Quote from: Nexus;814337Its definitely not a monolithic movement.

Yes, this is important to always keep in mind too. We must acknowledge nuance in the groups we sometimes disagree with if we are going to ask them to acknowledge nuance in their critics.

If James' is to be believed, his game was pretty innocuous (no slurs, no pro-rape, etc.). So Fred Hicks getting it banned is pretty low if that's true.

James sadly has a habit of foot in mouth disease though, which doesn't help things. He recently got into it on a Facebook conversation and yelled at J Achilli of being better when he was on Coke...

J Achilli hasn't even really come out in terms of being pro progressive or anti-progressive, and was must calling James out on acting like a douche, so it was a really uncalled for attack and didn't help his cause any.

Quote from: Snowman0147;814222I hadn't forgiven Zak for calling James sexist base on what his friends had told him.  That just pisses me off that Zak did that.  The whole, "Well my friends told me so it must be true," is something I find pretty ignorant.  My friends told me things and guess what?  They were wrong.  Hell I been wrong some times and told my friends which they proved I was wrong.  Point is friends do make errors and unwise judgements.

That was... odd. He claimed he was listening to women about things that affected women but only the opinion of a certain group of women seemed to matter. I mean I don't know about Desborough's game but he also mentioned Gor as being definitely offensive to women mainly because his friends didn't like it and there probably hundreds if not more women that like the series (one of them is a friend and gaming companion of mine).

Quote from: Nexus;814337Its funny, I've seen that basic accusation tossed at different schools of feminism at others for years too. Its definitely not a monolithic movement.

Yes and no. Individual feminists might have different ideas about things like intersectionality or prostitution, but have someone, especially a woman decide they don't want to be a feminist, and they close ranks like a phallanx. And then start throwing dictionaries around.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;814370Yes and no. Individual feminists might have different ideas about things like intersectionality or prostitution, but have someone, especially a woman decide they don't want to be a feminist, and they close ranks like a phallanx. And then start throwing dictionaries around.

While this is often true, I would not say it is close to a universal experience.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;814370Yes and no. Individual feminists might have different ideas about things like intersectionality or prostitution, but have someone, especially a woman decide they don't want to be a feminist, and they close ranks like a phallanx. And then start throwing dictionaries around.

That's not an uncommon reaction for large sociopolitical groups so I can't lay it at totally at Feminism's feet. And I've seen dissenters though the call themselves feminists getting pilloried as much as "outsiders" more than a few times. The different schools of feminist thought can be really harsh with each other especially the particularly self righteous version of Feminism that currently in style Online.

Quote from: Nexus;814390That's not an uncommon reaction for large sociopolitical groups so I can't lay it at totally at Feminism's feet.

Oh, I don't either. Insert buzzwords and catchphrases like "in group preference" and "tribalism" here.
My issue is that criticism of feminism seems to be allowed as long as one accepts that feminism itself is correct on some fundamental level, and they'll drag out the silly dictionary definition of feminism to "prove" it. Like some dogmatic axiom that the idea of feminism is sacrosanct.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;814400Oh, I don't either. Insert buzzwords and catchphrases like "in group preference" and "tribalism" here.
My issue is that criticism of feminism seems to be allowed as long as one accepts that feminism itself is correct on some fundamental level, and they'll drag out the silly dictionary definition of feminism to "prove" it. Like some dogmatic axiom that the idea of feminism is sacrosanct.

Yeah, I don't think you can deny that there is a certain almost religious zealotry among the Feminist movements more vocal adherents and advocates, especially the SJW flavor. Feminism (their particular brand, of course but any will do in a pinch) is the way and the light that will guide humanity into a new age of peace and universal sisterhood (The Matriarchy?).

Hell, I've noticed it in my friend of several years that recently "taken up the faith". You cannot question, you cannot doubt or even illustrate how anything labeled "Feminist thought, theory or paradigm" might have any downsides or be even slightly "Problematic" unless you want a rage fueled fight on your hands.

Honestly, the most reasonable Feminists I've talked to have been women around my age that don't seem as caught up in the Crusade as the more online types. Some refuse to call themelves Feminists in spite of agreeing with the basic premises as they find the public face of current Feminism off putting.

Quote from: Nexus;814403Yeah, I don't think you can deny that there is a certain almost religious zealotry among the Feminist movements more vocal adherents and advocates, especially the SJW flavor. Feminism (their particular brand, of course but any will do in a pinch) is the way and the light that will guide humanity into a new age of peace and universal sisterhood (The Matriarchy?).

Well ultimately every zealot seeks to attach their egos and energy to an "infallible" principle that will outlive them so they can stave off the terror of personal oblivion. Questioning that infallibility (or especially its inevitability) is a direct attack on their coping mechanism. I'm not surprised such people get extremely upset.

To me the religious comparison is spot on, as I personally went through a phase like that with leftist agendas as my crutch/church. I'm still an atheist by logic, not by choice. Say all you want about the freedom to create your own meaning, I'd rather have a god looking out for me in some unfathomable way.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;814400My issue is that criticism of feminism seems to be allowed as long as one accepts that feminism itself is correct on some fundamental level

That was displayed pretty clearly in the interview that Karen Straughan did recently with Cenk Uygur of The Young Turks. I think the interview was even mentioned in this particular session. He absolutely lost it when he couldn't get her to agree with him that feminism was mostly a good thing and there are just some extremists giving it a bad name.

As for the HB Nerdcasts, I'd love to see them get some people from the other side on the show. A debate between Desborough and Fred Hicks could be really entertaining as long they both keep their cool (which is probably unlikely).

Quote from: Nexus;814403Honestly, the most reasonable Feminists I've talked to have been women around my age that don't seem as caught up in the Crusade as the more online types. Some refuse to call themelves Feminists in spite of agreeing with the basic premises as they find the public face of current Feminism off putting.

A lot of people (namely feminists) ask, "Why do so many intelligent, active women, who wouldn't have their opportunities without feminism, refuse to call themselves feminist?"  Maybe for the same reason that a lot of us who are pro-abortion rights, pro-gay rights and pro-health care refuse to call themselves "liberal."

JG

Does this belong in the RPG discussion board? It seems like another political thread.

Note: I don't mind political discussion but I like having it separated from gaming as we do here.

Quote from: jhkim;814474Does this belong in the RPG discussion board? It seems like another political thread.

Note: I don't mind political discussion but I like having it separated from gaming as we do here.

Seems like Grim can no longer be discussed without the 800lb gorilla in the room.

Sad really.

He is an industry figure though, so i'll keep it here for now. I haven't watched the video and i'm not going to, but if folk want to keep the thread here, maybe you could concentrate on the gaming elements of it rather than the gamergate controversy.

It is kind of funny, you know, how the some of these detractors of certain figures in our hobby (Desborough, Zak S, Raggi, the Pundit etc) seem almost obsessed.

These complaints sure bring a lot of awareness of them. Yet, I wonder if many hobbyists would have ever been aware otherwise. I know that personally I had never even heard of any of these figures, nor of their works, had I not read all of the outrage by people on sites like SA.

If they really wanted to diminish the reputation of these people, they should've just ignored them or wrote negative reviews and left it at that. All of their outrage has pretty much been free publicity. Sort of like those speakers in high school who are like, "sex and drugs are bad! Here's lots and lots of details about them!" And a lot of kids end up going "wow, maybe I should try some of that".

Shrug.