Quote from: artikid;826867You can have no skills and just ability checks under such a system just as well.

Right, but not the roll under kind (sorry--I was unclear).  I think a lot of folks like the numbers. Of course, if you don't find some way to make them come into play, they're useless.

Isn't the OSR-bashing rather dated?

I have a substantive question, related to Phillip's post above.

Since AD&D's ability-generation methods inflate scores, but the effects of ability scores are then recalibrated based on higher averages (in general), what is the point?

I can think of a few:

1. AD&D still uses 3d6 for normal humans, so there's a difference you don't get in the OD&D/Basic branch. (Along with the concept of zero-level.)
2. The effects may not be calibrated identically, so e.g. maybe the threshold for experience bonuses for high scores is close to the Basic one, while the task bonuses may be different. (Don't have any books in front of me.)
3. The overall effect of the AD&D method may be to reduce the incidence of penalties without increasing the incidence of bonuses, and without increasing the average (or median) stat-based modifier.

Then there's the silly rationale, "goes to 11"--it's just nicer to have double-digit scores even if the net effect is no different.

And finally the organic development theory--bonuses were introduced in Greyhawk, and Gygax simply did a nip-and-tuck from there to get the effect he wanted, without considering that there was a simpler approach if you start from a blank slate.

Quote from: cranebump;826872Right, but not the roll under kind (sorry--I was unclear).

Yes you can if you use a different dice than the d20. B/X used a d6 to solve many things like spotting secret doors and traps, or opening doors.

So an ability check would just be roll 1d6 lower than or equal to your ability score.

You can make it work with ability negative scores as well, or scores that exceed 6, simply using an open-ended roll system kinda like the one ICE uses for MERP or Rolemaster.

Quote from: artikid;826878Yes you can if you use a different dice than the d20. B/X used a d6 to solve many things like spotting secret doors and traps, or opening doors.

So an ability check would just be roll 1d6 lower than or equal to your ability score.

You can make it work with ability negative scores as well, or scores that exceed 6, simply using an open-ended roll system kinda like the one ICE uses for MERP or Rolemaster.

I think you mean roll below target # + Mod? Is that right?

Yeah, you can do it that way. The only thing I can see that makes that less desirable is that is the range of mods might be narrower than the range of scores. Having a +1 in a skill on a d6 roll where '1' is a success grants a 33% chance of success (2 in 6). The B/X 13-15 score range that grants the +1, however, grants a 65-75% chance of success, if you're just rolling under. I'm sure you can modify that stuff to fit, but you have the scores, why not use them? (On that, I'd rather have people roll a d20, add the score, with 20 being the target number).

It's all preference, obviously. I've gone further and further away from rolling anything other than what the books allows, so we're using a lot of d6 rolling, by RAW. I guess the scores are less relevant, but people still don't mind rolling them. There's still some ability damage in the game here and there where they can be somewhat relevant that way, I guess.

Quote from: Arminius;826877Since AD&D's ability-generation methods inflate scores, but the effects of ability scores are then recalibrated based on higher averages (in general), what is the point?

I think the problem result from that much of early edition D&D is reactive instead of proactive as in the author is working towards some master design.

Basically the D&D rules came about because Gygax adapted Arneson's rules and over several iterations developed through playing Greyhawk came out with the final OD&D rules. Development didn't stop there resulting in Greyhawk and the later supplements.

D&D become wildy popular causing TSR and Gygax to be bombarded with questions and requests. Gygax also has a group of people to work with generating ideas of their own. He mashes this together into AD&D 1st edition.

A lot of the addition originate from the desire to customize characters to one's own taste. Because tabletop roleplaying was so new, players first instinct was to go for more rules. Gygax was not immune this despite originating the game. So in the supplements and later AD&D, he goes for more rules. One of those new rules is the new ability score scale. But since things were going fast and furious it was bolted on top of the original design in AD&D.

You are correct in pointing out that humans rolled with 3d6 are distinctly different and less powerful than character rolled with one of the alternatives. But I think it was more by accident than something deliberately done.

I think it works well for campaigns where the character are special people destined to be heroes. Not so well for a more low key gritty campaign, for that I think the OD&D setup works better or a tamped down ability score scale.

The heart of the problem is the idea that you need rules for everything in tabletop roleplaying and that only if we had a better design it would fix everything.

Sometimes a better design does help. AD&D 2nd edition kits certainly helped with customizing characters, and the redesigned D&D 3.0 was brilliant in making highly customized character in a game still recognizable as D&D.

The resurgence of interest in the oldest edition of D&D, the rise of games like Fate, and the general interest in RPGs with simpler mechanics taught people that you don't need formal rules to cover everything. That sometimes less is better. That much of what we think we need rules for can be handled by just writing it down in natural language and roleplaying accordingly.

The OSR was one of the pioneers in this and a major influence on why D&D 5e turned out the way it did.

My view is that is great that it happened and that its best benefit is that for me it feels like the range of RPGs is complete. When I want the detail I can use GURPS, if want to go light I can go with Swords & Wizardry or D&D 5e. If want lighter still I can go with Fate or Microlite.

Quote from: cranebump;826882I think you mean roll below target # + Mod? Is that right?

Yeah, you can do it that way. The only thing I can see that makes that less desirable is that is the range of mods might be narrower than the range of scores. Having a +1 in a skill on a d6 roll where '1' is a success grants a 33% chance of success (2 in 6). The B/X 13-15 score range that grants the +1, however, grants a 65-75% chance of success, if you're just rolling under. I'm sure you can modify that stuff to fit, but you have the scores, why not use them? (On that, I'd rather have people roll a d20, add the score, with 20 being the target number).

It's all preference, obviously. I've gone further and further away from rolling anything other than what the books allows, so we're using a lot of d6 rolling, by RAW. I guess the scores are less relevant, but people still don't mind rolling them. There's still some ability damage in the game here and there where they can be somewhat relevant that way, I guess.

Yes it's all preference of course.

What I meant is just roll under score: with abilities ranging from 1 up (no limit).
So a Strength of 3 means roll 3 or less on 1d6.
Str 6? You fail on 6 and any subsequent roll of 2 or more.
Str 7? You fail on 6 and any subsequent roll of 3 or more.
Str 8? You fail on 6 and any subsequent roll of 4 or more.... etc... etc... etc..


However this can work with any range: a Str of -1? roll 1 and then 5 or less to succeed
Str -2? roll 1 and then 4 or less to succeed.
Why abolish the scores/modifiers dichotomy? To have a cleaner character sheet and mechanics.

But then, again it's all a matter of taste.

For example, as much as I love D&D in all its forms, I could never stand Saving Throws as separate from ability score checks.
Or HP as separate from CON.
In these fields I find myself more at home with T&T.

Quote from: artikid;826890For example, as much as I love D&D in all its forms, I could never stand Saving Throws as separate from ability score checks.
Or HP as separate from CON.

I like how Microlite did HP's, with your STR (which doubles as your CON score) serving as the base for HP's. I agree the original save categories are wonky, though they do fit the spelunking/exploration mentality of the original game (when it came to threats, at least). That said, M20's STR, DEX, MIND covers just about everything.

Gamma World 1e  for me +1 per point over 15.

Quote from: JeremyR;826739The OSR is a lot like Puritianism.

The original game is the one true game, anything else is heretical. Especially AD&D. 4d6 drop 1? How dare people want high ability scores They should be burned at the stake.

Though of course, not as bad as the Thief class. Apparently that's when the game went downhill...

  Nah. There's a small, vocal and annoying subset of the OSR that's like that, but they're about as representative of the hobby as the Elite Storytellers or fanatic SJWs over at TBP.

  Personally, I see the OSR as largely the creative destruction of AD&D 1E's pretense of "One Game to Rule Them All." But it should be noted that I'm not a member of the OSR by any stretch (although my gaming for the past year or so has been decidedly 'old school'--Star Wars d6 2E and AD&D 2E. )

Quote from: Arminius;826877Isn't the OSR-bashing rather dated?

Some people long for the lost  Golden Age of OSR bashing.

QuoteI have a substantive question, related to Phillip's post above.

Since AD&D's ability-generation methods inflate scores, but the effects of ability scores are then recalibrated based on higher averages (in general), what is the point?

I think the abilit scores weren't inflated primarily because of the bonuses at all, but because of the addition of minimum scores. In OD&D, you can play a Fighter with Str 3, or an M-U with Int 3. It didn't matter, other than to slow down advancement a tad. AD&D adds  minimum scores for each class and race. We also see this in one of the classic lines,  B/X I think, at least for races. I always thought of that as a big mistake.

Quote from: languagegeek;826741Maybe it's just easier if each Ability Score has the same mod ranges – 16 in whatever Ability Score is +2.

This is precisely why I like the scores in (B/X-derived) ACKS - because modifiers are consistent. Which also makes it easy for me to write a shorthand for NPCs where I just list the ones that have a modifier.

For example:

Spoiler

Saskia - originally one of Rhyanidd's tenant farmers from home, the group's groom and the closest thing to the princess' valet.

Fighter 2. Move 120', AC 4/5, HD 2+2, hp 14, Att 8+/9+, Saves: Fort 12+ Ref 14+ Will 15+, Init +0, Mor +6
Dmg: 1d6+3 (spear), 1d4+2 (dagger), 1d6+3 (javelin)
Str+1, Con+1.
Proficiencies: Seasoned Campaigner, Animal Husbandry, Animal Training (horse), Survival, Riding, Weapon Focus (spear).
Languages: Celtic, Germanic
Equipment: Leather armour (good), medium shield, spear, dagger, javelins (5), medium riding horse, medium war horse. Enc 5/6 stone.

Quote from: Kiero;826939Which also makes it easy for me to write a shorthand for NPCs where I just list the ones that have a modifier.

Here's something easier: Warrior, 16HP, AC 4, Attack: Longsword d8+1

From this statline I know this is a 2nd level Fighter with a +1 to STR. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant, and if it becomes relevant, convert to PC.

Quote from: Brad;826941Here's something easier: Warrior, 16HP, AC 4, Attack: Longsword d8+1

From this statline I know this is a 2nd level Fighter with a +1 to STR. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant, and if it becomes relevant, convert to PC.

That quoted NPC is a PC's hench(wo)man, the extra detail matters given that they could become a PC on a temporary basis without warning. It also means I don't have to memorise or look up any of the derived stats. And in a game where everyone has more than one weapon and spears break, a single weapon damage value isn't enough.

Quote from: Kiero;826945derived stats

Well that's the issue, isn't it? The more complex the character becomes, the more information you need for the stats to be useful. The one I provided is essentially a complete AD&D character. Just giving an example about how the different stat mods are pretty much meaningless after the character is made.