This is a sequel to my old thread from some months back.

I dislike World of Darkness, in both iterations. The settings are specific, inflexible, and are rife with cringe-worthy writing. The rules are clunky, archaic and verbose. Combat, social or physical, is a tedious chore. The morality/humanity/sanity/whatever mechanic fails at what it is intended to do (this is one of the things Exalted did right). Pretty much all of the complaints that have been brought up before.

Worse, White Wolf/Onyx Path has a firmly entrenched monopoly on the urban fantasy market. Pretty much every competitor, like Everlasting or Witchcraft, fizzled out. Combined with their official forums having an environment almost as toxic as that of Paizo's, this means they have absolutely no impetus to improve.

But despite all that gloom and doom I did find a few indie games that implement certain things I liked about the idea of playing World of Darkness, but in a far superior manner.

Feed
Feed is a vampire-oriented kickstarter project by Whistlepunk Games. I'm not going to review the game, but I will point out two things about it that I liked. 1) Character creation involves defining the rules that vampire characters follow, their "strain" in game jargon, and there can be multiple strains and sub-strains in a given campaign; players are no longer straitjacketed by the cliche Ricean mold. 2) Character statistics are literally their background and description; becoming more vampiric and supernatural means a character literally becomes less human because they exchange human traits for vampiric ones, rather than arbitrarily going crazy because they don't feel guilty for acting like a jerk.

Monsterhearts
Monsterhearts is inspired by all those television shows about teenagers struggling with the supernatural and has queer subtext. As before, I'll point out what I liked. 1) The game makes it quite explicit that the monsters are a metaphor for humanity, and does so in a better way than WoD: character splats ("skins") are all clear metaphors for different kinds of teenage angst (e.g. the werewolf is the overprotective boyfriend). 2) The combat mechanics, the conditions, the statistics, and pretty much the entire basic rules support the themes of supernatural drama better than WoD does and aren't a chore to play. 3) Skins are far more diverse than splats in WoD and the rules actually state each group should only have one vampire, werewolf, ghost, etc. It's crazy easy to make new skins and dozens of them are floating around the community. 4) Magic powers are meant to be tweaked and skins can learn powers of other skins, so you aren't limited the way characters are in WoD.

EDIT: I'll be looking through more such games in the future. If I ever get the time, something I want to do is take the elements I like and put them together into a fully-realized game. Assuming Rosemont Bay never comes out...

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;823172This is a sequel to my old thread from some months back.

I dislike World of Darkness, in both iterations. The settings are specific, inflexible, and are rife with cringe-worthy writing. The rules are clunky, archaic and verbose. Combat, social or physical, is a tedious chore. The morality/humanity/sanity/whatever mechanic fails at what it is intended to do (this is one of the things Exalted did right). Pretty much all of the complaints that have been brought up before.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. What about that supposed flexibilty of the new WoD? Do you think the settings are still too specific?


And here a link to Feed. It's free. Yay!

And a link to Monsterhearts.

Btw, I think they write their books like a radio play. It's all mood creation. It probably works for some people to get inspired by it.

If you like Monsterhearts and are interested in WoD, also check out Urban Shadows, which is due for release shortly. The playbooks and moves are all up and it looks like it achieves what WoD promised IMO.

It's almost strictly about ghosts, and I've never played it or met anyone who has, but Lost Souls looks kind of interesting.
http://www.hauntedattic.org/lostsouls.html

I'm guessing it might be a parody, but Katanas and Trenchcoats just popped up on RPGNow

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/146955/Katanas--Trenchcoats-Episode-1-Welcome-to-Darkest-Vancouver

QuoteDo you yearn to portray the passionate and harrowing drama of awesome Immortals in a secret supernatural world? Does your heart sing the ancient aphotic melody of '90s storytelling? Does endless fire burn within you to make an everlasting mark on this Darkest Cosmos? If you meet another Immortal in on a windswept street, do you fight with swords as your way of saying hello?

That's because you're a badass, and this book wants to be your best friend and squire. Katanas & Trenchcoats is your personal Egyptian Scots-Spaniard on this deep narrative journey. It presents for you—just you because you're special—a totally unique system that isn't at all ripping off countless other roleplaying games.

So gaze into this abyss, and let it gaze lovingly back. It wants to be a vessel for your truth. Open your heart and live the Immortal dream of the '90s now!

Quote from: JeremyR;823360I'm guessing it might be a parody, but Katanas and Trenchcoats just popped up on RPGNow

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/146955/Katanas--Trenchcoats-Episode-1-Welcome-to-Darkest-Vancouver

You had me going for a second, but then I read the description.  Then I read who help out in the books.  Fuck Filamena Young to fucking hell.  She goes around harassing ZakS friends with her lies and bullshit.

Quote from: JeremyR;823360I'm guessing it might be a parody, but Katanas and Trenchcoats just popped up on RPGNow

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/146955/Katanas--Trenchcoats-Episode-1-Welcome-to-Darkest-Vancouver

I dunno, would a parody really allow players to use Knowledge (Academics) vs. the other player's Move when making a Sex Move roll?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;823347I agree with pretty much everything you said. What about that supposed flexibilty of the new WoD? Do you think the settings are still too specific?

The nWoD was more a reimagining of cWoD that tried to remove the debris that had accumulated over the years in order to refocus on the core themes of the game, and to attract new players who would otherwise be intimated by the vast background of the cWoD: a "World of Darkness Lite" produced at the behest of the marketing department. The problem is that while the games may have the illusion of being more flexible, they're still limited by the built-in settings. You can't easily tweak the background, powers and so forth without cutting yourself off from large chunks of the books. Vampires are Ricean, werewolves are demon hunters, mages believe in the supernal realms, mummies come from Irem, and so on. A lot of concepts are left out.

To put it simply, WoD in any incarnation is the opposite of generic. You can't play a troupe of mixed monsters without running into balance issues making one PC outshine the others. All monsters of a particular type follow the same basic rules, rather than having a "Night Horrors: The Wicked Dead" model from the start for all character types. The rules for mundane task resolution are workable, but they're still a 1991 system with a few dozen coats of paint; and in GMC's case, bloated with a few indie mechanics bolted on without really understanding the context of the games those mechanics were copied from (indie games have simpler rules, different themes, and PCs often can't die without player permission). The rules for supernatural powers are unwieldy, structured into idiosyncratic ladders and unless you're playing a Promethean, Changeling or Mage, many classical powers are forever outside your reach (e.g. vampiric levitation, flight, nightmare face, telekinesis, phasing through doors, instant teleportation when unobserved, etc). Some of the rules are just plain weird, like ghosts and spirits and angels being unable to perceive or interact with one another as of GMC and there being an arbitrary distinction between the ghostly double of a destroyed building (or a pencil, which is an example given in the book) and the building spirit that represented said building. Both of those rules could be ignored and not make a significant difference.

I spent days thinking about how to improve the Storyteller System before finally giving up in frustration. It's simply too unwieldy. Exalted has such a problem with rules that the fan-made lite rules "Qwixalted" has a fair following. I'd be better off trying to remake the games in Strands of Fate or Apocalypse World or even Risus.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;823347Btw, I think they write their books like a radio play. It's all mood creation. It probably works for some people to get inspired by it.

Not that the fiction in WoD books isn't sometimes good (and sometimes very bad), but often the fiction has nothing to do with the book it appears in.

Quote from: Skywalker;823351If you like Monsterhearts and are interested in WoD, also check out Urban Shadows, which is due for release shortly. The playbooks and moves are all up and it looks like it achieves what WoD promised IMO.

From what little I've read of the corruption mechanic, it definitely works better than the hamfisted Humanity mechanic.

Quote from: King Truffle IV;823352It's almost strictly about ghosts, and I've never played it or met anyone who has, but Lost Souls looks kind of interesting.
http://www.hauntedattic.org/lostsouls.html

I thought it was a riot. Definitely reminds me of Beetlejuice and Dead Like Me.

So it seems like if you want (a) "crunch medium" (> Apocalypse World/Fate, < GURPS) (b) want a system with "recent-style" mechanics (e.g., hero points, etc.), your option is Cinematic Unisystem (Buffy, Angel, etc.).

1. is that right?

2. if that is right, what's the optimum set of books I need to buy to make my own WoD? I know people always recommend the "magic box" supplement.

Quote from: PencilBoy99;823457So it seems like if you want (a) "crunch medium" (> Apocalypse World/Fate, < GURPS) (b) want a system with "recent-style" mechanics (e.g., hero points, etc.), your option is Cinematic Unisystem (Buffy, Angel, etc.).

1. is that right?

2. if that is right, what's the optimum set of books I need to buy to make my own WoD? I know people always recommend the "magic box" supplement.

I would recommend Risus or Strands of Fate if you're making stuff from scratch.
Risus is great for a lot of reasons. On its own it's good, but it can also work as the base for additional rules if more granularity is desired due to the simplicity of the core mechanics. You could replace cliches with an attribute or skill system closer to FAE without trouble. It's easy to tweak the conflict system to chip at physical or social hit points like Fate. Look up Serious Risus for other approaches.

EDIT: I found a system for using real Fate Aspects in World of Darkness, which could be good for mining ideas. http://www.voidstarstudios.com/home/2011/6/3/aspect-like-mechanics-for-new-world-of-darkness.html

Thanks BoxCrayon, but we don't like Fate and Rissus isn't crunchy enough for us.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;823468I would recommend Risus or Strands of Fate if you're making stuff from scratch.

That is perhaps the your best bet.  It does better than world of darkness can ever do for what they try to make it do.  As much as I hate Evil Hat and its massive dick move that was done to a other game developer they still made a pretty good game system.  I am surprise Onyx Path hadn't made the switch to FATE to be honest.  I guess that would piss off too many people if they done that.

Nightbane is my favorite WoD alternative.

I've run it with Savage Worlds, Risus, BESM and Palladium's system. Unlike Rifts, you don't lose any flavor from Nightbane when you port the setting over to your favorite system.

I may have mentioned this in your last thread. Or not.

What I love about Nightbane is the multiple angles. There is the whole Man vs. Monster, Man vs. Man, Monster vs. Monster and "what have I become" aspects for the GM to explore...or not.

BTW, if any of you haven't checked out RISUS, its worth a look. Especially at all the modifications for you to dial the system to what you want it to do in a very fast, freeform manner. Its my go-to when I just want to go rules ultralight.

Quote from: Snowman0147;823481That is perhaps the your best bet.  It does better than world of darkness can ever do for what they try to make it do.  As much as I hate Evil Hat and its massive dick move that was done to a other game developer they still made a pretty good game system.  I am surprise Onyx Path hadn't made the switch to FATE to be honest.  I guess that would piss off too many people if they done that.

Strands of Fate is actually a different game made by Void Star Studios using the Fate SRD. The lead developer is a World of Darkness player and included mechanics in Strands of Power that can easily approximate many cool powers from World of Darkness or superheroes in general. One of the possible powers is a mechanic similar to Mage's spheres but which can be applied to any concept or framed in different ways. All of the powers are heavily customizable. The only problem for me is that there are so many rules for everything even if the basic mechanic is simple.

Edit: Emulating World of Darkness is easy. To use vampires as an example, you could add an angst stress track that accumulates as the vamp does evil things to represent how horrible they feel about themselves. Consequences could include writing bad poetry, moping around, brooding, crying to sleep, and acting generally whiny.

Quote from: Snowman0147;823481That is perhaps the your best bet.  It does better than world of darkness can ever do for what they try to make it do.  As much as I hate Evil Hat and its massive dick move that was done to a other game developer they still made a pretty good game system.  I am surprise Onyx Path hadn't made the switch to FATE to be honest.  I guess that would piss off too many people if they done that.

If they did that I would piss in their mouth. Fate and similar games can take a flying fuck as far as I'm concerned. Hell, as it is NWOD 2e is already too close to that bullshit for my taste and comfort. I like morality/ethical tension in my horror. CWoD and other kantana/trenchcoat and most indy games are too juvenile and 1990's for me. "Ooh, look at me I'm a big monster and love it and do whatever stupid thing I want with no realistic consequences at all". Meh.

Or worse it's a giant navel gazing contest where you accomplish fuck all like Mage the Ascension.