Quote from: TristramEvans;820297I'll consider the fact that Shlominus' entire posting history here has had nothing to do with RPGs and only him jumping in to argue about controversies. And then I'll use my very rarely touched ignore list for an obvious troll once again being obvious.

I have a pretty itchy ignore list finger, but somehow this idiot made it in under the radar, until now.

Mentioning the existence of horrible people who happen to have similar interests as oneself is not the same thing as an endorsement. Sometimes, horrible people have similar interests as oneself. Mostly because horrible people are still people, and people tend to be not 100% focused on anything, not even being horrible (even though that would be very convenient, wouldn't it? It would make the "you like other stuff than me, therefore there is something wrong with you" fallacy  come true). Ranggi is also right about another thing: When he talks about games, this particularly horrible person looks quite normal. A lessen in the banality of evil, if you like.    

But yes, Vikernes is a neo-nazi. I also think that he (and neo-nazis in general) is a much more deserving target of mockery or contempt than the usual "we must DO something" outrage-tourists.
And that means that it is acutally a very, very good thing to make their appearances public. Because there is no better way to discredit and ridicule this specific branch of horrible people than to quote them word for word. Secrecy and the appeal of something forbidden is actual helpful to this fringe.

Now I want to have that ...person's... game,  invite  a bunch of friends, purchase enough beer to grant everyone a mercyful coma, read it aloud in the most Freisler-channeling tirades I can manage, and either convert the rules to the setting of Spinrad's Iron Dream (or leave it as it is, whatever is more horrible). Then, after the eventual hangover, sit down and document the game as thoroughly as possible.
However, the idea that this ... person would make any money out of me is just plain unacceptable.

Quote from: shlominus;820295considering his position in the osr, by giving him public exposure, he is endorsing him. this post will most likely result in sales for his game.

"varg is OSR."

i call that an endorsement.

obviously it's just another raggi-publicitystunt to get the usual suspects riled up, but the fact of the matter is that varg vikernes is a nazi (and a convicted murderer).

you can think and talk about that, or you can consider someone informing you of something relevant to the hobby as trolling. your coice.

"Varg is OSR" is a simple statement of fact. He says Basic Fantasy is the best D&D game, and he says he's a fan of OSRIC. That's all it takes.

I've posted about buying work done by murderers before (albums in these cases):

https://plus.google.com/u/0/112262093672917983853/posts/GMM5JkLQkGt

https://plus.google.com/u/0/112262093672917983853/posts/Rc5SsakM7Sg

Quote from: jhkim;820293So has anyone here read The Strange and the Thunder Plains setting?

I haven't yet.

I just got the game a few days ago, so I haven't had time to read it yet. But looking ahead, the Thunder Plains section takes up about two pages out of the entire book. It is a recursion (basically, an alternate world) roughly the size of the Dakota Territory in 1861. To paraphrase the opening paragraph, it's based on a version of Native American mythology where the White Man never came and the plains tribes continue to exist as they did before contact with Europeans. There are many small villages, the buffalo are seemingly endless, and medicine elders lead their people through rituals involving song and dance.

The claims made by the petition are simply false.

Claim: "However, Bruce R. Cordell and Monte J. Cook thought it appropriate to appropriate Native culture and create this mass amalgamation pan-Indian world as one of their main 5 listed in their core guide named "Thunder Plains"."

Fact: There are only two primary recursions detailed in The Strange - Ardeyn and Ruk. The Thunder Plains is one of several others that is named and given some brief details, but it is explicitly not one of the "main 5."  Also, it is not a "mass amalgamation pan-Indian world" but instead based on the plains tribes such as the Sioux.

Claim: "In it, they have turned "Thunderbird" into an antagonistic god-like creature,"

Fact: Ridiculous. Thunderbird is a "divine being of power, strength, and protection" according to page 248. It stops wars among the people, in fact. It can be an antagonist to a PC, but that's not automatic and only happens if said PC screws up somehow. Now, there is a village which has found out about Earth and is trying to use a ritual to send Thunderbird here to punish us for what happened in the past, but that's not Thunderbird's fault. That's just some bad guys trying to unleash a divine WMD.

Claim: "and have littered the 'recursion' with 'medicine men' wearing leather chaps and overly large headdresses with antlers, stating that Indians 'revere' the buffalo."

Fact: That description of medicine men is nowhere in the text. There is an illustration where a man is wearing sizable antlers but I think the claim is overblown. In fact, I've seen real-world examples of people dressed similarly, and I think that's important. The Thunder Plains aren't supposed to be an exact, 100% factually accurate representation of what the Sioux and other tribes would have looked and acted like if the White Man had never showed up. It's more based on what people here on Earth think such a place would have looked like. That's simply how recursions work, from what I've picked up in my reading so far.

Oh, and I couldn't find any mention of the people of the TP "revering" buffalo. They revere their ancestors, they likely revere Thunderbird, but there was no mention of the buffalo being held to such a prominent level.

Again, I haven't read the entire book, so I might be missing some things, but this is what I've picked up on by taking ten minutes to go over my copy. I really don't see anything to be offended about. And this is coming from someone with quite a bit of native blood in his family.

Quote from: JimLotFP;820317https://plus.google.com/u/0/112262093672917983853/posts/GMM5JkLQkGt

The picture at the end of that link needs a trigger warning

Quote from: JimLotFP;820317"Varg is OSR" is a simple statement of fact. He says Basic Fantasy is the best D&D game, and he says he's a fan of OSRIC. That's all it takes.

I've posted about buying work done by murderers before (albums in these cases):

https://plus.google.com/u/0/112262093672917983853/posts/GMM5JkLQkGt

https://plus.google.com/u/0/112262093672917983853/posts/Rc5SsakM7Sg

james, i have nothing against you personally, i have a lot of respect for someone so passionate about their hobby and courageous enough to try and start a small business. i think you got stuck in puberty, but that's the extent of my negativity towards you. i also get your "edgy", outrage-producing schtick. not my thing, but i get it.

but by mentioning a nazi (and lets not beat around the bush here, there's no discussion here. well, maybe from tristam... :rotfl: ) in any neutral or positive way, even if it is just about elfgames, you have crossed a line.

i cannot understand why you would endorse such a person. and please don't tell me it's not an endorsement. can you honestly say that you believe your post won't increase sales for his game?

Quote from: Telarus;820150Meh. Monte & company stuck their foot in their mouth by poorly amalgamating "native culture" (as if it was only one culture) into a poor stereotype, and got called on it.

Here's the thing: The section in question is literally 25 sentences long. One of those sentences is, "The communities are of different cultures, and sometimes that leads to strife, raids, and even war." (emphasis added)

Complaining that a chunk of the rulebook that constitutes little more than a conceptual blurb doesn't fully explore the differences in Native American cultures is silly. Claiming that it "amalgamates" them into a single culture, when it actually does the exact opposite, is idiotic.

Quote from: Werekoala;820278I swear, if I see one more SJW diatribe about cultural appropriation written in English, on a computer, using electricity, and posted on the Internet I'm going to hurl.

It's likely that they're also wearing pants while not being Iranian.

"Cultural appropriation" is a concept that fundamentally doesn't make sense. While some Indians may fiercely object to my "appropriation" of zero, I simply refuse to legitimize this sort of absurd zero-sum thinking.

For example, here's a popular article that neatly serves as a great example of how silly the whole thing can get.

The article claims that Mexicans and South Americans invented folded pastries, which have actually been a staple around the world for centuries. The first recipes for "empanadas" under that name actually appear in Medieval Iberia (i.e., Spain and Portugal) around the time of the Moorish invasion. This is probably because empanadas were derived from the Arabic meat-filled pies referred to as samosas.

The European "empanada" was then carried to the Americas by Spanish and Portugese immigrants. They became staples there under the same name they were known in Spain and the term "empanada" then traveled north into America with hispanic immigrants. But the concept of "wrapping the pie crust all the way around a small savory/sweet package that you can hold in your hand" wasn't new to North America at that point: The British had been doing it for centuries, having "stolen" the idea from either the Irish or the French (depending on who you believe), and the British, Irish, Scottish, and a whole bunch of other European immigrants had been bringing them to the future U.S.A. and Canada from pretty much Day 1.

Quote from: shlominus;820324i cannot understand why you would endorse such a person. and please don't tell me it's not an endorsement. can you honestly say that you believe your post won't increase sales for his game?

It's a book. Books are not to be treated as dangerous or forbidden things.

If someone can get something out of it, more power to creator and customer I say.

Did you even read the posts I linked?

keep your censorship-strawman to yourself, you know perfectly well that i am not talking about "dangerous or forbidden books".

more power to the creator... ok.

i doubt anything useful can come of this discussion. thanks for your reply.

Quote from: shlominus;820336i doubt anything useful can come of this discussion. thanks for your reply.

That makes it seem like the only reason you posted in this thread was that you are a troll filling in the Godwin square on his Internet forum bingo card or you were looking for any excuse to provide more exposure to a neo-nazi.  :eek:

I guess both could even be true. :eek:

Jesus fuck, we have trollpo1 starting a controversy thread, and then trolmius trying to ignite another controversy in the same thread. Ugh.

Quote from: Planet Algol;820340Jesus fuck, we have trollpo1 starting a controversy thread, and then trolmius trying to ignite another controversy in the same thread. Ugh.

Are you suggesting the snake successfully swallowed its tail?

To be honest, "more power to the creator" seems like a horrible idea in this specific context.

Is Varg's game any good?

Quote from: Nexus;820272But proving once again that there's no such thing as bad publicity, I forwarded that link to several people in my group and circle of friends and now they're very interested in checking out a game they'd never heard of before.

Agreed. If the SJWs hate The Strange, its probably worth a second look.

Quote from: Rincewind1;820274This thread will have more posts than the petition will have signatures.

Let's hope, but I will not be surprised if Monte Cook caves in to these jackassses.

Quote from: JimLotFP;820317I've posted about buying work done by murderers before (albums in these cases):

Thank you for introducing me to Emperor, I'm playing In the Nightshade Eclipse right now via YouTube. Reminds me of Skeletonwitch. I saw Skeletonwitch with Amon Amarth a few months ago and their show was just amazing.

Quote from: shlominus;820295considering his position in the osr, by giving him public exposure, he is endorsing him. this post will most likely result in sales for his game.

"varg is OSR."

i call that an endorsement.

obviously it's just another raggi-publicitystunt to get the usual suspects riled up, but the fact of the matter is that varg vikernes is a nazi (and a convicted murderer).

you can think and talk about that, or you can consider someone informing you of something relevant to the hobby as trolling. your coice.

im usualy a big fan of threads going stupidly off topic but there was no real reason for you to bring that up