Either way, that's not really relevant to the overall topic: that at will cantrips suddenly break the game world.  Finding one or two versions where one or two spells have a physical cost to them in no way really addresses this overall topic.

My position is that they don't really any more than they've always had.  Even in AD&D 1e, 1st level create water, purify food and drink, and charm person would totally have dramatic effects if we actually played them "realistically".  And those are from 1st level casters, which are all over the place.  That doesn't even get into second level spells, like continual light.

"Oh, you want acceptance into the mage's guild to get out of your poverty?  Great news.  I'll give you scholarship to your school if you give one year's service afterward for every term you're in school."

Once they're done, they work for the state cranking out continual light bulbs in a form of indentured servitude to pay off their tuition debt.


But I'm betting none of us actually play like that, or with 1st level clerics preventing people of dying from thirst in every small town during drought.  So frankly, I find it a bit silly to get all worked up about cantrips when most people do not in fact create castles with spamming at will mending in their games for the same reason you don't see the above running rampant in every other version.

And that's not even counting the numerous other parts of the game that totally break a realistic game world that exist in every edition.

I never got why people got their undergarments in a twist about this sort of thing, why is it the end or the world if D&Dworld cities have magic streetlights. I always thought that was a cool background detail, having the setting being exactly like medieval Europe despite having Dragons and wizards is super dumb.

Quote from: gamerGoyf;798731I never got why people got their undergarments in a twist about this sort of thing, why is it the end or the world if D&Dworld cities have magic streetlights. I always thought that was a cool background detail, having the setting being exactly like medieval Europe despite having Dragons and wizards is super dumb.

OK, but just don't reduce the list of polearms.  Some things are sacred.

I've thought about just letting mages cast whatever spells they want, whenever they want, without worrying about spell slots/points. Just do it Spawn-style...they have a counter that slowly decreases and have no idea when they'll run out of power.

Might actually work really well for Warlocks.

Quote from: Brad;798741I've thought about just letting mages cast whatever spells they want, whenever they want, without worrying about spell slots/points. Just do it Spawn-style...they have a counter that slowly decreases and have no idea when they'll run out of power.

Might actually work really well for Warlocks.

That actually sounds pretty interesting, but something a bit more gentle (after random d100 castings, roll on a "screwyou" chart). Well, fun in theory, pretty sure it'd be unworkable, except for NPCs.

Quote from: Omega;7987135e Continual Flame also costs 50gp in ruby dust each time it is cast.

And can be dispelled for 0gp...

Quote from: Brad;798741I've thought about just letting mages cast whatever spells they want, whenever they want, without worrying about spell slots/points. Just do it Spawn-style...they have a counter that slowly decreases and have no idea when they'll run out of power.

Might actually work really well for Warlocks.

I've always preferred something similar to Wheel of Time/GURPS/Mage  which is a mix of physical fatigue, secrecy, lack of knowledge, taboo, political and social limits both mundane and among the gifted and possibly insanity/paradox/taint/etc. That is how a functional real world would work.

Awesome, you can use cantrips all day in perfect conditions but nothing is ever perfect and every action takes energy and energy isn't limitless or others make laws against such action and so on and so forth.

Quote from: gamerGoyf;798731I never got why people got their undergarments in a twist about this sort of thing, why is it the end or the world if D&Dworld cities have magic streetlights. I always thought that was a cool background detail, having the setting being exactly like medieval Europe despite having Dragons and wizards is super dumb.

Meh, part of the bizarre behavior where people who do not like a game will discuss it adnauseum online I suppose?  While I can understand that every once in a while (cathartic release after a bad day or whatever), odd that some folks seem to want to spend their time doing so every day.  So every little thing gets nit picked.

One idea I had was that you can cast N levels of spells.

And then you die.

And you don't know how big N is.

Quote from: Will;798767One idea I had was that you can cast N levels of spells.

And then you die.

And you don't know how big N is.

Great idea for a book or story but horrible for a RPG that isn't specifically horror and even then not fun on most levels for most. See Mage the Ascension Revised to see why.

When playing AD&D whenever the party had extended downtime the spelled asters would crank out as many continual light stones as they could. We'd use them as combat/exploration lighting as well as giveaways to curry favour.

Quote from: Will;798767One idea I had was that you can cast N levels of spells.

And then you die.

And you don't know how big N is.

That's essentially the 80s Marvel Comic book "Strikeforce: Morituri", except in a science fiction setting.

//Panjumanju

In AD&D 2e my cleric (who revered elephants and carved ivory) supplied the party with Continual Light lamps made from small bits of ivory with sheathes you could cover them with (when you want the light off).

Clever, eh?

The DM frowned a bit, decided this was 'too good' and changed the range from 60 to 20.

I tried to point out that if he wanted to limit the things, the 'slowly destroys what you cast it on' gave him carte blanche to do something like 'it burns through bits of whatever in a few hours' or something, but no.

Quote from: gamerGoyf;798731I never got why people got their undergarments in a twist about this sort of thing, why is it the end or the world if D&Dworld cities have magic streetlights. I always thought that was a cool background detail, having the setting being exactly like medieval Europe despite having Dragons and wizards is super dumb.

A game setting with magical streetlights and other magic as technology sounds fun and like a nice change from most fantasy fiction.

But I wouldn't want to see that as the standard in all D&D settings. Also doing things that make the setting unique also makes the setting less understandable for new players than "it's just like historical X except with some magic and dragons."

So, I know this thread has morphed and mutated into something very different from the original post, but I've been unable to post for a couple of days and wanted to go back to the Fighter with archer specialty scenario at the beginning.

One of the things that struck me was that we were only focusing on damage output. While I think Sacrosanct demonstrated that the damage output of the Fighter at least matches that of the Warlock there's also another approach to take.

Instead of selecting the Champion archetype at 3rd level, the archer might want to consider taking the Battle Master archetype. Yes, this won't give him access to the expanded crit range, but it will make him a much more versatile fighter.

I looked over the list of maneuvers, only a handful of them are melee weapon specific. If I've read the rules correctly the Battlemaster will eventually learn a total of 11 maneuvers. There's a ton of useful effects available and what's best is the player can select either Str. or Dex. as the controlling attribute for his DC checks.

Pick moves like Disarming strike, Menacing attack, Precision Attack, Pushing Attack or Trip Attack to go all Green Arrow on your opponents.

Use Commander's Strike, Distracting Strike, and Maneuvering Attack to tactically assist other players to score decisive blows.

Evasive Footwork will help protect you if you have to move away from closing combatants and find a new spot to fire from and Parry will help you out if they get too close after all. You can even throw in Rally to help keep party members alive in a pinch and there's some tactical merits to wanting Goading Attack in your quiver of stunts.

As this version of the archer gains multiple attacks he will be able to use the tactical bonus maneuvers to aid the party and still be able to fire a couple damaging shots in the same turn.