[Legends & Lore] Mearls on feats

Will · July 21, 2014, 01:14:00 PM

Optimizers being a problem depends highly on the system. More numbery/complex systems are way more vulnerable, because it's really likely there are combinations the devs didn't notice/plan for.

Then you have Risus, say, where optimizing is kind of silly.

Sacrosanct · July 21, 2014, 01:15:41 PM

there have always been optimizers (we called them munchkins back in the day), and there always will. It's only a problem if your gaming table makes it a problem. If they aren't happy not being able to play their "uber build" at your table? You probably don't want them playing with you anyway. No loss.

Just Another Snake Cult · July 21, 2014, 04:51:02 PM

I was really excited about the Basic download... but this and the grotesque HP inflation seen in the Starter Set (The typical ogre has 59 HP? The typical goblin 7?) are really starting to turn me back towards Labyrinth Lord.

LibraryLass · July 21, 2014, 04:53:35 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;771048I was really excited about the Basic download... but this and the grotesque HP inflation seen in the Starter Set (The typical ogre has 59 HP? The typical goblin 7?) are really starting to turn me back towards Labyrinth Lord.

In fairness, the monsters generally had lower HP during the playtest and were kind of... wet tissue paper.

Marleycat · July 21, 2014, 05:55:59 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;771048I was really excited about the Basic download... but this and the grotesque HP inflation seen in the Starter Set (The typical ogre has 59 HP? The typical goblin 7?) are really starting to turn me back towards Labyrinth Lord.

You have to look at the overall context and the fact that the baseline will be adjustable. Though if I were to play OSR pure the shortlist would be DCC, ACKS or LL.

cranebump · July 21, 2014, 05:58:11 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;771048I was really excited about the Basic download... but this and the grotesque HP inflation seen in the Starter Set (The typical ogre has 59 HP? The typical goblin 7?) are really starting to turn me back towards Labyrinth Lord.

You and me both, my friend. I like 5E but it's already too heavy for me.

Sacrosanct · July 21, 2014, 06:02:55 PM

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;771048I was really excited about the Basic download... but this and the grotesque HP inflation seen in the Starter Set (The typical ogre has 59 HP? The typical goblin 7?) are really starting to turn me back towards Labyrinth Lord.

Quote from: cranebump;771065You and me both, my friend. I like 5E but it's already too heavy for me.

I guess this is where, as a fan of 5e, I chime in and jump down your throats about how you're doing it wrong. So I've been told that happens anytime anyone says anything not praising of the game.

But I'm afraid all I got is, "Eh, to each their own. Sorry it's not for you, but I hope you are having fun playing your preferred games. Game on dudes, game on."

Larsdangly · July 21, 2014, 06:37:07 PM

I too noticed the HP inflation right away but am not sure it means what some people seem to think it means. A goblin may have 7 hp on average, but typical weapon damages are up proportionately: damage of 8-9 is so common as to be almost expected. The real question is how many attack rolls are generally required, on average, to kill or incapacitate a common foe. If the answer is more than 5, you have a slow, boring combat system. I don't think 5E breaks that rule of thumb. Comments from those who have played a few hours?

Will · July 21, 2014, 06:55:57 PM

Well, I've been stuck on the E6 idea for 3e D&D, because I hate the inflation of the last two editions.

Fuck, if it were me, HP would be static.

Raven · July 21, 2014, 06:58:57 PM

Quote from: Marleycat;771064You have to look at the overall context and the fact that the baseline will be adjustable. Though if I were to play OSR pure the shortlist would be DCC, ACKS or LL.

I keep seeing people wanting to turn 5e into B/X or AD&D and I've even caught myself thinking about various ways to nudge it in those directions but in the end I have to remind myself that I already own those games, and derivatives like ACKS, that fully support the old school style of play that I enjoy. So do I really want 5e to do the same thing as those games, or do I want to play 5e for a different experience?

Different feels, you know? Like if ACKS = Platoon, then 5e = Star Wars. That's the way I see it anyway.

And of course I don't want to give the impression that hacking 5e is a bad thing, people should do what they want with it and they will. But for me it seems more effort than it's worth.

Blacky the Blackball · July 21, 2014, 07:05:13 PM

I've run a campaign using the playtest rules that's just hit fourth level.

The fights aren't taking too long at all. I think the thing with the extra hit points is that it's pretty damn well balanced with the ease of attacks.

So instead of taking three rounds to roll well enough to hit that goblin but then killing it in one hit because it only had 3hp, you now hit it twice in three rounds and that's enough to kill it with it's 7hp.

Combat's not really any slower overall, and it feels better to the players because they can see progress within the fight - particularly at lower level where in previous versions they'd be missing most rounds.

Marleycat · July 21, 2014, 07:05:37 PM

Quote from: Raven;771076I keep seeing people wanting to turn 5e into B/X or AD&D and I've even caught myself thinking about various ways to nudge it in those directions but in the end I have to remind myself that I already own those games, and derivatives like ACKS, that fully support the old school style of play that I enjoy. So do I really want 5e to do the same thing as those games, or do I want to play 5e for a different experience?

Different feels, you know? Like if ACKS = Platoon, then 5e = Star Wars. That's the way I see it anyway.

And of course I don't want to give the impression that hacking 5e is a bad thing, people should do what they want with it and they will. But for me it seems more effort than it's worth.

That's fair given I'll be looking to hack elements I like about the 3 games I mentioned given I like 5e's baseline except for healing. I'm loving the fact that my character is effective yet not optimized in Opa's Pbp game.

cranebump · July 21, 2014, 07:31:02 PM

Quote from: Sacrosanct;771066I guess this is where, as a fan of 5e, I chime in and jump down your throats about how you're doing it wrong. So I've been told that happens anytime anyone says anything not praising of the game.

But I'm afraid all I got is, "Eh, to each their own. Sorry it's not for you, but I hope you are having fun playing your preferred games. Game on dudes, game on."

Don't get me wrong--been playtesting it over a year now. But the more I think about it, the more I prefer something a bit smaller hp wise and such. I'm a big b/x fan, too, so that may be where I go eventually.

Omega · July 21, 2014, 11:23:47 PM

Quote from: Panjumanju;770888As someone who does not particularly like feats, but would like to see them used at the table by other people, I'm concerned that they are markedly more powerful than any +2 to a Statistic, discouraging any other option.

//Panjumanju

Normally you are only going to get a handfull of them at the sacrifice of stat points. One player will weigh it differently than the next. There might be situations where the player will have to weigh bumping a stat out of the negative, or nabbing a kewl power.

Marleycat · July 21, 2014, 11:28:45 PM

Quote from: Omega;771144Normally you are only going to get a handfull of them at the sacrifice of stat points. One player will weigh it differently than the next. There might be situations where the player will have to weigh bumping a stat out of the negative, or nabbing a kewl power.

For example...give my character in Opa's game to up her STR or get Spell Sniper? Screw the ability score. Imagine Flame Bolt and Ray of Frost at double distance for a pure wizard? Now imagine at roll to hit cantrip with a save like Mearls said are coming with Potent Cantrip for your typical Evoker.

It could get whacked when you run the real blasters (Sorcerers and some Warlocks).