC ahead of time I put them in the file before play occurs. If I create a new NPC during the game, I create an electronic version before the next session and put it in the file. If changes occur to an NPC I make a note in their file before the next session. Especially noting any relation to the PCs. That system works well for me.

I do something similar, but in word and end up printing them again before each session after making updates.

QuoteMy players are pretty bad at note taking. And none of our memories are what they once were. GM notes and write ups are pretty important for our continuity.

Memories definitely not as strong as they were before.

Quote from: Nexus;830100I didn't think I was interpreting anything? My definition of Sandbox differs in some significant ways from LordVreeg's. The Sandbox games I've been in and heard described in any details have been, not purposeless but had no focused purpose. They were, essentially, simulations that the PCs were put in the middle of to make their own way. Any action or adventures (or lack of) stemmed almost completely from their choices with them occasionally running into things by chance. There were no overarching things like an undead invasion. I think most of the people playing in those games would consider things like counter to the spirit of "Sandbox" as they liked to play them.  

They worked well for players that were strongly proactive and/or had characters with pretty open ended motives such as professional "Adventurer" archetypes. For people with different preferences and ability (like myself) they don't work as well.

Well, I don't claim to be 'right', but as you can see on this thread, there is some level of agreement that many people feel a sandbox is defined by the prioritization of player agency over plot.
It is foolish and boring to create a setting without World in Motion, and huge large, DivSet situations, with motivated NPCs.
What makes a game a sandbox is the lack of railroad and the prioritization of player agency; but not a lack of consequence to that agency.

I have had PCs totally go off the rails and chase sidelines to historical stories; and it is my job in a sandbox not to 'get them back on the rails', but to honesty play the responses of the rest of the world to their actions, and let them deal with that.   What makes it a sandbox is the lack of rails and my willingness to move with the and just have the world respond to what they want to do.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;830115I should definitely look into shifting to a wiki at some point. These days a lot of my campaign material ends up in stuff we publish though. Does the wiki platform you use claim any IP ownership of stuff you post there?

No, thank god.

And they get easier and easier to work with.  And you have permissions so pcs can't see things, and all your spells and stuff can be there, so all your pcs can build spell books of clickable links...
So, yeah, lots of advantages.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;830120I do something similar, but in word and end up printing them again before each session after making updates.

Same for me. Each NPC is a separate 8.5x5.5 sheet with a picture or photo in the upper right, But I don't reprint them that often. Way too many NPCs for me to afford to do that after every change.

I used to keep all the NPCs in one MS-Word file, but the graphics and page count made the file size too large to be useful or completely stable.

QuoteMemories definitely not as strong as they were before.

Yet another down side of aging.

Quote from: Bren;830129Same for me. Each NPC is a separate 8.5x5.5 sheet with a picture or photo in the upper right, But I don't reprint them that often. Way too many NPCs for me to afford to do that after every change.

I used to keep all the NPCs in one MS-Word file, but the graphics and page count made the file size too large to be useful or completely stable.

Yet another down side of aging.

make each one a page in the wiki.  I do that with NPCS and notable monsters, so that I can call them up at will, and also, add on histories, etc.

And Because of that aging thing, I am still backloading pc notes into the Wiki.