The only thing I notice that has me wondering a bit are the really high hit point totals. E.g., an ogre has 2.5x as many HP as in pre-3E editions. Damage is a bit higher as well, but I think the ratio of HP/typical damage is definitely way up there. So, let me degenerate into a sort of mild, un-emotional nerd rage for a moment:

Any game with D&D style damage and injury gets boring when it takes forever to ablate foes down to 0. In my experience, the problem comes when the combination of hit chance, damage and HP undergoes 'mean reversion' — i.e., so many rolls are needed to resolve each fight that the final outcome is statistically pre-ordained. Like, if you are flipping coins until you see 100 heads, you can pretty much bet anything you like that it is going to take ~200 flips.

E.g., if, on average, it takes 7 hits to kill something and you hit one in three rolls, then you have to make 20+ attacks to defeat something, meaning you are in the range of numbers of rolls where the average outcome nearly always happens. So, you start your fight pretty much knowing what will happen and how long it will take and wishing the sweet release of death would set you free so you don't have to wait through it all.

Examples of games where this occurs include the Decipher Lord of the Rings (at least, played RAW) and, the few times I played it, 4E D&D. In both cases I thought I was going to really dig the game based on a first reading and flip through, and was psyched to play once i organized a group, but then when we sat at the table it was a fucking drag. You could kind of see everyone at the table deflate as they realized they couldn't help but defeat the goblin or whatever, and that it would inevitably take 37 rounds to accomplish. Blech.

So, I hope that isn't what I'm seeing in those jacked up hit points!

Numbers bloat is something that really turned me off of 3e and 4e.  Those HP totals raise my eyebrows a bit.  However, I have to admit that many times during the playtest a tough opponent (like an ogre) would go down faster than a dime hooker on Burnside, which was anti-climatic.  So maybe it's not really an issue.

From my limited experience with the playtest, it's easier to hit monsters in 5E than in pre-3E D&D, and PCs do more damage. So instead of, say, hitting an ogre on 40 per cent of attacks and doing an average of 4 damage each attack, you hit on 60 per cent and do an average of 6 damage (I pulled those numbers out of my ass). So I don't think combats take any longer. They may even be faster.

Quote from: Larsdangly;761611So, I hope that isn't what I'm seeing in those jacked up hit points!

PCs are outputting a bit more damage on average.

But yeah, the HP seems a little up there on both sides. But not excessively so. Just was odd that something touted as playing faster and they jacked up most creatures and PCs toughness.

Combats still clicked along pretty fast though since there is less of the usual  maneuvering and jockying to trigger some ability chain.

I was constantly surprised by the speed of combat in the Playtest. You would set up an attack by 6 griffons, thinking that would kill an hour or more, and it would all be over in 15 min.

That said, you would not want to bump into more than one ogre at level 2!

Quote from: jadrax;761623I was constantly surprised by the speed of combat in the Playtest. You would set up an attack by 6 griffons, thinking that would kill an hour or more, and it would all be over in 15 min.

That said, you would not want to bump into more than one ogre at level 2!

I'm wondering if the CR is based on a standard challenge for a party of 4-5 PCs at that level, since we know they have 1/2 CRs as well.  So that CR2 Ogre is designed to be a challenge for 4-5 level 2 PCs.  And I can see that.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;761616Numbers bloat is something that really turned me off of 3e and 4e.  Those HP totals raise my eyebrows a bit.  However, I have to admit that many times during the playtest a tough opponent (like an ogre) would go down faster than a dime hooker on Burnside, which was anti-climatic.  So maybe it's not really an issue.

That's exactly why they jacked up the hitpoints they even said they hadn't refined the monster math yet. I suppose if you see combat dragging you could adjust it back a bit.

Quote from: Haffrung;761619From my limited experience with the playtest, it's easier to hit monsters in 5E than in pre-3E D&D, and PCs do more damage. So instead of, say, hitting an ogre on 40 per cent of attacks and doing an average of 4 damage each attack, you hit on 60 per cent and do an average of 6 damage (I pulled those numbers out of my ass). So I don't think combats take any longer. They may even be faster.

It was indeed.

At level 3 during playtest we all had mostly a +3 or so bonus from stat to hit, on top of the +2 for level. 25% better chance of hitting for me.

Against the Ogre in the Caves of Chaos playtest with AC 11 that meant I hit on a 6 or better. And in the playteast the Ogre had 35 HP. (5d10+5)

Ogre went down in 3 rounds to a group composed of 2 fighters, 1 thief, and 1 mage (me). It would have ended on round 2 if I hadnt missed on the first round. (rolled a 4!) We were level 3 and blundered into the Ogre cave. Round 3 clobbered me with the greatclub for 14 of my 18 HP. ow!

Quote from: Sacrosanct;761633I'm wondering if the CR is based on a standard challenge for a party of 4-5 PCs at that level, since we know they have 1/2 CRs as well.  So that CR2 Ogre is designed to be a challenge for 4-5 level 2 PCs.  And I can see that.

Yes, Rodney tweeted that CR is level. I don't know why they switched terms.

Quote from: Omega;761638It was indeed.

At level 3 during playtest we all had mostly a +3 or so bonus from stat to hit, on top of the +2 for level. 25% better chance of hitting for me.

Against the Ogre in the Caves of Chaos playtest with AC 11 that meant I hit on a 6 or better. And in the playteast the Ogre had 35 HP. (5d10+5)

Ogre went down in 3 rounds to a group composed of 2 fighters, 1 thief, and 1 mage (me). It would have ended on round 2 if I hadnt missed on the first round. (rolled a 4!) We were level 3 and blundered into the Ogre cave. Round 3 clobbered me with the greatclub for 14 of my 18 HP. ow!

My 2nd level halfling fighter snuck around the corner to peer into that cave and took a club to the face, sending me into death spiral right off the bat.  Ogre clubs hurt

Cool. I didn't expect to loose any sleep over this regardless, but it sounds like my worries are unfounded. Perhaps they simply made the Ogre tougher than I'm used to so it is more like a little giant and less like a big orc.

Quote from: Larsdangly;761672Cool. I didn't expect to loose any sleep over this regardless, but it sounds like my worries are unfounded. Perhaps they simply made the Ogre tougher than I'm used to so it is more like a little giant and less like a big orc.

Well it is supposed to be a challenge for a fully rested 4-5 person 2nd level party. I would wager the baseline is actually 5 given there are 5 pregens in the starter set. Now the really cool thing is that you could use them in a group of 5-6 or whatever (need to see the MM for better than a guess) later on down the line against higher level party's and it won't be any easy task and may be outright deadly.

I suppose. I don't think about critters in D&D that way. I 'use' an ogre to be the thing that lives in an ogre's cave, and you can walk into that cave or not as you wish, regardless of your level or the size of your gang/party.

Quote from: Larsdangly;761705I suppose. I don't think about critters in D&D that way. I 'use' an ogre to be the thing that lives in an ogre's cave, and you can walk into that cave or not as you wish, regardless of your level or the size of your gang/party.

I have no issue with that. I was just saying they're pretty tough monsters.

Those monsters really make me think they're applying the bounded accuracy theme to CRs as well.  I.e., the entire design seems to be around a lot less numbers escalation than previous editions.  So a CR 10 creature in Next would be the equivalent of a CR 20 creature in 3e.