One idea I'm using for my current game is that, other than a handful of (mostly nonstandard) races, most of the standard D&D races are actually half-breeds.

So, faerie + humans result in things like elves, gnomes, halflings, and dwarves. They last a generation or two before reverting to human. Sometimes groups of them appear, last for a while until their children are gone.

Half-elves are, basically, quarter faerie.

Tieflings, well, duh.
(Orcs, maybe something similar)

This is also a convenient handwave for many other demi-humans. Various mystic forces will give rise to small tribes of nonhumans, but over time they vanish.

Quote from: S'mon;785284Is this some Bizarro World thing they teach in US colleges now?

Nope.

Quote from: S'mon;785284Edit: Such kingdoms as existed (Ethiopia, Sudan) were in north-east Africa and part of the Mediterranean trade world. There were no "immensly populous and wealthy kingdoms and empires" south of the Sahara. The Bantu Expansion dates to this era and brought farming & metalworking tribes across most of sub-Saharan Africa, largely replacing the indigenous pygmies and others, but there was nothing like a Eurasian 'kingdom' or 'empire'.

I wouldn't say Europe was "recovering from the collapse of civilization" except maybe in the broader sense of the Carolingian Renaissance that was more or less contemporary to the rise of the Kingdom of Ghana, but interesting things were happening in the Sahelian kingdoms (lots of interesting maps in this Wikipedia link).

Quote from: Daztur;785173Don't think that's a bad thing, there's so many things that eat people in D&D-land that it makes sense for population densities to be low.

Think that settlements should look like what you get historically in areas of constant low-level warfare (like the English/Scotland border historically) but even more so, with every last farmhouse being fortified except in very secure locations.

Exactly. Trying to model D&D after real world demographics only works in a low fantasy setting where monsters are few and far between rather than daily threat.

Possibly closer to the demographics of tribal settlements in Africa or South America where the wilderness is a constant threat.

Quote from: Haffrung;785278See, that makes far more sense in the presumed setting of a game like D&D, with monsters roaming all over the place, than the scattered unwalled villages and yeomen farmer homesteads.

Well part of the problem is that things like this just didnt occur to the module or game writers at the time. Or simply because fort towns did not fit the imagry the writer wanted.

Quote from: S'mon;785284Is this some Bizarro World thing they teach in US colleges now?

I don't know what's taught in US colleges now; my view (subject to the ravages of memory) was formed mainly by books and articles available in the 1970s-80s.

QuoteEdit: Such kingdoms as existed (Ethiopia, Sudan) were in north-east Africa and part of the Mediterranean trade world. There were no "immensly populous and wealthy kingdoms and empires" south of the Sahara. The Bantu Expansion dates to this era and brought farming & metalworking tribes across most of sub-Saharan Africa, largely replacing the indigenous pygmies and others, but there was nothing like a Eurasian 'kingdom' or 'empire'.

Zimbabwe, Mutapa, Kongo, Benin, etc., were nothing like the Franks and such? Really?

Perhaps I was misled by seeming memory of estimates comparing the scope of populations, armies and wealth of sub-Saharan African nations favorably with contemporary Western Europe in some periods. Maybe I confused affairs in other regions with affairs in Western Sudan. Then again, perhaps I retained a more accurate view than what you favor. Or we might simply disagree on what qualifies for such subjective adjectives.

Anyone who really cares is well advised to make an independent inquiry into the evidence.

Quote from: estar;784478Good series of posts. The only downside that while part ii gives sort of hard numbers it does not present any of the original data. But I can see if I can get a hold of the books listed in part i and see what he is not listing.

Gah, coming late to the party ... bad time for me to take a few days off!

Yer darn tootin' I didn't present the original data: I was putting up a couple of blog posts distilling data useful to the would-be fantasy worldbuilder, not writing a hundred-page footnoted dissertation that the likes of Fernand Braudel, Robert Lopez and Josiah Cox Russell did better than I could anyway!

I'm happy, of course, to cite more of the works I used for those genuinely interested in DIY, but that was the result of on-and-off research over more than thirty years.  To those maniacs who want to duplicate (and, hopefully, better) the research, go forth, and my blessings upon you!

In response to the OP: If the density and large number of villages bothers you, there are a couple of (historically accurate) options:

- place your setting in a less productive natural environment, i.e. tundra, moorlands, desert, mountains, dense forest or jungle - the few arable spots will have villages, but the land in between doesn't support permanent human habitation

- have a plague, war, or a high population of monsters render otherwise arable land unusable - deserted, ruined villages make for good settings

- come up with cultural or social reasons why some part of the population doesn't farm and settle, i.e. elves who prefer to live off the land, hunt, and sleep in seasonal settlements

Quote from: Will;785130I'm sure if I spent a month exploring it I'd make great maps, but... I... don't really want to spend a month learning how to use an app.

That's one of the reasons that's always turned me off mapping programs -- that, and the propensity commercial mapping programs have of provoking the following type of statement, which at one point had three similar threads created within a week of one another: "So, the company of my Uber Kewl Mapping Software went out of business, and I just changed to a new computer, and now I can't unlock my softwhare, help!!!"

I've been using a different method: 36 years now and going strong.  I have a giant pad of finely ruled graph paper, 17" x 36" (this particular pad, purchased in 1982, is down to the last few sheets).  I get out pencils, colored pencils and markers, and I make maps.  As needed, I scan and/or laminate them.  Voila -- maps.  No learning curve, no locked software, all in good order.

I just keep upgrading and redoing maps.

Cutting edge MacPaint! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803826/localmap.gif

Cutting edge Fractal Mapper! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803826/potchote.gif

And now Hexographer! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803826/Gedwil.png


And, down the road, whatever else comes out.

(For what it's worth, Hexographer has been pretty easy to use)

Quote from: Daztur;785173Don't think that's a bad thing, there's so many things that eat people in D&D-land that it makes sense for population densities to be low.

Think that settlements should look like what you get historically in areas of constant low-level warfare (like the English/Scotland border historically) but even more so, with every last farmhouse being fortified except in very secure locations.

Quote from: daniel_ream;785271I pull right out of Faux-Medievalia and assume things look like the fortified city-states of Mesopotamia and pre-Columbian Central America.  Everybody lives close enough to the city that they can retreat inside the walls when shit happens.

I'm thinking more of fortified villages rather than cities proper, but the idea is the same. Fields surround the community, which is city like in that it is high density residences. Catal Hayuk is the first thing that comes to my mind:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-l5wtnLUSeDY/Tyvgd2fDZCI/AAAAAAAAEPA/1IZP9NcW3eo/s1600/catalhoyuk_JaumeBoschMart%C3%ADnez.jpg, but the palace complex a Knossos, if the walls were fortified, would also work: http://classconnection.s3.amazonaws.com/446/flashcards/4907446/png/knossos-14456EBFFFE2F24F956.png

In Catal Hayuk's case the outer walls of the town are house walls, so if you need to expand you just add houses on to the outside. In a D&D type setting it might make sense to have these walls be thicker and fortified, which would mean that as the town expands you would have layers of fortified walls going, up, so even if someone breaks through one wall it only gets them into a house; there are still fortified walls all over the place. If a warning is given, run to the town and pull up the ladders. Maybe add crenelations to the top as well so defenders are protected.

Quote from: Ravenswing;785365Gah, coming late to the party ... bad time for me to take a few days off!

Yer darn tootin' I didn't present the original data: I was putting up a couple of blog posts distilling data useful to the would-be fantasy worldbuilder, not writing a hundred-page footnoted dissertation that the likes of Fernand Braudel, Robert Lopez and Josiah Cox Russell did better than I could anyway!

I'm happy, of course, to cite more of the works I used for those genuinely interested in DIY, but that was the result of on-and-off research over more than thirty years.  To those maniacs who want to duplicate (and, hopefully, better) the research, go forth, and my blessings upon you!

Historical is not always gamable. When I noticed S John Ross sources, I went "Mmmm I have Life in a Medieval City". Then I noticed where Life got it numbers. I wondered if the original was translated anywhere and sure enough I found it.

Then I did my own intrepetation of it. But I just didn't expection people take my word for it. I pointed the original source but I also did posted my work (a spreadsheet) so if somebody else wanted to give a go at it more power to them.

That was the essence of my mild criticism. Don't get me wrong your posts are very good. But the at the end of day they are your interpretation of your sources. You didn't save me any time to judge things because I have to go diving into the same sources you did. What would make them great posts is if they had the intermediate steps laid out.

I misspoke when I said it would be nice to have given your sources in detail. What I mean is it would be nice to see the intermediate "worksheet" that listed out all the data you cherry picked, in a good way, from your sources. Then show how you used them to get the numbers you did.

Quote from: Will;785393I just keep upgrading and redoing maps.

Cutting edge MacPaint! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803826/localmap.gif

Cutting edge Fractal Mapper! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803826/potchote.gif

And now Hexographer! https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/803826/Gedwil.png


And, down the road, whatever else comes out.

(For what it's worth, Hexographer has been pretty easy to use)

I have to point out if people like the type of maps I personally draw then Inkscape will do the job. http://www.inkscape.org. I use CorelDRAW but several years ago Inkscape developed to the point where every technique I use in Corel can be done in Inkscape. I keep up with Corel because it what I am used too. But for somebody just starting out use Inkscape.

If I ever want to do nice maps, rather than functional/informative ones, I will probably try Inkscape (I've heard about it from several sources).

For now, functional will do.

Quote from: S'mon;785284Is this some Bizarro World thing they teach in US colleges now?

Edit: Such kingdoms as existed (Ethiopia, Sudan) were in north-east Africa and part of the Mediterranean trade world. There were no "immensly populous and wealthy kingdoms and empires" south of the Sahara. The Bantu Expansion dates to this era and brought farming & metalworking tribes across most of sub-Saharan Africa, largely replacing the indigenous pygmies and others, but there was nothing like a Eurasian 'kingdom' or 'empire'.

Yes. They actually teach this now. Most college professors hate America and want to make absolutely sure we know how awesome every other place in the world is compared to Western civilization.

The first lecture I got in History in college was half about how muslims never took slaves for life and treated them much better than Christians; and the other half was how George W Bush is the devil.

This in about 2010.

If anyone wants to help with my stuff, come to : http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=785424#post785424