Quote from: Sacrosanct;778210it's not 1982 anymore, hate to break it to you.  Players nowadays actually want to know the rules of the game they are playing

And once again, I'm not evaluating the game for anybody else, I'm evaluating it for myself.

Quote from: Old Geezer;778192The core of CHAINMAIL is nine digest-size pages minus options like sieges and the fantasy supplement.

I don't want fluff in my rules.  OD&D not having it is a plus.

And how you can call OD&D "more complex" after however-many pages of character generation rules for 5E is beyond me.  OD&D has a chart for PCs hitting, a chart for monsters hitting, and a saving throw chart, plus the undead chart.  The notion that it's "more complex" is ridiculous.

And I'm talking nothing about "easier to learn from someone picking up the rules," I'm talking "too many rules for me to bother with."  That's my rationale.

I think you might be missing what I'm getting at.  In 5e, there are only a few actual rules, but lots of character/player choices using the same basic rule framework.  That's what is making up that page count, not actual a bunch of unique rules

Why do I feel like I'm listening to an old GURPS argument? It's 3d6 roll under for everything, and someone keeps harping on the cubic volume rules in the Vehicles book.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778210Players nowadays actually want to know the rules of the game they are playing

Newbies who haven't played roleplaying games before want to know the rules of the game?  

I thought the whole purpose of the 5e approach and the Starter Set was that new players wanted to PLAY, and get the rules later.

Jump right in and get to the fun.  Seriously, isn't that the whole point of the Starter Set?  Isn't that why character creation was left out?  

Give you your 1 page sheet, everything you need to know for 5 levels, right, with the GM knowing the rest?  That's the model, relying upon a GM for rules support.

Just so happens it's a model going back to the early days of the hobby.

Now where 5e has the advantage isn't for the new player, but the new GM.  That's what's different.  The older editions could be a beast for a totally new GM who didn't have any wargaming or roleplaying experience.

not mutually exclusive

Quote from: CRKrueger;778220Now where 5e has the advantage isn't for the new player, but the new GM.  That's what's different.  The older editions could be a beast for a totally new GM who didn't have any wargaming or roleplaying experience.

Oh GOD were they. I remember picking up my first copy of AD&D PHB and it was like reading stereo instructions. If it wasn't for table experience (and the fact I can follow stereo instructions...I'm weird.) I wouldn't have gotten anywhere. And it STILL took me close to 5 years? to run the game right. I kept ignoring rules or ruling weirdly on stuff. Even when I got big into 2E I was house ruling stuff I didn't understand.

redoing this because that last statement didn't cover what I wanted to say.

the purpose of the starter set wasn't to cater to people because they never wanted to know the rules.  The purpose was to get people into the game immediately to know how it plays (since chargen isn't the meat of the game, it was not included), and because people want to know the rules, hopefully they'd buy the complete set or at least get the free basic set

I will say this much. The Starter Set is very nice. I'm quite pleased with it easing players into D&D concepts. The last 2 years when reading sets like these. From Pathfinder Basic, Star Wars Edge of the Empire Set, to this one I get a feeling folks in the industry have finally gotten the teaching box set concept down.

Quote from: CRKrueger;778212If Thaco bothers you, do what every D&D player did who Thaco bothered, just put a bar on the charsheet and look it up.

The chart has no math.  What level are you? What AC are you trying to hit?  Lookup the number.  If that's "unintuitive" it's because there's absolutely no intuition required, it's plain as day.

If math is a problem, then shouldn't Roll+Bab be a problem also?

The truth is, one you like, one you don't. One is old, therefore inferior, one is newer therefore superior apparently regardless of any fact.

Or maybe play a version of the game less then 25 years old? Hmm...I think I'll take door #2 Monte. The truth is addition is far more natural to me then subtraction and I'm in the majority. Not that's it's hard but the former is quicker.

@MostlyJoe, and that's the purpose. To get people playing not epeening about some version published before I was born!

How about PLAYING a game?

Or is only new, good?

Quote from: Old Geezer;778236How about PLAYING a game?

Or is only new, good?

That directed at me? I was ready to give L&L a try but my IRL priorities won't allow the time.

Quote from: Old Geezer;778236How about PLAYING a game?

Or is only new, good?

Is the implication, that simply because it's new it's bad?

I have already found problems with 5e since I picked up the PHB (I'll start a thread on that later), but it's nothing that isn't any more difficult than using Thac0 (and not liking it) or using Vancian casting (and not liking it) or any other tried and true subsystem from 1e forward.

The game is there to be played. It can be scaled down or up as I see fit fairly painlessly. Is it going to be my favorite D&D edition? Too early to tell. But right now it's running neck and neck with 2e, and still trailing behind FC but most people here don't give a shit about FC, so meh.

Right now my impressions are: first I was extremely skeptical. Now, I'm running my fourth weekly session, and my players are having fun, I'm having fun, the system is pretty breezy to run, I'm making a lot of tweaks as I go, nothing weird, and now I'm moderately happy. Am I thrilled? I wouldn't go that far. But this is the first edition Ive played since 2e that I feel is pretty solid and flexible for the campaigns I run, with lots of potential for more.

If this thread is comparing 5e to Basic D&D, then we may as we'll be comparing it to Yahtzee. I could no more run the games I want to run with Basic to my satisfaction, than I could using Monopoly. Could I go back to 1e/2e? Sure. Do think those systems are demonstrably better? Not really. But then the degree of "better" is still in the deciding, and right now, to my surprise, 5e is holding up.

Edit: but I do see some problems which I'll address tomorrow in another thread. Hopefully the DMG will fix them

I have a shortlist myself but I'm interested to see if we have similar issues so I await your critique tomorrow.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;778210A lot of people look at a book first

Whoosh! go the goal posts!

We were talking about teaching people to play, not the ways in which people may learn to play.

Quote from: Mostlyjoe;778190To be fair that is common these days. Most game books teach the system. Core concepts. OD&D and AD&D were written from a different style of books.

First, roleplaying games have been around for four decades now - they are part of the zeitgeist, even for people who haven't played them before.

Second, everyone who was a child knows how to fucking play pretend.

Now, all of this is a nice attempt at misdirection, but getting back to the point at which I joined this conversation, the assumption that unified mechanics are inherently easier to learn doesn't hold up as a truism, as evidenced by gamers with experience with both who reject unified systems for their complexity. And that's without getting into the fact that, for most of its history, the World's Most Popular Roleplaying Game did not have unified mechanics.

So call it your preference if you like, but don't presume to speak for 'most gamers.'

Quote from: tenbones;778244Is the implication, that simply because it's new it's bad?

No.  But I have a version of D&D that I'm entirely happy with.  The burden of proof is on a newer edition to prove to me that it will make me happier than the one I have, and 5E has not.

I thought this was a thread about opinions about 5e.  I have mine, other people have theirs.

Opinions are like assholes.  Everybody's got one, and they're all full of shit except your own.