Might be interesting, the kickstarter will probably do fairly well.  I might pick up the pdf level, depends.

I've always been vaguely interested in the system from watching Wil Wheaton play it on Tabletop, but I've never been into the computer game and didn't want to get the sets, so now I'll apparently get the options of getting the system with the computer game background or getting it with golden hart background.  I'll probably in part see which I can get cheaper.

Quote from: jcfiala;822057I've always been vaguely interested in the system from watching Wil Wheaton play it on Tabletop, but I've never been into the computer game and didn't want to get the sets, so now I'll apparently get the options of getting the system with the computer game background or getting it with golden hart background.  I'll probably in part see which I can get cheaper.

I believe that a setting-less AGE rulebook is in the works too.

So they're hoping to relaunch Blue Rose?

Sounds cool.  It's not for me though.  I bought the core, companion, and world books when I happened upon them at a local store for $5 apiece.  I think they're pretty good.  They convinced me to give True20 another shot, at least.  That said, I'm not in the market to buy the same or revised material again.  Regardless, I hope they manage to relaunch and have a good one.

I wish the best of luck to Green Ronin. Although I liked the AGE system I'd probably would have used an updated True20.

Re: Politics
I think that arguing about the politics of fantasy is silly.
Strange women in ponds handing swords and all that stuff...

Quote from: RPGPundit;821629So yeah, that's a thing.  What do you think?

Don't care.

Quote from: MrHurst;821702Can't say I dislike that, but I'm much more interested in the mechanics, anyone have anything nice to say about the dragon age system they're basing it on?

It's pretty mechanically robust, although I'd almost worry it's too much grit-and-gears for the intended audience.  If you preferred earlier versions of D&D, it works pretty well.

Quote from: CRKrueger;821836BTW, isn't Blue Rose the place where there are "normal humans", the elf analogue are "good magical humans" who are pale with white hair, the evil race analogue is "evil corrupted humans" with black skin, and the orc analogue is the "Night People"?

Isn't this setup the kind of thing that gets the Outrage Brigade going crazy?

The Vata'sha (Drow-with-serial-numbers-filed-off) and Night People (Orcs-with-serial-numbers-filed-off) are more put on a pedestal than than anything else -- the corebook goes out of their way to say any living in Aldis are extremely loyal and honest because Aldis is nice to them while the other evil countries discriminate against them.

The evil narrative equivalent to the cunning military-minded outsiders with torturous social norms are the Jarzoni (Christians), and the mindless and nameless evil folk are the Kernish (either thralls to a Lich or willing servants of evil).  

On the other hand, they did get some flack from the SJWs for iffy portrayal of the not-Romani Roamers.

Quote from: Skywalker;821665Given Blue Rose was one of GR's most successful properties in its time

True20 was the successful part of Blue Rose. People were buying the core book to plunder the d20 rules. The publishers refused to acknowledge this reality for a while, but eventually released a bucketload of True20 rulebooks, while BR withered in a dark corner.

Quote from: Ephemerer;821730Would Vampire: the Masquerade have had the same runaway success if it had come out in 1977?

White Wolf came up with a game about angst ridden Gothic immortals. People used it to play katana-wielding vampires in black trenchcoats fighting Nazi werewolves on top of steampunk zeppelins. With a Japanese glam metal soundtrack in the background.

How could this not succeed?

QuoteI'd say Blue Rose has a better chance of success today than its last release.

This is probably accurate, and I imagine that a well-run Kickstarter can ensure at least a decent initial financial success. Whether its publishers can market it effectively in the long run or not is an entirely different question.

Quote from: jhkim;821808I don't think there's anything particularly story-gamish or political in the original game itself

Storygamish? No.

Political? Absolutely.  But we've gone over this before.    It says if you are a libertarian, individualist, or christian (or any ideology that's not Collectivist) you are OBJECTIVELY not-good, and objectively wrong. You are 'twilight' or 'shadow'.  That is an inherently POLITICAL statement.  

Also, you have seen the new link, right? You can't now pretend that the statement in the announcement isn't explicitly political, right?

I appreciated what Blue Rose was trying to do, in terms of being explicitly more "inclusive" and all, but the setting wasn't the best execution of romantic fantasy IMO.  For one thing, they seem not to have noticed that most of the protagonists of such stories are individuals working against some corrupt element of the larger system, cleaning it out, helping to both redeem it and find their place within it.

Aldis comes off as a place where all that work was taken care of before any of the PCs came along, and so leaves them with the standard "good-guy kingdom vs. bad-guy kingdom" trope.

That said, I did appreciate the inclusion of talking animals as PC options.

I'm not familiar with the Dragon Age rules, but I'm willing to give Blue Rose another look.

Quote from: RPGPundit;822791Storygamish? No.

Political? Absolutely.  But we've gone over this before.    It says if you are a libertarian, individualist, or christian (or any ideology that's not Collectivist) you are OBJECTIVELY not-good, and objectively wrong. You are 'twilight' or 'shadow'.  That is an inherently POLITICAL statement.  

Also, you have seen the new link, right? You can't now pretend that the statement in the announcement isn't explicitly political, right?

Yes, I have seen the new link, and I already expressed that I didn't like how they were selling it.

As for the alignment rules, I disagree and I've already written a FAQ on the subject. cf. http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/bluerose/goldenhart.html

QuoteThe alignments are a part of the background of Aldis in that there is an artifact that tests whether a candidate is of Light alignment before becoming a noble. Within Blue Rose, the alignments are Light, Twilight, and Shadow -- tying them into the mythology of the game-world. This distances them slightly from being strictly real-world morals, though Light is clearly more moral than Shadow.

Light alignment is described in the core rulebook as follows: "Generally, the Light-aligned believe in community and the good of all over mere self-interest. They seek peace, harmonious coexistence, and the general good; although, there is sometimes disagreement as to what exactly is the best for everyone." This is rather vague, since it refers to believing in and seeking good for all, but not what "good" means.

This is similar though not identical to other alignment systems. For example, in Dungeons & Dragons, the Good alignments are described by saying: "Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others." These are distinct, but have similar connotations. Light and good characters both care about others rather than caring only for themselves (i.e. "altruism" and "general good"). They prefer peaceful means and avoid killing unless it is necessary (i.e. "peace" and "respect for life").

However, the description of Light specifically mentions community and the good of all. This does not necessarily mean either lawfulness or obedience, since a character may care about and protect their people without obeying the laws. Vigilantes or rebels may believe in their community, but not accept the law as what is best for them. Within the D&D alignment scheme, lawfulness implies belief in community, but belief in community does not imply lawfulness. On the D&D alignment scale, this might be roughly illustrated as shown below.



In other words, someone who is Lawful Good is definitely Light. Someone who is Chaotic Evil is definitely Shadow. Someone who is Chaotic Good might be Light if they care about the community but simply work outside its laws; or they might be Twilight if they are more loners and drifters.

The Blue Rose alignments have been criticized as "collectivist", but that is imposing a specific interpretation on a vague sentence. "Belief in community" or "general good" are pretty open for interpretation by different gaming groups. There are no specific guidelines than this, and the range of light and shadow natures are broad.

Quote from: jhkim;822802Yes, I have seen the new link, and I already expressed that I didn't like how they were selling it.

As for the alignment rules, I disagree and I've already written a FAQ on the subject. cf. http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/bluerose/goldenhart.html

You mention "belief in community" and "general good" not being political.  Only problem is, those are your words, not Blue Rose's.  What BR actually says is "Generally, the Light-aligned believe in community and the good of all over mere self-interest. They seek peace, harmonious coexistence, and the general good; although, there is sometimes disagreement as to what exactly is the best for everyone." You replace Light-Aligned with Liberal, you've got NPR ad copy.

The authors have said Blue Rose is the "gayest" RPG ever made.  It would be downright silly to pretend it wasn't the most liberal as well.  It's a Utopia, one that's equally as political and silly really as a fictional Randian Utopia would be.

All Utopias are impossible, because they depend on people not being people.  If the Magic Deer actually existed and could ensure the leaders weren't just as corrupt as the criminals, it would probably be a good place to live.

Pretending it isn't political though, that's one of those obvious Team Jersey lies that just make you look disingenuous.

It's got very strong political and religious beliefs...so?  A lot of great fantasy and a ton of great science fiction does too.

Quote from: CRKrueger;822809It's got very strong political and religious beliefs...so?  A lot of great fantasy and a ton of great science fiction does too.

I agree entirely. Narnia and Middle Earth to name a couple. I'll take it further and say practically everything has some political or social biases assumptions in it. Fiction is created by people and people have them and their creations will often reflex their beliefs even if to contrast, examine or deconstruct them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;822809It's got very strong political and religious beliefs...so?  A lot of great fantasy and a ton of great science fiction does too.

This is how I feel, too.

The mere fact that it is political does not, in itself, make it a bad game or setting, even if you don't agree with the politics or agenda on display.  I'm not a Christian, for instance, but I still think C.S. Lewis spun some good yarns.

My beef with Blue Rose, to the extent I had one, was that I thought it didn't actually reflect romantic fantasy all that well.

Several of the less metaphysically evil examples of Shadow and Twilight characters are explicitly tainted by fairly standard self-interest, and much of the shadow alignment and shadow natures are written from early 2000s progressivism.  There's not much of a fig leaf, there.  This actually works out ok in practice -- it's great for running Captain Planet-style adventures, and even if that's a bit shallow it's at least quick to get everyone to jump onto.

Quote from: King Truffle IV;822801For one thing, they seem not to have noticed that most of the protagonists of such stories are individuals working against some corrupt element of the larger system, cleaning it out, helping to both redeem it and find their place within it.

Aldis comes off as a place where all that work was taken care of before any of the PCs came along, and so leaves them with the standard "good-guy kingdom vs. bad-guy kingdom" trope.

I think that Jarzon was more the intended setting for that type of game, with the administration of the Church being explicitly Shadow-aligned and the majority of the people being explicitly Light- or Twilight- and merely misguided, hence why the sample adventure puts the heroes against a group of Jarzoni refugees.  Aldis proper is more Diane Duane or Mercedes Lackey emulation, where the system itself is good but individual components may be corrupted (aka 50% of the Merchant's and Noble's Councils) or external threats are involved and you need someone to protect.

Admittedly, the core book handles this pretty poorly; I think it was made more explicit in the settings books

Quote from: King Truffle IV;822801I appreciated what Blue Rose was trying to do, in terms of being explicitly more "inclusive" and all, but the setting wasn't the best execution of romantic fantasy IMO.  For one thing, they seem not to have noticed that most of the protagonists of such stories are individuals working against some corrupt element of the larger system, cleaning it out, helping to both redeem it and find their place within it.

Aldis comes off as a place where all that work was taken care of before any of the PCs came along, and so leaves them with the standard "good-guy kingdom vs. bad-guy kingdom" trope.

Aldis is most closely associated with Mercedes Lackey rather than other writers like, say, Tamora Pierce. I would have preferred something closer to Tortall, but I think there's no doubt that Mercedes Lackey is within the bounds of romantic fantasy. The core of good in Aldis is much like how Valdemar is kept positive by the presence of the Companions. (Those are innately good psychic horse-like animals who bond with certain humans, for those who don't know Mercedes Lackey.)

Still, nearly all of the adventure hooks are about fighting corruption and evil within Aldis, not making war on Kern. The "Threats to Aldis" section from pages 38 to 41 detail corrupt merchant guilds, fallen nobles, bandits, criminals (including the powerful syndicate The Silence), Shadow cults, and more. The vast majority of the adventure seeds from p176-177 are about internal threats.

In general, Aldis is portrayed as a kingdom whose heart is in the right place - so no need for a general revolution. However, there is plenty of corruption, crime, and conspiracy - as well as other differences.