Quote from: Sacrosanct;800841Will, the context of this conversation is the difference between random stat generation and non-random, and asking for someone, anyone, to give a rational argument as to why random stat generation results in feeling like you're cheated, gimped, or restricted from playing your PC (all arguments that have been presented in the past).

You haven't been able to answer that without going way outside of the boundaries of that context.  You're throwing out level 20 vs level 1.  18000gp vs 500gp.  None of that matters because we're talking about the difference in stat generation methods only.

That seems bizarrely literal and limited perspective. Ok, we'll stick to stats only.

Character 1:
All scores are between 3 and 8.

Character 2:
All scores are between 14 and 20.


Substitute that in. I wasn't trying to be misleading, coy, or evasive bringing up level or gear. I thought it was obviously analogous, apparently you disagree.

In 5e I don't see how it would but I do remember running more than one fighter type that had 16 or 17 in STR and fairly average scores (10-13 everywhere else) in the same games with others that had 18/00 and 17's, 16's across the board in 2e and in definitely ruined my fun. My solution was to start making F/M characters to give me other areas to focus on and taking the need to have an absolutely top statline like others in my group away that just flat rolled well in character generation consistently.

Quote from: Will;800859That seems bizarrely literal and limited perspective. Ok, we'll stick to stats only.

Character 1:
All scores are between 3 and 8.

Character 2:
All scores are between 14 and 20.


Substitute that in. I wasn't trying to be misleading, coy, or evasive bringing up level or gear. I thought it was obviously analogous, apparently you disagree.

You've had many games where a PC had every score between 3 and 8 with another with every stat between 14 and 20?


I've brought up the hyperbole bit because it's important.  If you can't even attempt at trying to make a point without it, then I think we're just done here.

Quote from: estar;800814In short it is not as big of deal in 5e as it is in previous editions except for OD&D core books only.

Good summary. Yeah this is why I wouldn't be quite as bothered, since 5e is like this.

Now if I had a crappy GM and playing a different edition... I might feel the mediocrity a bit more.

Quote from: trechriron;800849If I'm playing and can participate without being sidelined by "more powerful characters", I'm having fun and therefor don't care about any "imbalance".

This too. That is the core of the issue for me. I've had GMs and players at the table who were awesome and any obvious stat disparities were non-issues. On the other hand... that ONE campaign of 3e I went through... ugh...

But edition warring aside, the quality of people at your table means more than the quality of your character's stats, in my opinion.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800798So honest question for those who have made those arguments.  If you don't know what stats another PC has, how does that ruin your fun?

Estar's breakdown mirrors one I did several years ago in a similar discussion, in which I eventually wondered out loud, "Okay.  What IS the mechanical advantage between Awesome Stats and Not So Awesome stats?"  It turned out to be a bit less than a single level's worth of advantage.

I do have an answer to someone inclined to throw a hissy fit about that: if it bothers you that goddamn much, don't play RPGs with random gen.

Beyond that, I've ranted at length on the subject, but "He's ruining my fun!" is a turn of phrase I've come to despise.  It's somehow seen to be a trump card to end all debate, and we're supposed to take it on faith, without bothering with pesky issues of whether the opinion is reasonable or not.  Honestly, I believe the effective translation is "I'm a self-absorbed solipsist who can't deal with people who disagree with me or have different preferences, likes, dislikes or prejudices from mine."

Do most people guard their character sheet and keep all their stuff hidden from the other players? That seems weird.

Anyway to answer the op I've never been bothered if someone else had higher stats than my dude, I have preferred random rolling over PB and sometimes it just comes with the territory. Now if someone cheats to get high scores it pisses me off but that has nothing to do with higher scores and everything to do with disliking cheats.

When my elf only has a 14 and the other guys all have 16s, my elf is literally crying.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800867You've had many games where a PC had every score between 3 and 8 with another with every stat between 14 and 20?

I've almost never been in games with random stats, not since grade school.

Another game I was in had a 'random value' that was so stupidly generous everyone ended up with lots (and you could always decide to go with point buy). One time I managed to be about 2 points, total, more than standard. Didn't have an observable effect.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800867I've brought up the hyperbole bit because it's important.  If you can't even attempt at trying to make a point without it, then I think we're just done here.

It's not hyperbole, it's called making an argument.

I'm trying to pin down if numbers are important at all. Is there _any_ amount of numbers where it matters? I assume yes, but maybe you don't care however much power difference there is.

If numbers DO matter, is the value difference ever likely to come up? We haven't even gotten to that part because you keep calling 'working out the boundaries of the argument' hyperbole.

And in case it matters, yet again I will point out that 'random stats' doesn't have to be 'random point total.'

I like random characters (lifepath, jumble where your stats go). I don't like random point totals.

Quote from: Will;800872I've almost never been in games with random stats, not since grade school.

Another game I was in had a 'random value' that was so stupidly generous everyone ended up with lots (and you could always decide to go with point buy). One time I managed to be about 2 points, total, more than standard. Didn't have an observable effect.

so then that's a "no" then.  You've never really encounted this problem either.  Seems odd you would be defending it then.

QuoteIt's not hyperbole, it's called making an argument.
.

If you can't make an argument without extreme hyperbole and exaggeration?  Pretty weak argument.  Just saying.

Ok, man, you totally had me going. Kudos!

Quote from: misterguignol;800871When my elf only has a 14 and the other guys all have 16s, my elf is literally crying.

He's an elf, of course he's crying.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800798When you're rolling a random result between a 1 and 20, and extra +1 or +2 won't even be noticeable unless you're really paying attention and doing the math in your head, and why would you?  It's not your PC.

Because it is easy to do since it's just simple arithmetic. And I'm already used to doing that as the GM.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800824And who does that?

That would be me again. Personally I find it odd when no one else at the table does that sort of simple calculation. It reminds of going to a fast food restaurant or store where the cashier can't calculate how to make change without first punching numbers in the register.

Quote from: Raven;800870Do most people guard their character sheet and keep all their stuff hidden from the other players? That seems weird.

Why? Well that's how we all started playing OD&D. Only the DM and the player necessarily knew a PC's stats. The assumption was that other characters didn't know what level your character was outside of observable phenomena so you didn't show them your character sheet as that would be out of character knowledge. Also I guess some of us liked keeping secrets.

I guess I'm just different then, because I find it odd that a player would sit and figure out all the bonuses another player has when that other player is making an attack roll or check or saving throw.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;800803You need to throw a tantrum until the DM bumps up your stats to match. It's the only mature and well adjusted thing to do.

Quote from: Bren;800807No. No! NO!

He should insist that the DM lowers the other players stats because as everyone should know by now, you don't make everyone equal by raising one person up. You make everyone equal by knocking everyone who towers above the lowest common denominator down.

You know, there is always the option of letting the offended party just go fuck himself because he is being infantile.