Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;798867So, I know this thread has morphed and mutated into something very different from the original post, but I've been unable to post for a couple of days and wanted to go back to the Fighter with archer specialty scenario at the beginning.

One of the things that struck me was that we were only focusing on damage output. While I think Sacrosanct demonstrated that the damage output of the Fighter at least matches that of the Warlock there's also another approach to take.

Instead of selecting the Champion archetype at 3rd level, the archer might want to consider taking the Battle Master archetype. Yes, this won't give him access to the expanded crit range, but it will make him a much more versatile fighter.

I looked over the list of maneuvers, only a handful of them are melee weapon specific. If I've read the rules correctly the Battlemaster will eventually learn a total of 11 maneuvers. There's a ton of useful effects available and what's best is the player can select either Str. or Dex. as the controlling attribute for his DC checks.

Pick moves like Disarming strike, Menacing attack, Precision Attack, Pushing Attack or Trip Attack to go all Green Arrow on your opponents.

Use Commander's Strike, Distracting Strike, and Maneuvering Attack to tactically assist other players to score decisive blows.

Evasive Footwork will help protect you if you have to move away from closing combatants and find a new spot to fire from and Parry will help you out if they get too close after all. You can even throw in Rally to help keep party members alive in a pinch and there's some tactical merits to wanting Goading Attack in your quiver of stunts.

As this version of the archer gains multiple attacks he will be able to use the tactical bonus maneuvers to aid the party and still be able to fire a couple damaging shots in the same turn.

What? You actually read the rules? Blasphemy!!! Also it's within RAW that uses feats to pick Martial Adept even IF you're a Battle Master....

Basically between Backgrounds, feats and subclass choice no Warlock will outdo the Fighter at fighting. And no multiclassing is needed to still be good at the 2 other pillars (exploration and social) unlike 2-3e. Warlocks are there for people that love magic users but hate complexity with the bonus of being not totally squishy and absolutely deadly in the Social phase because of their maximum CHA. Just a nice well rounded blaster without CharOp shenanigans.

Quote from: IceBlinkLuck;798867So, I know this thread has morphed and mutated into something very different from the original post, but I've been unable to post for a couple of days and wanted to go back to the Fighter with archer specialty scenario at the beginning.

One of the things that struck me was that we were only focusing on damage output. While I think Sacrosanct demonstrated that the damage output of the Fighter at least matches that of the Warlock there's also another approach to take.

Instead of selecting the Champion archetype at 3rd level, the archer might want to consider taking the Battle Master archetype. Yes, this won't give him access to the expanded crit range, but it will make him a much more versatile fighter.

I looked over the list of maneuvers, only a handful of them are melee weapon specific. If I've read the rules correctly the Battlemaster will eventually learn a total of 11 maneuvers. There's a ton of useful effects available and what's best is the player can select either Str. or Dex. as the controlling attribute for his DC checks.

Pick moves like Disarming strike, Menacing attack, Precision Attack, Pushing Attack or Trip Attack to go all Green Arrow on your opponents.

Use Commander's Strike, Distracting Strike, and Maneuvering Attack to tactically assist other players to score decisive blows.

Evasive Footwork will help protect you if you have to move away from closing combatants and find a new spot to fire from and Parry will help you out if they get too close after all. You can even throw in Rally to help keep party members alive in a pinch and there's some tactical merits to wanting Goading Attack in your quiver of stunts.

As this version of the archer gains multiple attacks he will be able to use the tactical bonus maneuvers to aid the party and still be able to fire a couple damaging shots in the same turn.

I think the real issue is just that its a paradigm shift from the "classic" caster mode and I found that as a jolt.

I am old and D&D is like an old pair of slippers you slip on when you want to play a game that is entirely familiar and the at will cantrippy stuff is a huge shift from that model.

to me at least having a dude who by 11th level can make 3 attacks at d10 + (chr mod)  damage at a range of 600 feet (spell sniper) just seems tough. the fact that the fighter ranger may be equally pimped in certain conditions. Its the entire paradigm shift and the continuous nature of the thing.
Casters , in ye olden days, were awesome when they could prepare and plan, so the fun of playing a caster was the prep and the planning. A caster would be 10 times more powerful than a mundane archer on the single attack or where they had planned but it was a limited pool. The fighter's advantage was they can carry on all day doing their thing where as htte caster used to have to eek out their resources.
That paradigm shift disappears with the damage cantrip. Now the caster, not just warlocks all casters, can churn out an at will attack that is comparable to the fighter of the same level and do that continuously.
Now you can modify the fighter so they have the opportunity in some circumstances to pull out a special move. This in effect is the same as the caster's pool of spells. each class churns out a similar chunk of damage each round that grows progressively with level and also has access to some "special actions" be they spells, feats or class powers that bump that damage output up for that round. but remove the names of the powers and its a wash
Now I haven't played enough 5e yet to see if these concerns play out. Will the classes actually be fairly indistinguishable just with different flavour text. Will the non-combat stuff be compelling enough that a Warlock, for example, could take an entirely different path than the initially obvious max out EB and spam? I don't know yet but I am just voicing my concerns and more critically the voices of my players who are new to D&D entirely and fairly new to Tabletop games entirely. "He can do that every round for no cost?" was the ask.

Jibba, only 11th level FIGHTERS get 3 seperate attacks. No other class no matter the subclass gets more then 2 attacks total. Eldritch Blast is just like Magic Missle it allows for multiple targets per attack but not multiple attacks per round. A Blade Pact warlock with the  Thirsting Blade feat at 5th level does get 2 weapon attacks and they still don't get CHA damage until 12th level with the Lifedrinker feat. That's 2 out of 5 feats they get. And that is only for physical attacks, they can't mix magic with weapon attacks unless they multiclass into Eldritch Knight or Valour Bard. With the Valor Bard that takes 14 levels into the Bard class but it's only usable for bard spells and with the EK it's at 7th level but only for cantrips.

So yes you could be a Bard(VC)14/Warlock(BP) 6 and make 2 attacks, one physical and one magic per round with bard spells or a Warlock(BP) 13/Fighter(EK) 7 and do the same with cantrips only.

But if you're using EB it's ONE per round split to whatever targets IF you have multiple beams or just ONE target. Which is player choice exactly like Magic Missle. If you decide to use it in melee you suffer disadvantage on your attack roll also. Hence the reason why it's powerful and a cantrip because it is basically like Magic Missle but NOT autohit.

As I've noted elsewhere and during the playtest. The at-will combat cantrips needed a little reigning in. Which they actually did!

Next Chill touch, Ray of Frost, and Shocking Grasp was a d8. Bumped up to 2d8 at 5, 3d8 at 10, 4d8 at 15, and 5d8 at 20.

In 5e Chill Touch, Ray of Frost, and Shocking Grasp are still a d8, but now it bumps at 5, 11, and 17, maxing at 4d8.

Eldrich Blast works the same, it just uses a d10.

It was originally 3d6! and bumped to 4d6 at level 3! (Playtest Warlock (and the other classes) only went to level 5 at that time.) Oh, and it didnt need a free hand. You could just look at someone and nuke em!

I still think it should have been a d8 like the others or at least Warlock only like it originally was. But it works as is since the Warlock has fewer spells to call on and a bit less versatility. Someone at WOTC thought it was warranted.

Yes, it removes the "plan ahead" aspect of casters and takes a little, or alot, of adjusting to.

Playing the Warlock on the Blade path and as mentioned in another thread I went with the idea of acquiring shield mastery right off and using the shield as my weapon (1d6 damage as per Next). I use that more than EB because its more fun to beat people up with a shield made of pure magic. I fall back on EB when something is out of reach like aerial foes.

In the group I am DMing for though the groups sorcerer picked up Eldrich Blast. But hardly ever uses it. He uses Chromatic Orb far more than his cantrip.

Quote from: Omega;798916As I've noted elsewhere and during the playtest. The at-will combat cantrips needed a little reigning in. Which they actually did!

Next Chill touch, Ray of Frost, and Shocking Grasp was a d8. Bumped up to 2d8 at 5, 3d8 at 10, 4d8 at 15, and 5d8 at 20.

In 5e Chill Touch, Ray of Frost, and Shocking Grasp are still a d8, but now it bumps at 5, 11, and 17, maxing at 4d8.

Eldrich Blast works the same, it just uses a d10.

It was originally 3d6! and bumped to 4d6 at level 3! (Playtest Warlock (and the other classes) only went to level 5 at that time.) Oh, and it didnt need a free hand. You could just look at someone and nuke em!

I still think it should have been a d8 like the others or at least Warlock only like it originally was. But it works as is since the Warlock has fewer spells to call on and a bit less versatility. Someone at WOTC thought it was warranted.

Yes, it removes the "plan ahead" aspect of casters and takes a little, or alot, of adjusting to.

Playing the Warlock on the Blade path and as mentioned in another thread I went with the idea of acquiring shield mastery right off and using the shield as my weapon (1d6 damage as per Next). I use that more than EB because its more fun to beat people up with a shield made of pure magic. I fall back on EB when something is out of reach like aerial foes.

In the group I am DMing for though the groups sorcerer picked up Eldrich Blast. But hardly ever uses it. He uses Chromatic Orb far more than his cantrip.

Chromatic Orb is a 1st level spell not a cantrip. So you better believe he'd use it more if the option is there or the situation allows it.

Quote from: jibbajibba;798899That paradigm shift disappears with the damage cantrip. Now the caster, not just warlocks all casters, can churn out an at will attack that is comparable to the fighter of the same level and do that continuously.

That where you are wrong. Cantrips are not comparable to what the fighter can do in melee. Cantrips just give casters something to do when they run out of spell slots.

Quote from: estar;799014That where you are wrong. Cantrips are not comparable to what the fighter can do in melee. Cantrips just give casters something to do when they run out of spell slots.

Disagree strongly.
I said comparable not exactly the same they are definitely comparable.

1st level -
 (take the archer skill as that is what we have been considering and consider each PC with a 17 in theiir "prime stat")

Fighter - +7 to hit 1d8+3 damage (using a lowbow) range 150/600
Warlock EB - +5 to hit 1d10 damage  range 120
Wizard (using fire bolt for variation) -  +5 /1d10 + incendiary range 120

5th level

Fighter + 8 to hit 1d8+3 damage 2 attacks  + sharpshooter
Warlock +6 to hit 1d10+3 damage 2 attacks + spell snipe (which gives Fire bolt as a free cantrip as well) + push target back 10 feet on a hit
Wizard +6 to hit 2d10 damage + spell snipe

action surge for the fighter is effectively a "spell" due to its usage parameters

11th level
Fighter +9 to Hit 1d8+3 damage 3 attacks + maybe martial adept (??)
Warlock +7 to hit 1d10+3 damage 3 attacks double range  + War casting (??)
Wizard +7 to hit 3d10 damage etc

Now I agree the fighter has more options in combat but the casters both have spell, class powers etc as well so ..
We have already stated the rules for casting 1 hand free, etc are more flexible that for using a bow and there is no need for ammo.

Now I think the caster's cantrips here are comparible to the specialist fighter archer. I do agree the fighter can drop his bow and enter combat and be better here but the caster never needs to get near combat so its a moot suggestion.
Now I can see that a cantrip to prevent the caster having to be throwing daggers from levels 1-4 after their spells are exhausted is more flavourful but I would expect that to be less required after 4th level as they have enough options. So why have it increase in damage if its not to stay relevant as a main attack option?

I was in favour of a cantrip dealing 1d8 that maybe had some flavour (heat, chill, electric etc) but I kind of feel that they should remain that level of output a replacement for a mundane attack but to me at least it appears they decided to keep them comparable to a fighter's output with missile weapons at the same level.

You missed Sharpshooter for the fighter since you are handing out the Feats to the casters here.

Sharpshooter grants a +10 damage at the cost of -5 to hit.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799039I do agree the fighter can drop his bow and enter combat and be better here but the caster never needs to get near combat so its a moot suggestion.

The benefit for the fighter isn't just choosing between ranged and melee, it is the ability of the fighter who has been caught in melee to react to that situation far better than a ranged only character.

Quote from: jibbajibba;799039I was in favour of a cantrip dealing 1d8 that maybe had some flavour (heat, chill, electric etc) but I kind of feel that they should remain that level of output a replacement for a mundane attack but to me at least it appears they decided to keep them comparable to a fighter's output with missile weapons at the same level.

Why do you have such a problem with a caster doing 1d10 as opposed to a 1d8 on a basic ranged attack?

AGAIN nobody EVER gets the ability to make more then ONE spell attack per round not even with Haste. The only way a warlock gets even TWO physical weapon attacks is by taking the Blade Pact AND a feat. Could you please stop talking out of ignorance of the actual rules Jibba?

Eldritch's Blast advantage is the ability to either focus fire or target multiple targets with each use. Other then that it's fairly comparable to any typical physical ranged attack and works under the same penalties in melee.

Quote from: Marleycat;799047The only way a warlock gets even TWO physical weapon attacks is by taking the Blade Pact AND an Invocation.

FTFY

Quote from: Emperor Norton;799052FTFY

Hah! You're correct. Either way my point is still valid that it takes no small amount of investment and you're still no fighter.

Quote from: Marleycat;799047AGAIN nobody EVER gets the ability to make more then ONE spell attack per round not even with Haste. The only way a warlock gets even TWO physical weapon attacks is by taking the Blade Pact AND a feat. Could you please stop talking out of ignorance of the actual rules Jibba?

Eldritch's Blast advantage is the ability to either focus fire or target multiple targets with each use. Other then that it's fairly comparable to any typical physical ranged attack and works under the same penalties in melee.

There's technically no rule against the possibility of more than one spell attack per round. It is just the pool of spells available currently make it extremely rare. The big restriction is the rule for Bonus Action spells, where afterwards the only thing you can cast with your Action is a Cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

I know this because I have a mid-level cleric. I'd routinely cast Warding Bond ahead of time (1 hr duration) on the tank, and have a concentration spell up like Bless or Spirit Guardians. Then if things need more firepower Spirit Weapon as a Bonus Action (lasts 1 min, Bonus Action melee spell attack, usable immediately), followed by Sacred Flame (1 Action cantrip) in the same round. You could easily end up with Spirit Guardians, Spirit Weapon, Sacred Flame going off each round for 1 min — which seems gross — but you were better off with using your Action to Dodge, so as to help keep your Spirit Guardians on.

However, if it wasn't for Leomund's Tiny Hut, Fighters pour on the damage after everyone else runs out of steam. With the Hut though, the entire Short Rest economy is thrown out the window for most newbie GMs. Have a very short leash on that spell, metagame against it now; it's the "15 min workday" returned.

Quote from: snooggums;799046The benefit for the fighter isn't just choosing between ranged and melee, it is the ability of the fighter who has been caught in melee to react to that situation far better than a ranged only character.



Why do you have such a problem with a caster doing 1d10 as opposed to a 1d8 on a basic ranged attack?

Becuase it either stacks to 2d10, 3d10, 4d10 as they level or the number of attacks increases.

If I had designed the Cantrip they would have been 1d6 or 1d8 (comparable to arrows) plus effect (fire, cold etc) they would not have grown in damage or increased in number per round as you levelled.
There would be an option to Use spell slots to increase the range, effect or damage of a cantrip.

So in effect the simple magical effect to replace the low level caster having to throw stones thus maintaining flavour etc but it doesn't turn into a machine gun or a howitzer at Higher levels.  with an option to pour more of your magical power into it if you needed to but obviously at a cost.

Quote from: Marleycat;799047AGAIN nobody EVER gets the ability to make more then ONE spell attack per round not even with Haste. The only way a warlock gets even TWO physical weapon attacks is by taking the Blade Pact AND a feat. Could you please stop talking out of ignorance of the actual rules Jibba?

Eldritch's Blast advantage is the ability to either focus fire or target multiple targets with each use. Other then that it's fairly comparable to any typical physical ranged attack and works under the same penalties in melee.

What are you talkign about? We are talking about the ranged cantrip damage which I have claimed is comparable to a fighters ranged damage as Estar claimed it was not...