What's your opinion? It seems to be very popular and has provided the inspiration for a number of games. I haven't really seen the appeal. Most of the settings seem either very weird, a little bleak or, honestly, kind of dull, unless you play certain types of characters. And some of "transhumanist" technology and ideals are a disturbing.

People keep saying this word around me. I do not know what it means.

Weird and bleak settings make for interesting adventure. And you don't have to buy into "Transhumanism" as a philosophy (or lack thereof ) to enjoy transhuman literature or games. Hell, cyberpunk very much veers into small-t transhuman speculation right out of the gate with Neuromancer, Johnny Mnemonic, Snow Crash etc.

And not all transhuman SF is upbeat and a-okay with sticking chips inside your brain. A fair bit of it (Altered Carbon springs to mind) is pretty much cyberpunk on steroids. And even the high-minded "it's so cool to exist disembodied inside a computer and/or change bodies like one changes underwear" stuff can be pretty depressing (Greg Egan's Diaspora).

I cannot really speak of "transhuman SF gaming" as a broad genre, but I'd rather speak of each transhuman SF setting on its own merits because, quite frankly, some games make the genre's tropes work and some don't. I can vouch for Eclipse Phase because it offers PCs one huge obvious hook and a number of not-so-obvious hooks spread all over the setting, which is a really cool take on the Solar System plus a few extrasolar colonies. I feel this is at least in part because it holds back the wilder excesses (e.g. desktop transmutation) while using the others to good effect (forks, resleeving, psychosurgery, etc.).

The one thing I have to criticize about the game is the authors' political bias but for the most part I feel that's easy to ignore.

Quote from: Nexus;758953What's your opinion? It seems to be very popular and has provided the inspiration for a number of games. I haven't really seen the appeal. Most of the settings seem either very weird, a little bleak or, honestly, kind of dull, unless you play certain types of characters. And some of "transhumanist" technology and ideals are a disturbing.

I think there's a certain amount of wish fulfillment for those that do not find transhumanist tech/ideals disturbing.

Quote from: Nexus;758953What's your opinion? It seems to be very popular and has provided the inspiration for a number of games. I haven't really seen the appeal. Most of the settings seem either very weird, a little bleak or, honestly, kind of dull, unless you play certain types of characters. And some of "transhumanist" technology and ideals are a disturbing.

I love the genre from a literary standpoint*, but from an RPG standpoint I think it's a bit far out. Part of that is I have a hard time figuring out how "save vs grey goo" would work or be fun.  I do still like putting bits of transhumanism in my games, though I'm as likely to do it in fantasy as I am sci-fi.  After all, most fantasy settings are effectively transhuman as is with all the various odd magics(technologies), weird species, monsters, and the like.  Though their ubiquity has as much impact as their existence, whether fantasy or sci-fi.

Some things that can seem like ideals are more or less just things that I think will happen if we make the relevant breakthroughs in science, and we will have to deal with them, whether good or bad in each case.

*Though some of it is drivel, like Altered Carbon.

Science wise, it is very suspect, humans are emotional operators and very much tied to biology. Thus putting a human in a machine, would most likely irrevocably change the person. An AI would be totally different as a conscious, self-aware being, for example, all knowledge uploaded would be instantly known for the most part, a novel read in a millisecond. Operating from the same information, in a logical manner, the thoughts of two different AI's would be the same. So as to them, individuality would not be important maybe; I don't necessarily think they would be evil, or harmful to us though.

I've played a few sessions via roll20 of Eclipse Phase; yes, the ethos of the company and a lot of the design options in the game make my skin crawl but ultimately it's another RPG to me.

As to what transhumanism is I guess the easiest definition would be that it involves a time when your physical self can be swapped out/changed at will and has no concrete basis once you can make the decision to upgrade or alter your physical being (or ditch it entirely and live as say a cloud of super-networked nano-bugs), and as the brain is copyable and can be uploaded into any number of devices or saved on any kind of media, death has no real meaning any longer.  Of course, with nanomachines and "maker" technology as common as fast food, the societies of transhuman sci-fi are truly post-scarcity, and (as in Eclipse Phase) stuff works on Reputation, that is your status with a group such as a criminal gang, a government, a media conglomerate, a company (yes, those still exist) and so on is the real currency you trade in.

Of course there are places where the rubber meets the road, so to speak.  The central conceit as I understand it of Eclipse Phase is that AIs destroyed the earth as far as being a home for humanity and the remnants of humanity are spread out across the solar system.  However, on earth there are still hardy bands of survivors making it in a kind of Mad Max tribal warrior society thing, fighting the machines ala The Matrix, and they want as little truck with ultra high tech (from our point of view anyway) tech as possible, if a GM has a game going there, on Earth, then you can deal in real money again if you want...

Just some discussion points, hope that helps.

Meh. Nothing there for me! I like bits of transhumanism just fine, but centering a whole game around it - Big-T Transhumanism - Just feels boring to me. Of course, nobody gives a flying fart what I think! And rightly so

-clash

Quote from: Nexus;758953What's your opinion? It seems to be very popular and has provided the inspiration for a number of games. I haven't really seen the appeal. Most of the settings seem either very weird, a little bleak or, honestly, kind of dull, unless you play certain types of characters. And some of "transhumanist" technology and ideals are a disturbing.

Quote from: Scott Anderson;758954People keep saying this word around me. I do not know what it means.

Transhumanism

Transhuman

The settings tend to focus on the ability to copy, upload and even alter your mind and then copy, enhance or even create anew your body then mix and match at your leisure. Nano technology (real ones, like molecule sized robots) can transform materials or create things at the molecular level.

You have 3D printing so advanced you only need raw materials and a template and you can print ANYTHING. Welcome to a post-scarcity economy folks. Your reputation holds more currency then, well the non-existent currency! Paris Hilton can buy a moon. You better be good to people, or you won't be able to buy a pair of pants.

There's the idea of ubiquitous networking, computing and surveillance. Computers, cameras and unfathomable data is in everything and everywhere. Your outfit knows when you're too hot and vents for airflow. Your running shoes adjust the grip for the best stance, reducing fatigue. Your personal assistant can tell your stressing out and starts playing your favorite song in the background to calm you down while you check your schedule. Shit is getting smart. So smart that the things you use everyday KNOW you and can customize your experience.

Transhuman Space from GURPS has a much more refined "real world" aesthetic, with a broader setting for myriad adventure ideas (espionage, politics, military action, police drama, et al.). It is SJGames/GURPS detailed which gives lots of options, well detailed technology and lots of great ideas.

Eclipse Phase brings in a full apocalypse where humanity inhabits our solar system but has abandoned Earth as it is now inhabitable because of the leftover machines that want to destroy you. There are "gates" that can take you to exoplanets (not in our solar system), and the Titans (the bad guy? AI that destroyed everything) have a virus that can turn a person or thing into a horrible monster. The best adventures in this setting (IHMO) focus on being Fire Wall agents, a clandestine organization trying to prevent any further extinction level events.

Nova Praxis assumes a limited singularity event where the AI turned itself off and left behind massive amounts of data and research to plunder for technology. There's anti-gravity, FTL, multiple worlds as well as the TH elements. I haven't been able to dig more into it, but it looks like a fun "space-opera hard sci-fi" hybrid with a "futurist" transhuman technology bent.

The appeal? I can give you my personal take on it. As far as "power fantasies" go? This is my fantasy. Ditch this shit-useless broken sick body for a nicely tuned genetically clean one with all the mods I could dream of, and upload my mind in it. Then go on a new adventure. Later, when I want to, switch over to a underwater model and explore the ocean. Later, I can switch into a zero-g model and head out into space and try my hand at space walking. Oh, and I can live forever. As long as I have a new body to resleave into, I'm golden.

So now, take this power fantasy and ramp it up to 11. Wanna be a cop? Well, in your regular run of the mill body, it could be dangerous, but how about we drop you in a hybrid cybernetic-biological frame about 9 feet tall with Bruce Lee reflexes and Hulk strength? Oh, and a armor suit with a weapon suite that makes a modern military squad look like kids playing dodge ball.

Or how about being a super-spy? Why disguise yourself? Need to be a hot woman to infiltrate the casino, upload into a hot-woman body. Need to be a central African native merc? Not a problem, we have a body for that too. Need suction fingers? Night vision built into your eyes? Enhanced strength and reflexes in a "normal" looking package? No problem. The Company has the money and they can buy you whatever body you need.

Personally I love the genre. You have to dig in a little, read the GM sections of the books, and understand that there's more to this than just the "weird" parts. Some of these technologies could easily be part of our actual future. This genre gives us the opportunity to make-believe our way around some of those possibilities. The technology is fun to imagine and the shenanigans that fall out of it intriguing. Just my two cents of course...

Quote from: Brander;758957... "save vs grey goo" would work or be fun.  ...

I ran a generic sci-fi game using Savage Worlds that had plenty of advanced tech, much of it "transhuman" in nature. I had standard anti-nano security on ships and people could carry "grenades" that countered nano in a similar way.

I believe that if we had technology that advanced, we would also come up with solutions to combat it. Even today we have anti-radiation meds. We can't currently counter a nuclear bomb when it explodes, but we've come up with creative ways to stop the missile before it hits. :-)

I think having the "grey goo" thing looming over the PCs heads makes the genre less fun, so instead I counter it so it has more of a "ebola virus" level of dread vs. "oh crap everything's dead button" one. If you get to it quickly, you can survive it. If you find yourself facing it unprepared, you're in trouble.

Prince Charles warned us about grey goo years ago. He's such a tard, I tend to believe the opposite of whatever he's peddling.

Quote from: Scott Anderson;758986Prince Charles warned us about grey goo years ago. He's such a tard, I tend to believe the opposite of whatever he's peddling.

Camilla's not hot or anything, but damn, that's a harsh thing to say about your own damn wife.

Quote from: dragoner;758958Science wise, it is very suspect, humans are emotional operators and very much tied to biology. Thus putting a human in a machine, would most likely irrevocably change the person.

Maybe. I don't know if there's a humanity cost in the current TH games (I own EP and NP but so far only skimmed them); arguably there should be. But that doesn't need to be any more mechanically complicated than humanity loss in Cyberpunk.

The really hard part of TH as RPG genre is (IMO) reconciling differences in knowledge. I believe local cortical stacks can be destroyed in EP, but the player can survive by having their backup mind re-sleeved in a new one? In that case you run into issues of player vs player-character continuity. Can someone who's actually read the books say whether or not this could happen -- and if so, how it's dealt with?

Quote from: The Butcher;758955Weird and bleak settings make for interesting adventure. And you don't have to buy into "Transhumanism" as a philosophy (or lack thereof ) to enjoy transhuman literature or games. Hell, cyberpunk very much veers into small-t transhuman speculation right out of the gate with Neuromancer, Johnny Mnemonic, Snow Crash etc.

I assumed it was a given that Transhumanism as a genre is post-post-cyberpunk.

Quote from: dragoner;758958Science wise, it is very suspect, humans are emotional operators and very much tied to biology. Thus putting a human in a machine, would most likely irrevocably change the person. An AI would be totally different as a conscious, self-aware being, for example, all knowledge uploaded would be instantly known for the most part, a novel read in a millisecond. Operating from the same information, in a logical manner, the thoughts of two different AI's would be the same. So as to them, individuality would not be important maybe; I don't necessarily think they would be evil, or harmful to us though.

This was part of the cyber-psychosis rules from CP2020, I never really got onboard with the idea as I would love a full on cyberpunk prosthetic arm. A whole artificial body though...? Hmmm.

Quote from: robiswrong;759019Camilla's not hot or anything, but damn, that's a harsh thing to say about your own damn wife.

Best thing I've read all day!

Quote from: smiorgan;759027I believe local cortical stacks can be destroyed in EP, but the player can survive by having their backup mind re-sleeved in a new one? In that case you run into issues of player vs player-character continuity. Can someone who's actually read the books say whether or not this could happen -- and if so, how it's dealt with?

We dealt with it as an extension of in-character/out-of-character information.

Describe a bit more, maybe I miss your point.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;759039I assumed it was a given that Transhumanism as a genre is post-post-cyberpunk.

Transhuman SF is not necessarily the same as transhumanist SF.

"Transhuman" as a concept predates Transhumanism as a school of thought, and both predate cyberpunk SF. The separate Wikipédia articles for each do a good job of splitting this particular hair.

Cyberpunk SF, to the best of my knowledge, is never Transhumanist, but very often transhuman, even if the term wasn't en vogue when the genre's landmark works first saw publication.

"Transhumanist SF" is a term I haven't really encountered yet but I'd understand it as applying to transhuman SF that aligns ideologically with Transhumanism.