Quote from: Natty Bodak;782666Maybe you could start a thread about that, and all the people (you know, all the ones who really want "what people really want") can chime in in agreement.

Obviously I speak about those whom I've had experiences with and talked to, though I assumed, wrongly apparently, that you'd be smart enough to realize that was implied. In the future I'll be sure to spell things out more thoroughly for you.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;782666It may just be that none of them are finding this part of the thread because the post is nominally about TBP build monkeys and how they bum larsdangly out, or it could be because nobody else agrees.  Inquiring minds want to know.

Couldn't tell you, nor do I honestly give a shit.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;782666Nobody asked me, but I'm just gonna put this out there: the disdain I have for people who want to play characters from novels or comic books or movies is larger than a breadbox.

Um...........ok? Does this mean we can't be Facebook friends?

Quote from: Bill;782525That sounds cool. Was he a criminal that reformed himself? Or perhaps falsely accused of being a criminal?

Huge redemption angle in that character, with a hefty dose of Good Is Not Nice.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;782668First, when people think of superheroes, they don't really think of Hawkeye.  Is that really the example you're using for "Hey, you can totally play superheroes in D&D!"?  A guy who really doesn't even have any superpowers?  LOL, OK.

Weird, that means 3 people out of the Avenger's "team" aren't superheros. I guess when people mention movies like Iron Man, they should refrain from using that specific title then.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;782668Secondly, if you're talking about a storm cleric like Storm or Thor, you can't do anything they do in D&D until you hit end game levels, and even then you can't do everything.

Great, I never made the claim that I wanted to do everything a superhero does, just using it as a basis for character creation and emulating some of their features. Further, you'd think if D&D was so terri-bad at re-creating Superheroes people would've gotten the hint years ago that this wasn't the game to do that. And, funny enough, low and behold there's lots of options to do precisely that. There's feats that allow you to throw weapons (like warhammers and shields). There's magical enhancements that make this attack better and have them return to your hand. There's prestige classes and paragon paths that emphasis this. There's spells that recreate super heroic abilities. There's psionics. There's things that emulate "hulking out".

The fact is, over the past 15 years or so D&D has moved away from only classic Tolkien in a myriad of aspects*. It's collecting information, support, and to certain degrees aspects from other pop-culture elements that have become favorites of many people, people that might never have thought to even try something like an RPG before. And the kicker is that D&D hasn't honestly strayed too far from the fantasy roots either. Sure, the rules change but the genre it's been catered to has remained fantasy.

So the question is, while D&D is still a default Fantasy RPG why is it SOO bad that they produce supplemnts that cater to different genres IF those options are clearly marked as such?

*To clarify, I mean that D&D has still incorporated these elements but they're no longer the only elements around for players to use or campaigns for DMs to run. D&D has taken strides to incorpoate a plethora of genres with their games and that it's not only a basic Fantasy RPG but can be much much more.

Quote from: Batman;782704So the question is, while D&D is still a default Fantasy RPG why is it SOO bad that they produce supplemnts that cater to different genres IF those options are clearly marked as such?

It's not 'so bad.' But I do think people should temper expectations of D&D being a universal action move emulator. And they shouldn't expect criticisms of the game not being suitable to 'build' Captain American to be received with anything more than indifference.

Quote from: Haffrung;782707It's not 'so bad.' But I do think people should temper expectations of D&D being a universal action move emulator. And they shouldn't expect criticisms of the game not being suitable to 'build' Captain American to be received with anything more than indifference.

True, building a Captain America is very difficult depending on how strongly you want to be similar to him. The shield thing is pretty easy to get working and at a relatively low level. Getting the Super Soldier aspect going is far more difficult. One can accomplish it later on in the campaign with magical items and Ability Score bumps, but by then you're far into your character's build.

It's easy to see that D&D, especially now with 5E, it's easier to just go with a trope aspect that's prevalent in typical fantasy than it is to go outside that genre. I never really suggested otherwise. The classes specifically speak to the fantasy genre and that's a good thing. If someone can somehow convert or re-flavor the mechanics to fit what they perceive as a Super Hero, I'm OK with that because I'm under no obligation to do the same. But the simple fact is, there ARE people who create threads in attempts to emulate Super Hero characters.

Quote from: Batman;782704Weird, that means 3 people out of the Avenger's "team" aren't superheros. I guess when people mention movies like Iron Man, they should refrain from using that specific title then.

And you do realize that nothing but magic can replicate what Iron Man's suit does in D&D right?  And even then it wouldn't happen until epic levels.  You used Hawkeye as your example.  Good job kid, you picked the least superheroy person of the Avengers to use as your example of why D&D can emulate superhero genre.  That's....pretty dumb.

QuoteGreat, I never made the claim that I wanted to do everything a superhero does, just using it as a basis for character creation and emulating some of their features.

For 99% of the superheroes, and 99% of their powers, D&D can't emulate them until epic levels, and even then they still can't.  It's not just some.  It's almost all.

QuoteFurther, you'd think if D&D was so terri-bad at re-creating Superheroes people would've gotten the hint years ago that this wasn't the game to do that..

Guess what?  Someone did get that hint.  You know who?  TSR.  The same company that put out D&D realized that game wasn't good at recreating superheroes and put out a superhero game themselves in the early 80s.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;782757And you do realize that nothing but magic can replicate what Iron Man's suit does in D&D right?

I'm fine with that. I wouldn't expect to have a suit that's fully capable of what the real Iron Man can do anyways, not at 1st level or 10th or even 15th. What I can do is mimic those things with spells cast by the caster while wearing armor and then just reflavor it otherwise. That'll work for a while or putting things on it like lower level wands (Burning Hands turns into a flame thrower for example).

Or, more simply, make a Warforged Warlock like I already mentioned. And, like I already mentioned, It can "feel" as though I'm playing an Iron Man-esque character from as early as 1st level. By 6th level I can, as a Warlock (v3.5) gain the Fell Flight lesser invocation which gives me fly speed with good maneuverability at-will. Walk Unseen (another lesser invocation) gives me invisibility at-will (hello Predator tech!). Breath of Night (least invocation) gives me a Fog Cloud spell which mimics smoke screen perfectly! All of these are achievable by 6th level and all MIMIC what something Iron Man can do to a lesser extend.

I'm not entirely sure how else to break it down for you. When some people say "Hey, ya'know I think it would be cool to play an Iron Man like character" maybe they're NOT....I repeat NOT talking about having a suit of armor that flys at-will with perfect maneuverability, shoots missiles that devastate or level buildings, and can take on advanced forms of life such as Asgardians at 1st level. You realize that there people who are FINE with taking a 1st level character and only doing some of the things a few times per day that superheroes do at-will.

That's what I'm trying to get at. That using a Super Hero as the basis or concept for a character design and then slowly building upon that is FAR different than wanting to play Superman with all his attributes from the get-go. I'm not sure I can be any more clear about it.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;782757And even then it wouldn't happen until epic levels.

Except where they get features like at-will flying (Fell Flight), repulsor shots (eldritch blast), Infrared (See the Unseen), and a Cloaking Device (Walk Unseen) all by 6th level. And it's all usable at-will with no recharge or daily limitations. And, funny enough, this class (v3.5 Warlock) is considered by many to be a really "meh" class by D&D standards. Go figure.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;782757You used Hawkeye as your example.  Good job kid, you picked the least superheroy person of the Avengers to use as your example of why D&D can emulate superhero genre.  That's....pretty dumb.

And yet he still heavily contributes to their cause. Strange.... I also mentioned Black Widow and Iron Man (who's not a superhero, just has lots of wealth to put into a suit of armor). Then look at Batman, again the Iron Man of DC (in application concept, not personality) and Green Arrow and Red Hood and the Joker and Catwoman and Batgirl and Frank Castle (aka The Punisher) who are ALL non-Super Humans or "super" heroes/villains. And people have tried to imitate them with D&D rules too.

Lets look at the Hulk. Can you emulate him to a degree? I think one could with a some usage of different Monstrous races, Barbarian Rage, and a few key Feats. Will he be 'nigh' indestructible? Probably not but can he "SMASH" stuff and be pretty fearsome in a D&D campaign? Probably can. AGAIN asking to play or attempting to play a Super Hero-like character DOES NOT always mean that someone wants to play that Hero EXACTLY like it's described in the comics or in a movie.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;782757For 99% of the superheroes, and 99% of their powers, D&D can't emulate them until epic levels, and even then they still can't.  It's not just some.  It's almost all.

I feel your completely wrong.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;782757Guess what?  Someone did get that hint.  You know who?  TSR.  The same company that put out D&D realized that game wasn't good at recreating superheroes and put out a superhero game themselves in the early 80s.

Yeah, Super Hero RPGs are all the rage these days............ oh wait.

It's also not really kosher cherry-picking versions of superheroes.

Iconic superheroes have been written at a wide variety of power levels. Hell, Superman used to only be able to hop over buildings. The Hulk at the time of the TV show vs. RAGE GOD. The Flash being a really fast guy vs. a guy who PUNCHED TIME.

And so on.

The Hulk is very easily encapsulated by, say, a Pathfinder Barbarian by 10th level: Brawler, Improved Brawler, lesser hurling, raging leaper, increased damage reduction.

This barbarian has DR 3/--, so is shrugging off damage all the time.


Actually, come to think of it, D&D is in certain respects more like superhero genre than it is fantasy, in how easy it is to heal, ignore damage, and come back from the dead.

The Hulk's purple shorts in dnd would be a Greater Artifact

Heroic fantasy. Not superheroes.

I don't give a crap what 1e D&D gave for fighters as a level title. No Fighter in D&D is throwing down like Thor from the 1980's. Or Superman for that matter.

Without changing the conceits of the game entirely like in Mutants and Masterminds - you won't get the scale of moderate-to-high end superheroes.

Low-end street level? sure. But then I'd also say there are better systems that handle these chores.

Of course - if you're dying to make yet another "better moustrap" - feel free.

Ok I have an incredible stupid question. What is TBP? Is that the company behind rpg.net?

Quote from: jan paparazzi;782907Ok I have an incredible stupid question. What is TBP? Is that the company behind rpg.net?

The Big Purple. Or The Broken People. Either way it represents that forum.

I prefer 'The Banning Place'

Quote from: Will;782914I prefer 'The Banning Place'

HAH!!! nice!

Quote from: Necrozius;782908The Big Purple. Or The Broken People. Either way it represents that forum.

I've had very few negative experiences posting there. Obviously YMMV