Quote from: Bill;762072Gotta love even the concept of being careful/using strategy and tactics somehow being 'cheating'

Well, it is in the sense of not openly walking into a straight fight. But since when are adventurers supposed to fight honorably in the first place?

And now for the wizard pregen:

I should note that the longsword and bow proficiencies are due to being an elf.  The mage doesn't normally get them.  Also, does it make me a bad person to see a new edition of D&D have a magic user with shitty AC and low enough hp that most attacks could kill him in one hit again?  

Quote from: LibraryLass;762083Well, it is in the sense of not openly walking into a straight fight. But since when are adventurers supposed to fight honorably in the first place?

Maybe a few of the most eccentric Paladins?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;762087I should note that the longsword and bow proficiencies are due to being an elf.  The mage doesn't normally get them.  Also, does it make me a bad person to see a new edition of D&D have a magic user with shitty AC and low enough hp that most attacks could kill him in one hit again?  

Guess that wizard will not leap in front of the ogres. The fighter still has a job to do.

Quote from: Bill;762105Guess that wizard will not leap in front of the ogres. The fighter still has a job to do.

No, because there will be some lucky nitwit out there who will translate "Elf" into "Has moves like Legolas from the LotR movies" and have just enough good dice rolls to survive the encounter.

Quote from: Haffrung;761909"Wasn't there not supposed to be a dependence on magic items..."

Gauntlets of Ogre Power have apparently broken 5E.

To be fair to the TBP, they're getting stuck on some of the most baffling bullshit to come out of WotC's discussion of 5E: WotC has repeatedly claimed that characters with magic items have no impact on the balance of the game.

This, of course, makes no sense. It violates what I refer to as the Iron Man Principle. As long as:

(A) There are magic items which are useful (particularly in combat); and
(B) The PCs can have those items; and
(C) The designers care about game balance at all; then
(D) There will need to be guidelines for how many items the PCs should have.

Because there is a difference between what Tony Stark can do and what Iron Man can do.

Now, there are ways you can weaken (D) and put more of the onus of finding the balance for a particular group back on the players. But even if that's true, the claim that magic items can make you strictly better but somehow having them won't impact the power balance between characters is... bizarre.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;762125To be fair to the TBP, they're getting stuck on some of the most baffling bullshit to come out of WotC's discussion of 5E: WotC has repeatedly claimed that characters with magic items have no impact on the balance of the game.

This, of course, makes no sense. It violates what I refer to as the Iron Man Principle. As long as:

(A) There are magic items which are useful (particularly in combat); and
(B) The PCs can have those items; and
(C) The designers care about game balance at all; then
(D) There will need to be guidelines for how many items the PCs should have.

Because there is a difference between what Tony Stark can do and what Iron Man can do.

Now, there are ways you can weaken (D) and put more of the onus of finding the balance for a particular group back on the players. But even if that's true, the claim that magic items can make you strictly better but somehow having them won't impact the power balance between characters is... bizarre.

That's all fair enough. But the theorywanks on TBP then claimed that players will now make Str a dump stat for all fighters, because the know they'll be able to pick up GoOP. It's the blase assumption that:

A) Many players partake in char op to the degree that they build magic items right into the character, and

B) Players can have any magic item in the book they want

...that left me astonished. WotC simply isn't supporting that approach to the game. Presumably, they've ceded the hardcore char op field to Pathfinder. And the critics on TBP must realize that. But they've never been the sort to let common sense and what really happens at the table have any influence on their theorycrafting.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;762125WotC has repeatedly claimed that characters with magic items have no impact on the balance of the game.

I don't believe this is quite right. They've said that they aren't balancing magic items in the rules, not that magic items don't need balancing. They've essentially left this duty in the DM's wheelhouse, as a playstyle choice. That's my understanding of their statements.

Quote from: kurtomatic;762137I don't believe this is quite right. They've said that they aren't balancing magic items in the rules, not that magic items don't need balancing. They've essentially left this duty in the DM's wheelhouse, as a playstyle choice. That's my understanding of their statements.

Mine as well.  I.e., certainly a +2 weapon will have an impact to math balance, but the pcs being balanced against each other, that won't be a factor.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;762087I should note that the longsword and bow proficiencies are due to being an elf.  The mage doesn't normally get them.  Also, does it make me a bad person to see a new edition of D&D have a magic user with shitty AC and low enough hp that most attacks could kill him in one hit again?  

Max HP 6+2.

Ogre would connect on a 7 or better. ow. Goblins tough would be only a 11 or 10 or better.

Stay out of bashing range of the ogre.

Quote from: Omega;762151Max HP 6+2.

Ogre would connect on a 7 or better. ow. Goblins tough would be only a 11 or 10 or better.

Stay out of bashing range of the ogre.

Yeah, and it should be noted that mage has a +2 Con bonus.  I imagine most mages wouldn't.  So most level 1 mages would have 6hp.

Stay out of combat indeed.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;762042LOL @ cheating!

A first level party can try and fight whatever they want. 5E characters look easy enough to make up fairly fast. Let the newbs grind through a couple characters, so what? I consider that almost like a D&D rite of passage. If they can't accept that then they have no business playing a game.

This I can get behind. I mean it's set up to get to 3rd level in 2:sessions and level 5 as fast as 6 sessions total. And level 5:is the first time the game shifts from zero to hero as the baseline in a noticeable sense.

Quote from: kurtomatic;762137I don't believe this is quite right. They've said that they aren't balancing magic items in the rules, not that magic items don't need balancing. They've essentially left this duty in the DM's wheelhouse, as a playstyle choice. That's my understanding of their statements.

Correct.

Quote from: kurtomatic;762137I don't believe this is quite right. They've said that they aren't balancing magic items in the rules, not that magic items don't need balancing. They've essentially left this duty in the DM's wheelhouse, as a playstyle choice. That's my understanding of their statements.

Correct.