OK, the title is a bit hyperbolic, but let me try to explain where I'm going here.  In our games, we typically roll 4d6 drop lowest, but really any method of random rolling would work.

My PCs stats are 18, 16, 14, 11, 10, 9, after racial bonuses and using the level 4 stat bump.

We've been playing several sessions as a group, up to about level 5 now.  On Saturday, I happened to notice some of the other character sheets.  One guy has stats of 20, 18, 17, 16, 14, 14.  The other has 18, 17, 15, 15, 13, 13.  I think.  Those 14s and 13s might have been switched, but no matter.  Point is, their stats are way higher than mine.

And I didn't notice it during game play.  Never impacted how I ran my PC.  But if I am to believe a lot of people, I should feel cheated?  I should feel gimped?  I should feel like I can't play my character the way I want because he can't compete?  These are all frequent arguments I've heard against random stat gen.  (whether or not they cheated isn't important; that's the DM's job to worry about that, not mine).

So honest question for those who have made those arguments.  If you don't know what stats another PC has, how does that ruin your fun?  Because from what I can see, it really doesn't impact the actual game play of your PC if you don't know how many +'s they have.  When you're rolling a random result between a 1 and 20, and extra +1 or +2 won't even be noticeable unless you're really paying attention and doing the math in your head, and why would you?  It's not your PC.

What if those other folks had a few levels more than you because of a random die roll? How many more levels before you notice or care?

Pragmatically, it's only noticeable or important when it starts being noticeable or important. If your highest score was, say, 12, you'd more likely notice a difference.

Esthetically, it's bothersome from a 'why are we doing this?'

You need to throw a tantrum until the DM bumps up your stats to match. It's the only mature and well adjusted thing to do.

I don't think you answered my question on how it ruins your fun if someone  has higher stats than you.  Closest you came was a false equivilancey of trying to compare different levels.

Speaking of, having another player a level or 2 higher than me hasn't ruined my fun in 30+ years, so even if it were a valid comparison, still doesn't explain why it would ruin your fun.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;800803You need to throw a tantrum until the DM bumps up your stats to match. It's the only mature and well adjusted thing to do.

No. No! NO!

He should insist that the DM lowers the other players stats because as everyone should know by now, you don't make everyone equal by raising one person up. You make everyone equal by knocking everyone who towers above the lowest common denominator down.

Well, clearly 'honest question' is utter bullshit.

Have fun with your echo chamber.

In my current open table FLGS campaign any new player joining does so with a 1st level character. The party is well into 3rd level and we just had a new player join them last week.

He had a blast playing his character and was 2 whole levels behind everyone else. When his fighter got wounded and knocked down to 2hp, he disengaged and retreated. This was a player brand new to rpgs and he had the sense to recognize a bad situation and take steps to mitigate it. He was playing his character like a person with a bit of common sense. It was a breath of fresh air to get him into the group.

It doesn't ruin your fun, because it shouldn't.
The GM is supposed to be able to make the gaming experience entertaining for all involved anyway, no matter what the Players stats are.
This also means though, that "I killed most orcs" boasts better not leave the playing table, because they practically means nothing.

Quote from: Will;800809Well, clearly 'honest question' is utter bullshit.

Have fun with your echo chamber.

In the words of the Philosopher Eastwood: "A man's got to know his limitations."

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800798My PCs stats are 18, 16, 14, 11, 10, 9

Which is really

+4,+3,+2, +0,+0, +0

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800798
One guy has stats of 20, 18, 17, 16, 14, 14.  
The other has 18, 17, 15, 15, 13, 13.  [/QUOTEWhich is
+5,+4,+3,+3,+2,+2

and

+4,+3,+2,+2,+1,+1


The first guy has a 5% better chance of doing his best thing versus your best thing.

The second guys has a equal chance of doing his best thing versus your best thing.

If you were both melee fighters this would the first guy would be

+1 or 5% more likely to hit something.

Have one more hit points per level than you (assuming he pick Con as his second stat)

Have +1 AC or 5% less likely than you of being hit.

The second guy is exactly the same as you.

Now looking at at the worst thing the first guy is at versus the worse thing you are at.

We find that first guy is consistently has a +3 to +2 advantage over you. I.e. a 15% to 10% advantage.

The second buy has only +2 to +1 advantage over you. +10% to +5% advantage.

Given the effects of proficiencies and class abilities (particularly expertise and certain feats) the higher stats are nice but not automatic win for the other characters.

I find that creative thinking and mastery of tactics counts for more in 5e than raw stats.

All of this is largely due to bounded accuracy where it is hard to generate a big bonus over and above everybody else.  At 20th level it possible to have +20 to skill. +5 ability, +6 prof doubled by expertise, +3 magic bonus. A plain character would have a +11 to skill. +45% advantage, signficant but nothing like how it was with 3e, 4e, even classic D&D for that matter.

For combat the best +14 (+5 ability, +6 prof, +3 magic) verse +5 for a plain character without proficency. +11 with proficiency. And the way the rules are written you will have that +5 ability modifier unless you actively avoid it by picking feats every time.

In short it is not as big of deal in 5e as it is in previous editions except for OD&D core books only.

Quote from: Will;800809Well, clearly 'honest question' is utter bullshit.

Have fun with your echo chamber.

Oh please.  Stop with the victimization complex.  The only "dishonest" post here was yours, in not only not answering my question, but for somehow trying to equate it with giving someone extra levels for a random die roll or two.

You essentially pulled the rpg version of "If gays are allowed to marry, then what's stopping people from marrying animals!"

If you can't answer the question with an actual answer, then don't blame everyone else.

Quote from: estar;800814I find that creative thinking and mastery of tactics counts for more in 5e than raw stats.
.

This is my impression as well, which is why I had the observation that one wouldn't even notice another PC having a higher stat than them unless they reverse engineered the math of their die rolls.  And who does that?  And therefore, based on that assumption (you wouldn't notice another player having a higher stat most of the time), how would that impact you having fun playing your PC?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;800824Oh please.  Stop with the victimization complex.  The only "dishonest" post here was yours, in not only not answering my question, but for somehow trying to equate it with giving someone extra levels for a random die roll or two.

I don't feel like a victim, you're just full of shit.

Also, I did answer the question, you are apparently just too stupid to pick up on the general issue of 'power inequity.'

Then again, given this topic has been discussed ad nauseum, there are really only two possibilities: you are trolling, or you are a fucking idiot.

Quote from: Will;800828'power inequity.'

and you say you don't think everything's political?

I ended up deleting the message, because I'm just irritable today (lots of people saying really stupid shit, everywhere).

As for power inequity... I think that says more about you than me, bub, if you think 'politics!!' rather than, say, The BMX Bandit and the Angel Summoner.

Without any actual comment of use, i will say your buds stats totally belong in the "stats so good it looks like cheating" thread.