Quote from: Sacrosanct;801719This is all well and good, but has jack shit to do with the point of this thread.  That being, why would you feel gimped/cheated/punished for using array or point buy just because someone else wants to use random rolls?  None of your examples are comparing the average bonues of random rolls to those of non-random choices.

Huh? The point of the thread was 'why is it important because nobody will notice the difference in random generated scores.'

Since when was it comparing one person using point buy to another person using random.

And, heck, comparing the two is even worse, actually, because I can reliably have an 18 max score, if I want it, with point buy while in several examples people had high scores of 13-15.

Quote from: Will;801729Huh? The point of the thread was 'why is it important because nobody will notice the difference in random generated scores.'

Since when was it comparing one person using point buy to another person using random.

And, heck, comparing the two is even worse, actually, because I can reliably have an 18 max score, if I want it, with point buy while in several examples people had high scores of 13-15.

I went back and reread my OP, and I'll own up to that for not including non-random in it. My bad on that.  I guess after a few days later my mind shifted to the topic in general, and I'm sure the topic was shifted earlier in the thread re: random vs. non random.  I'm positive I had brought that up earlier, because usually when talking about being punished, it's in the context of why non-random is the only fair way to go so no one is gimped and/or punished.

Fair enough. The one guy with the 'high of 13' had a point total of 17, which is a full 10 points below standard point buy.

Now, in 5e, point buy doesn't go above 15. Which is a little weird, so at least it wouldn't be immediately noticeable.

But, of course, the standard point buy person has 5 ability score improvements worth of 'stuff' the lowbie doesn't have.


Flipping it around, if you are doing point buy and you max at 15, that guy with the 17 or 18 is going to have a leg up, particularly in a game with so little wiggle room elsewhere. That guy with the 18 has a lot more stuff, overall.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;801719Bren, go read the thread again

Not unless you are going to pay me and I need at least 1/3 upfront before I start rereading.

But then I never said "notice" = "feel cheated." You were the one who made a big deal about how no one would notice things that people clearly do notice. If you don't notice of course you won't feel cheated. If one does notice, one may or may not feel the difference makes things unfun. If you think things are unfun, you may or may not describe that as "cheated" as opposed to just saying it sucks.

If someone is going to say they something will never realistically happen then they ought to be willing and able to show us the math to prove it. So show us your math.

Quote"Realistically not going to happen" is a perfectly valid statement.

It is. But not for the examples that are being cited. Show us the math to demonstrate the billions to one odds that would make your statement true instead of wrong.

And since you like analogies so much better than math, here is an analogy to your viewpoint on the probability of high stat differences occuring randomly based on your not noticing that it has happened. I have never fallen off a bicycle and hit my head. Would you say that no one should ever wear a bicycle helmet while cycling since falling and hitting your head is realistically never going to happen based on my experience? If not, why not?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;801238I've never once, in almost 35 years, seen a PC use our random roll method

It will help in understanding your position to know what method of random rolling your group is using and why your group chose such method.

Back in January '94 during the major snowstorm in the midwest.  The base I was at was shut down.  So there we were bored out of our minds, except us gamers we were happily playing some D&D(Undermountain).  We went through a number of semi-drunk people in the barracks wondering what we were doing and then asking to play.  Using the Dm's dice, one of those semi-drunk peeps rolled: 16,18,18,14,18,18 for stats. Didn't have a clue what he had done, but we spent an hour or more marveling about it.  The guy then proceeded to fail on (almost)every single d20 roll he had to make for the rest of the night.  He never came back.

Quote from: Will;801716Backing up Bren's point, I did 5 runs of 5-player groups.

In 3 of the five groups, there was one person whose highest score was at least 4 points below the highest score of the rest of the group, which translates to a 20%+ greater chance of missing.

So, _realistically_, this is going to come up more often than not.

Um... what? Are you even playing D&D?

A score 4 points below someone elses would translate to a -2 at best. Which is only a +10%.
Example, Say Kefra has a 12 STR and I have a 16, (Which our characters do currently) I  only have a +2 bonus over her. Which is a 10% better chance to whatever. Im sure Kefra is weeping at the unfairness of it... not.

... Yeah, you're right. Stupid kids and sleep deprivation.

Ok, it's not great (it's still two ability score bonuses difference), but it's not as terrible as I'd feared, in practice, in 5e.

Since I think Sacrosanct may have missed this, I'll reiterate more clearly:

After seeing ACTUAL NUMBERS (which I had to end up providing), I'm convinced that, in practice, 4d6 drop lowest provides close enough balance to use without significant problem and I wouldn't have a problem playing in such a game.

So hey, actual information and reasonable argument convinced me to change my views.


Thank you to all the folks who stepped in to engage rationally on the topic.

Quote from: Old One Eye;801776It will help in understanding your position to know what method of random rolling your group is using and why your group chose such method.

Stuff 3d6 up your butt and squeeze hard.

As to why, I got nothin'.

Quote from: Will;802779Since I think Sacrosanct may have missed this, I'll reiterate more clearly:

After seeing ACTUAL NUMBERS (which I had to end up providing), I'm convinced that, in practice, 4d6 drop lowest provides close enough balance to use without significant problem and I wouldn't have a problem playing in such a game.

So hey, actual information and reasonable argument convinced me to change my views.


Thank you to all the folks who stepped in to engage rationally on the topic.

And thanks to you for your examples; going back over the Star Wars game, if I hadn't been able to spend Force Points like water, that game would have sucked; with only a +1 on DEX and no other plusses, I'd have been always far inferior to characters with multiple, higher bonuses.  In a solo situation it wouldn't be as bad, but in a group it would be "stand back and let the real characters play."  Or else you're being dumb and not using the character with a decent chance of success.

IN SWd20 you can burn a Force Point and add a certain number of d6 to a d20 roll.  I don't remember the progression exactly, but I think that at about 9th or 10th level, I started adding 3d6 to a d20, which on the average adds a nice juicy +10.5, which SERIOUSLY affects how the game plays.

Quote from: Will;802779Since I think Sacrosanct may have missed this, I'll reiterate more clearly:

After seeing ACTUAL NUMBERS (which I had to end up providing), I'm convinced that, in practice, 4d6 drop lowest provides close enough balance to use without significant problem and I wouldn't have a problem playing in such a game.

My group splits the difference: everybody rolls 4d6/drop lowest, and if they don't like the results they can always opt to use the standard array instead.

Quote from: Old Geezer;802807

Quote from: Will;802779After seeing ACTUAL NUMBERS (which I had to end up providing), I'm convinced that, in practice, 4d6 drop lowest provides close enough balance to use without significant problem and I wouldn't have a problem playing in such a game.

So hey, actual information and reasonable argument convinced me to change my views.


Thank you to all the folks who stepped in to engage rationally on the topic.

And thanks to you for your examples; going back over the Star Wars game, if I hadn't been able to spend Force Points like water, that game would have sucked; with only a +1 on DEX and no other plusses, I'd have been always far inferior to characters with multiple, higher bonuses.  In a solo situation it wouldn't be as bad, but in a group it would be "stand back and let the real characters play."  Or else you're being dumb and not using the character with a decent chance of success.

IN SWd20 you can burn a Force Point and add a certain number of d6 to a d20 roll.  I don't remember the progression exactly, but I think that at about 9th or 10th level, I started adding 3d6 to a d20, which on the average adds a nice juicy +10.5, which SERIOUSLY affects how the game plays.

Changing opinions and new realizations about game play. Nice job you two. Sometimes exchanges of opinions and experiences on e-forums actually works. Sweet.

I've always valued an environment where I'm free to be wrong without people locking down into orthodoxy, and I'm quick to accept people going 'oh fuck, yeah, I'm wrong' without holding it against them (generally).

I think it might be a northeast cultural thing, maybe? Or something.

Yell at each other, have a beer, then weep over another beer and slap each other on the back and get on with it.

Quote from: will;802818yell at each other, have a beer, then weep over another beer and slap each other on the back and get on with it.

I love you, man!

(stupid board won't post all caps...)