Quote from: jan paparazzi;824972Yes, but that doesn't make me agree. I am talking about a campaign idea. You could have "Defeat the Symbiots." as a campaign idea. Players could play multiple missions in defeating them. Or they could just ignore it. Or join them.

Think of Skyrim. A Imperial-Stormcloak conflict wouldn't be bad for a tabletop campaign idea.

I think Demon's Souls backstory (A king lusts for power and channels souls. It works, but at a price. Now there's a fog rolling into the country bringing demons who devour every one.) is more interesting than "There is a country with fog and demons.".

It's juicier. It makes me wanna play it.

I think you misunderstand me. I'm not disagreeing with any of those points. What I argue is that in addition the characters must themselves be compelling, otherwise the demonic invasion falls flat because we don't care about and empathize with the characters taking part in stopping it.

I don't care about running dungeon crawls in Geist because the characters (to say nothing of the dungeon itself) are boring. They are so divorced from human experience that I can't bring myself to care about them.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;825123I think you misunderstand me. I'm not disagreeing with any of those points. What I argue is that in addition the characters must themselves be compelling, otherwise the demonic invasion falls flat because we don't care about and empathize with the characters taking part in stopping it.

I don't care about running dungeon crawls in Geist because the characters (to say nothing of the dungeon itself) are boring. They are so divorced from human experience that I can't bring myself to care about them.

Ok, agreed. But we never had trouble coming up with cool characters. Usually they are specialized to fill certain roles, like a thief, a conman, a brawler and a hacker for example. And then we give them certain characteristics and some cool background.

The characters were always good. The setting as default in vampire the requiem for example always fell flat for me and I never used most of it. It always felt like a grab bag of different ideas, a few clans, a few factions and some city titels.

All new wod titels either have no backstory (vampire, hunter, changeling) or a backstory that could be true, but who cares anyway because it doesn't really matter (werewolf, mage). Changeling's backstory is just some general information about being abducted by faery, the hedge, your escape and building up your life again. That's just a collection of concepts.

So you could create very cool characters in a very static setting. So you are kidnapped, tortured, escaped, replaced by a clone and now you are a fire elemental who joins the spring court, because you want to enjoy life. So what? Who cares? What you gonna do? Go clubbing in game?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;825179Ok, agreed. But we never had trouble coming up with cool characters. Usually they are specialized to fill certain roles, like a thief, a conman, a brawler and a hacker for example. And then we give them certain characteristics and some cool background.

The characters were always good. The setting as default in vampire the requiem for example always fell flat for me and I never used most of it. It always felt like a grab bag of different ideas, a few clans, a few factions and some city titels.

All new wod titels either have no backstory (vampire, hunter, changeling) or a backstory that could be true, but who cares anyway because it doesn't really matter (werewolf, mage). Changeling's backstory is just some general information about being abducted by faery, the hedge, your escape and building up your life again. That's just a collection of concepts.

So you could create very cool characters in a very static setting. So you are kidnapped, tortured, escaped, replaced by a clone and now you are a fire elemental who joins the spring court, because you want to enjoy life. So what? Who cares? What you gonna do? Go clubbing in game?

Neither example compels me. (That came out wrong, I think.) Where's the hook? What are the characters' associations, beliefs, desires, experiences, and flaws? What is the conflict? What makes them into characters and not simply a collection of statistics on a character sheet?

I can't believe some one doesn't like Geist which is the most sandbox game made by White Wolf that isn't some sad pretensious little shit crying in a dark corner going woe is me.  I am for fucking christ man you almost died, and then came back.  Geist isn't about angst, but about celebration.  It is about using your second chance in life to do whatever you want with that second chance.

Drink as you don't have to deal with some shitty city politics that holds you down like other games.  Dance as you are free from any organization that holds you down other than the one that you choose to form.  Celebrate as you are the master of your own universe.

The character isn't his background in Geist.  It is what he does in the game that determines the character.  Geists is a game of taking action of your second life and doing things in it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;825313I can't believe some one doesn't like Geist which is the most sandbox game made by White Wolf that isn't some sad pretensious little shit crying in a dark corner going woe is me.  I am for fucking christ man you almost died, and then came back.  Geist isn't about angst, but about celebration.  It is about using your second chance in life to do whatever you want with that second chance.

Drink as you don't have to deal with some shitty city politics that holds you down like other games.  Dance as you are free from any organization that holds you down other than the one that you choose to form.  Celebrate as you are the master of your own universe.

The character isn't his background in Geist.  It is what he does in the game that determines the character.  Geists is a game of taking action of your second life and doing things in it.

The lack of angst isn't the problem. Without some form of meaningful conflict, there's no engine to drive the plot and little reason to engage with it. Vampires and werewolves have the conflict between humanity and animality, wraiths have the conflict between moving out and staying home, and so on. Geist lacks any meaningful conflict, thus it bores.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;825317The lack of angst isn't the problem. Without some form of meaningful conflict, there's no engine to drive the plot and little reason to engage with it. Vampires and werewolves have the conflict between humanity and animality, wraiths have the conflict between moving out and staying home, and so on. Geist lacks any meaningful conflict, thus it bores.

You create the conflict.  You are a active force in the game instead of being the responsive force.  Your the one who does the things which could start a conflict.

Try to take some powerful underworld metal alloy to make super gear in the underworld?  Those ghosts in that domain are not going to like that.  That is a conflict.

Want to blend in with vampires to get access to their cash?  The prince isn't going to like it and she is going to hate it even more when she finds out what you really are.  That is conflict.

What you are looking for is conflict going after you.  Your not going to get that in Geist.  You have to get off your ass to generate conflict because it is very much like Dungeons and Dragons in that sense.  Be a active force and you will get conflict.

Quote from: Snowman0147;825322You create the conflict.  You are a active force in the game instead of being the responsive force.  Your the one who does the things which could start a conflict.

Try to take some powerful underworld metal alloy to make super gear in the underworld?  Those ghosts in that domain are not going to like that.  That is a conflict.

Want to blend in with vampires to get access to their cash?  The prince isn't going to like it and she is going to hate it even more when she finds out what you really are.  That is conflict.

What you are looking for is conflict going after you.  Your not going to get that in Geist.  You have to get off your ass to generate conflict because it is very much like Dungeons and Dragons in that sense.  Be a active force and you will get conflict.

All of which could be done just as well or better with other splats. Why do we need a separate splat that is specifically focused on failing to answer the question "what are the PCs supposed to do?"

Even Demon: The Descent, which I find derivative and uninspired, generates more interest because it has active antagonists (the universe is literally out to get you) and gives PCs the default goal of literally building personal hells.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;825327All of which could be done just as well or better with other splats. Why do we need a separate splat that is specifically focused on failing to answer the question "what are the PCs supposed to do?"

Even Demon: The Descent, which I find derivative and uninspired, generates more interest because it has active antagonists (the universe is literally out to get you) and gives PCs the default goal of literally building personal hells.

Because it is different and refreshing for once.  Do you require a excuse to do things?

Quote from: Snowman0147;825335Because it is different and refreshing for once.  Do you require a excuse to do things?

I need a reason that justifies playing Geist in particular as opposed to any other roleplaying game ever made. Geist is as boring as a drill. Reading the book doesn't inspire any ideas for campaigns.

Reading Puppetland, on the other hand... I don't think I ever found any game more engrossing.

Wow.  I feel sorry for you.

Quote from: Snowman0147;825346Wow.  I feel sorry for you.

It's a curse I'm afraid.

Quote from: Snowman0147;825322You create the conflict.  You are a active force in the game instead of being the responsive force.  Your the one who does the things which could start a conflict.

What you are looking for is conflict going after you.  Your not going to get that in Geist.  You have to get off your ass to generate conflict because it is very much like Dungeons and Dragons in that sense.  Be a active force and you will get conflict.

You are not going to get anything like that in most nWoD games. I am the kind of gamer who likes getting mixed up in something going on. So I guess I am more of a reactive gamer than a proactive ...

Anyway, all new WoD games come out of the box without any major events that sparked some conflict. It's just a list of subraces and factions and some setting specific elements like the Hedge or the Vinculum.

The old WoD were coming with a conflict straight out of the box, but those games were very monolithic. It was one block vs another block. Camarilla vs Sabbat, Technocracy vs Traditions, Werewolves vs Pentex/Wyrm.

What I don't get is why they just didn't give the games a lot of backstory with multiple conflicts build in?

Like Savage Worlds Hellfrost for example. It has a shitload of different factions and regions and it's very easy to have conflicts. The Lorekeepers want a magical tome? So do the Reliquary! Conflict. The Thieves Guild steals from a warehouse. Guess what, that stuff belongs to the Gray League and they want it back. Conflict.

It has build in conflict, a fleshed out world and still is very broad. Same thing can be said for the Third Imperium for Traveller. Maybe the Vargr unite under a charismatic leader and they start a war against the Imperium? Conflict. Maybe the Zhodani want a relic, but a bunch of pirates want it as well because someone set a bounty on it. You get the idea.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;825327Even Demon: The Descent, which I find derivative and uninspired, generates more interest because it has active antagonists (the universe is literally out to get you) and gives PCs the default goal of literally building personal hells.

Yes, this is another example of a game that comes out of the box with build in conflict, but it is a monolithic one again. It's demons vs the God Machine + angels.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;825344I need a reason that justifies playing Geist in particular as opposed to any other roleplaying game ever made. Geist is as boring as a drill. Reading the book doesn't inspire any ideas for campaigns.

Reading Puppetland, on the other hand... I don't think I ever found any game more engrossing.

Yep, that's my problem as well with the nwod games. Don't know Puppetland though.

I just elaborate a little further to get a view in my head. Oh nooooo!

Anyway, Hellfrost has a very short history about a Blizzard War in which Frost Giant and Frost Dragons destroyed much of the continent and 500 years later it's still in a very bad shape. There is some sort of dark ages going on, the human cities are completely destroyed, the elves and dwarves retreated and the halflings (Engros) became nomads. Half of Rassilon is still covered in ice and is called the Hellfrost. The green area is called the Hearthlands.

It's only 2 pages, but it gives me several campaign ideas. I could do an exploration campaign in the Hellfrost, I could do a military campaign defending the Hearthlands against monsters, I could do military campaign protecting citizens against robbers and pluderers in the Hearthlands or I could try to restore one of the detroyed cities to it's former glory. though.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;825462Yep, that's my problem as well with the nwod games. Don't know Puppetland though.

Puppetland is a 20 year old indie game where you play as puppets try to free Puppettown from the tyranny of Punch and his boys. It's one of the more unique games in the hobby.

The problem with many white wolf games is that the default factions don't really give you an idea of what PCs are actually supposed to do. More recent games tried to fix that, while not doing enough to make these new factions interesting in their own right.