Quote from: Haffrung;759851Basically, only adventurers have and gain levels. For the most parts, adventurers are weird, obsessive outcasts. Ergo, people with levels don't play a big part in the mundane management of cities and kingdoms.

That an approach that work. I don't personally do that, I always had leveled individuals inhabiting my settlements. What does happen is that incidence of powerful or supernatural classes is very low. The main exception are clerics even remote villages usually has a 3rd level cleric (priest) in residence. But even with clerics it is a heirarchy with 9th level high priest about as common as bishops in western europe. Which means there are more than just a handful but they are not exactly common either.

Anyway either approach will work for a campaign. The key is being aware of your assumption so you can be consistent.

Quote from: Gib;759868You know it's funny. I have given a ton of shit to people here because they are still pissed off about 4e, but, man, no game keeps people mad longer than 1e.
That's  a hell of a thing.

Yeah, it's weird.  Probably due to people of a certain age being an adolescent or teenager when they had problems with their friends or acquaintances while playing the game and tied it to the game in some formative way.

Quote from: CRKrueger;759859Where I draw the line is people saying that "1e was just the same thing" when they either didn't play 1e at all, or they played 2e with half the rules and are commenting on 1e.  That's bullshit.

2e, 3e, 3.5e made successive changes to the Magic-User that fundamentally altered the structure of the class from the 1e version.  The 1e version of the class that I actually played for years and GM'd for longer is not the fake version people have floating in their head.

I played with AD&D 1e for a number of years and use D&D 3e a lot over the years although it was never my primary game. I think the 3e core book Wizard is comparable to the 1e Magic User. Are their differences? Sure, the 1e Wizards has more "boom" spells. Spells that have outsize effect compared to their spell level. Like 1e Sleep. 1e Magic User have slightly less utility than their 3e Wizards counterparts due to 3e spell list.

Like all the classes in the 3e core book, the main advantage a 3e Wizard has is flexibility. The ability to customize their character.

Another difference is that a high level 3e Wizards powers relies on a mix of mechanics and items.  While 1e Wizards get some nice high level spells the focus on getting that Staff of the Archmagi and other kewl items to make the really big bangs as a Wizard. The end result is the same in both game a grossly overpowered character. Just how you get there differs.

Now if you start throwing in all the 3e expansion books well 1e has third party books and Dragon articles that break shit left and right. Note the same things as the 3e era of splatbooks but the result is the same.

When people start arguing over shit between OD&D to 3e and now 5e is all about inches. 4e is the exception because it a completely different game with its own issues. Where editions matter is in personal preferences. Many love the fact that high level characters get most of their power from magic items not feats, the right multi-classing setup. Many love how 3e handles high level customization.

Quote from: CRKrueger;759859In any case, the Rule 0 fallacy does not apply to any game, and I've commented many times on the Denner's ability to find true holes in math, which is important in determining if a class can indeed do what the numbers say it is supposed to do.

I applaud you for being consistent, man. I mean that sincerely. I was mostly poking at ExploderWizard.

I just think that if people are going to argue about games, they should be consistent about how they argue for games they like and against games they hate.

In my OD&D, low level Clerics and Wizards are pretty common. Why? If you have an average WIS, you can pledge your soul to a god and they make you a cleric. If you make it to 2nd level, the god even gives you spells. If you have an average INT and if you are literate, you can read thick books for couple years and learn how to cast magical spells.

I'm cool with that...for my D&D games. I have different ideas on how common spellcasters are in Warhammer, etc.

Quote from: GnomeWorks;759741Right. I forgot that you folk don't like the idea of investigating the mechanics of the games you play with any degree of mathematical rigor, and like to just pretend that how the rules function should have no impact on what players do at all or what makes sense in-setting.

I actually find it quite interesting. Thanks for posting about it.

Quote from: RPGPundit;759746but I'm a horrible person for implying that there is an OSR Taliban.

That's why you're horrible???

Quote from: GnomeWorks;759764Quote me, you fucker. Quote where I said that, because I am sick of this strawman horseshit.

What forum doesn't reek of that particular odor?

Quote from: Marleycat;759769My point is the whole thing is pointless because who cares about some 13th wizard not related to the previous conversation?

I care Marleycat. I care about that poor 13th level wizard as a person!

Quote from: jibbajibba;759797I am actually surprised by a lot of old 1e material about how high level general everyday folks seems to be to be honest.

Its pretty funny when you roll up high level NPCs deep in the dungeons. You never meet those guys coming or going, just apparently hanging out at that level.

But hey, its one of those D&D idiosyncrasies that we either run with, or run from.

Quote from: RPGPundit;759854I've explicitly stated, several times, that not everyone who has a problem with 5e or is distrustful of WoTC is "OSR Taliban".  There are many people who have legitimate and honest reasons not to like 5e, or who felt sufficiently burnt by Wizards in the past (trust me, I can totally relate) that they're just not ready to trust anything they say until they  have the product in their hands.
And of course, there's also a lot of people displaying irrational hatred of 5e who have nothing to do with the OSR.

How does feeling that WOTC screwed 4E over, as a product, fall under this?

Quote from: Marleycat;758459Dammit!!!:) I totally forgot the 1st print Deities and Demigods. That book is mythical to me and mine. I heard about it but never ACTUALLY saw it.

I have seen two copies. One is in a private collection.

The other was in a store selling for US$70. I'll go with the 3.x version myself as I have it on PDF.

Quote from: Jame Rowe;759937How does feeling that WOTC screwed 4E over, as a product, fall under this?



I have seen two copies. One is in a private collection.

The other was in a store selling for US$70. I'll go with the 3.x version myself as I have it on PDF.

The one with Melnibone and Cthulhu?  I have like 4 of 'em, didn't know they were that rare.

Quote from: CRKrueger;759946The one with Melnibone and Cthulhu?  I have like 4 of 'em, didn't know they were that rare.

You might think of selling me one of them.

Quote from: CRKrueger;759946The one with Melnibone and Cthulhu?  I have like 4 of 'em, didn't know they were that rare.

They're not. If you are lucky you can even get them cheap because the seller doesn't know the difference between versions.

Quote from: estar;759819Eventually a D&D setting will go through their equivalent of the Renaissance, Reformation, Enlightenment, Industrial Revolution and it will be far out crazy because of magic.

Blackmoor would be an example of that. Magitech getting to the point that Blackmoor gets magically nuked off the map sufficient to tilt the planet off its axis.

Quote from: Marleycat;759838In 1/2e wizard is easy to qualify for, it's the Paladin or Bard that would be the special snowflake. Jibba has a point that if wizards were so rare they should have much stiffer entry requirements like a paladin. If you were never taking in things like the actual setting or other realistic factors.

Wizards are rare in 1/2 and even BX because they die to just about anything.

Wizardry probably has one of the highest mortality rates of any adventuring class.

Why are they so prolific at low levels then? Because of the very fact that IF you live long enough, you MIGHT gain incredible power. Hell, that is the motivation for some players who take mages.

Or to use a game design anology. Why do people keep putting out CCGs when the industry is paved with the hundreds of corpses of companies that have failed and failed and failed and failed? Because its seen as a road to incredible wealth IF you survive.

Quote from: Omega;759962Blackmoor would be an example of that. Magitech getting to the point that Blackmoor gets magically nuked off the map sufficient to tilt the planet off its axis.

Or Mystara I LOVE Mystara.

Quote from: Omega;759968Wizards are rare in 1/2 and even BX because they die to just about anything.

Wizardry probably has one of the highest mortality rates of any adventuring class.

Why are they so prolific at low levels then? Because of the very fact that IF you live long enough, you MIGHT gain incredible power. Hell, that is the motivation for some players who take mages.

Or to use a game design anology. Why do people keep putting out CCGs when the industry is paved with the hundreds of corpses of companies that have failed and failed and failed and failed? Because its seen as a road to incredible wealth IF you survive.

Interesting theory if a bit self fulfilling...I like it.

Considering I had zero expectations for Yu Gi Oh! and Kaijudo and Vanguard, as they came long after the CCG bubble, it is quite valid that one can still make it.

Ambition, the desire for legacy, and the vicissitudes of Fate and Time are easy setting explanations for much about high lvl wizards, plentiful apprentices, and strewn about magic items.

But then it is still all about your own views on your own setting, and thus context remains king.

Quote from: Opaopajr;760024Considering I had zero expectations for Yu Gi Oh! and Kaijudo and Vanguard, as they came long after the CCG bubble, it is quite valid that one can still make it.

Ambition, the desire for legacy, and the vicissitudes of Fate and Time are easy setting explanations for much about high lvl wizards, plentiful apprentices, and strewn about magic items.

But then it is still all about your own views on your own setting, and thus context remains king.

Now THAT makes sense. It's similar to Mage the Awakening's setting conceit's....Obsession, mystery, power, and power corrupts.