Quote from: Warthur;761948Oh hey, TBP finally fixed their search function. That took, what, five years at least?

What? They turned the search back on? When? :eek:

(Last time I tried to use it the statement was that it was disabled as that google thing would work the same... really it will!)

There's a thread on rpg.net about the monster page...endless bitching about how powerful the ogre is compared to a low-level party. Well, maybe you're not supposed to fucking fight it? Someone said the party might "cheat", setup an ambush, use oil, etc...so the response to that is, "Yeah, but this is the Starter Set. For newbies who are not necessarily used to clever strategy." Seriously, what in the fuck? If the newbies have a TPK, they might actually start using their brains instead of just rolling dice.

These morons treat D&D like an exercise in mathematically analysis, NOT a roleplaying game.

Quote from: Haffrung;761909"Wasn't there not supposed to be a dependence on magic items..."

Gauntlets of Ogre Power have apparently broken 5E.

Heh. I browsed over there for the first time in months and landed on that thread (I noticed that Marlycat was making a futile effort to introduce reason into the conversation).

Yes, it's true. If a magic item that doesn't fit in with your particular campaign and/or character concept is listed anywhere in any book it breaks the game!!! "Don't have that item show up" is, for some unguessable reason, not an option.

Quote from: Dimitrios;761986"Don't have that item show up" is, for some unguessable reason, not an option.

As is, apparently, "make up your own". If it's not in the book, doesn't exist! I PAY GOOD MONEY FOR THIS GAME, DO THE CREATIVE PART SO I CAN ROLL DICE!

Quote from: Larsdangly;761705I suppose. I don't think about critters in D&D that way. I 'use' an ogre to be the thing that lives in an ogre's cave, and you can walk into that cave or not as you wish, regardless of your level or the size of your gang/party.

That's what I do, too, in defiance of the Final Fantasy complex: "It's funny, the farther away I get from my home village, the more powerful the monsters are!"

When I'm designing an adventure there has to be a reason for the Ogre cave to be there - an eco-system to support such an Ogre, and a history with the local population of whatever-they-are. It could be more powerful or less powerful than the party, I don't care, that's for the PCs to suss out.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Haffrung;761909"Wasn't there not supposed to be a dependence on magic items..."

Gauntlets of Ogre Power have apparently broken 5E.

That's such a bullshit argument anyway.  What it's not fair that a fighter had to "spend' his character creation array on his strength when the mage can cheat and just get the gauntlets later anyway?

OK, guess what mage.  You want those?  You get them.  But that means you have to fight up front with the fighters to actually get the benefit of them (STR melee attacks).  Let me know how that works out for you.

Quote from: Brad;761980There's a thread on rpg.net about the monster page...endless bitching about how powerful the ogre is compared to a low-level party. Well, maybe you're not supposed to fucking fight it? Someone said the party might "cheat", setup an ambush, use oil, etc...so the response to that is, "Yeah, but this is the Starter Set. For newbies who are not necessarily used to clever strategy." Seriously, what in the fuck? If the newbies have a TPK, they might actually start using their brains instead of just rolling dice.

These morons treat D&D like an exercise in mathematically analysis, NOT a roleplaying game.

Wait, what?  This actually makes me angry, because the first time my 10 year old played with his friends, those kids were just as if not more creative than grizzled rpg veterans.  Cheating?  Whatever.  All you need is an imagination, and that's not dictated by how much experience one has playing an RPG.

And no shit a low level party shouldn't be fighting an ogre.  Holy....

You get the sense that a large fraction of the folks there don't play D&D in any form, and aren't really that into RPG's generally. But they love to snipe and pick about bullshit.

I didn't watch the unboxing, but someone posted a snippet from Mike Mearls that sounds like they've got the right idea:

"Now, I'm going to surmise that there is quite some overlap in mentality from the MMO to some PnP RPG players. We're all nerds, after all, and the propensity to min/max started before the ability to do so in video games was a thing. What the takeaway here is that some people will play in a way that they dislike in order to pull out a small advantage. In other words, even if someone absolutely hates the idea of multiple short rests in a row, they may give up their preferred playstyle entirely and play a session that they hate because they see a mechanical advantage in doing so."

Followed by a statement that with 5e they made a design decision that they are "not going to try and make rules that will stop people who wanted to be bored from, like, doing boring things."

In other words, it's not the designer's job to force or trick you into having fun if you're determined not to.

Word.

Quote from: Dimitrios;762009I didn't watch the unboxing, but someone posted a snippet from Mike Mearls that sounds like they've got the right idea:

"Now, I'm going to surmise that there is quite some overlap in mentality from the MMO to some PnP RPG players. We're all nerds, after all, and the propensity to min/max started before the ability to do so in video games was a thing. What the takeaway here is that some people will play in a way that they dislike in order to pull out a small advantage. In other words, even if someone absolutely hates the idea of multiple short rests in a row, they may give up their preferred playstyle entirely and play a session that they hate because they see a mechanical advantage in doing so."

Followed by a statement that with 5e they made a design decision that they are "not going to try and make rules that will stop people who wanted to be bored from, like, doing boring things."

In other words, it's not the designer's job to force or trick you into having fun if you're determined not to.

Word.

That aligns with what he said a while ago.  "Rules will not fix broken players."  Say what you will about Mike (lord knows I think some of the things he's said in the past were...off), but those two statements I can get behind.

Quote from: Brad;761980Someone said the party might "cheat", setup an ambush, use oil, etc...so the response to that is, "Yeah, but this is the Starter Set. For newbies who are not necessarily used to clever strategy." Seriously, what in the fuck? If the newbies have a TPK, they might actually start using their brains instead of just rolling dice.

Further proof these clods don't actually play RPGs. Because in my experience, new players are actually more likely to try out of the box, clever stuff like luring ogres into pits doused with oil. Unless  the newbies you play with are as unimaginative as theorywanks on RPGnet.

Quote from: Brad;761980These morons treat D&D like an exercise in mathematically analysis, NOT a roleplaying game.

Take three days off for implying that an RPG game is something that happens at a table with real people and not a system document best enjoyed by deconstructing down to its mathematical foundations.

Quote from: Dimitrios;761986Yes, it's true. If a magic item that doesn't fit in with your particular campaign and/or character concept is listed anywhere in any book it breaks the game!!! "Don't have that item show up" is, for some unguessable reason, not an option.

But I shouldn't have to use any imagination, discretion, of judgement to play a roleplaying game!

Quote from: Larsdangly;762006You get the sense that a large fraction of the folks there don't play D&D in any form, and aren't really that into RPG's generally. But they love to snipe and pick about bullshit.

Bingo. But don't ever even imply that over on the TBP - it's the herd of elephants in the room.

Quote from: Dimitrios;762009Followed by a statement that with 5e they made a design decision that they are "not going to try and make rules that will stop people who wanted to be bored from, like, doing boring things."

In other words, it's not the designer's job to force or trick you into having fun if you're determined not to.

Word.

The thing that really must piss off these joyless theorycrafters - fuel their blazing unhappiness - is the prospect that what they think doesn't matter. That there's no correlation between what they want in games and what 95 per cent or roleplayers want. But I guess they have the echo-chamber of RPGnet, where they can pretend they're part of an important movement.

Quote from: Dimitrios;762009In other words, it's not the designer's job to force or trick you into having fun if you're determined not to.

Word.

Didn't know that Mearls was such a fan of Melan's Tyranny of Fun.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;762005Wait, what?  This actually makes me angry, because the first time my 10 year old played with his friends, those kids were just as if not more creative than grizzled rpg veterans.  Cheating?  Whatever.  All you need is an imagination, and that's not dictated by how much experience one has playing an RPG.

And no shit a low level party shouldn't be fighting an ogre.  Holy....

LOL @ cheating!

A first level party can try and fight whatever they want. 5E characters look easy enough to make up fairly fast. Let the newbs grind through a couple characters, so what? I consider that almost like a D&D rite of passage. If they can't accept that then they have no business playing a game.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;762042LOL @ cheating!

A first level party can try and fight whatever they want. 5E characters look easy enough to make up fairly fast. Let the newbs grind through a couple characters, so what? I consider that almost like a D&D rite of passage. If they can't accept that then they have no business playing a game.

This is 100% correct.  Level 1-3 is pretty fast.  Once again, my sig seems appropriate in this context.


I guess "Joe having more of an imagination than me" equals cheating nowadays?  SMH

Gotta love even the concept of being careful/using strategy and tactics somehow being 'cheating'

Quote from: Bill;762072Gotta love even the concept of being careful/using strategy and tactics somehow being 'cheating'

These days if you do something that isn't a menu option from your sheet some players will look at you like you just did a magic trick.