Quote from: Vandraman;755250OK, so my first query would be, why build a megadungeon? It's a throwback genre based on ancient tabletop boardgame-style experiences. It's almost impossible to generate a plausible sense of place, and you narrow your 'roleplaying' experience to a series of slaughterfests interrupted by puzzles like traps and secret doors. You say yourself you have a group of 30-somethings, who have some experience of gaming - why not design a setting which permits roleplaying with social interaction, moral complexity and meaningful choices, investigation (which is not mapping a dungeon, btw) and above all plausibility and perhaps something like alternative historical realism.

FYI, there are megadungeons like this.  

But to really address your entire post in a simple response:  Are people having fun playing it?  That's the only question that matters.  Not "How do they make fire in one?"  It sounds like you won't have fun playing a traditional "non-realistic" dungeon, but a lot of people actually do.  I imagine most megadungeons are catering towards them, and not yourself.

After all, it's just a game.

Quote from: Vandraman;755250OK, so my first query would be, why build a megadungeon? It's a throwback genre based on ancient tabletop boardgame-style experiences. It's almost impossible to generate a plausible sense of place, and you narrow your 'roleplaying' experience to a series of slaughterfests interrupted by puzzles like traps and secret doors. You say yourself you have a group of 30-somethings, who have some experience of gaming - why not design a setting which permits roleplaying with social interaction, moral complexity and meaningful choices, investigation (which is not mapping a dungeon, btw) and above all plausibility and perhaps something like alternative historical realism.

r?

I like a good gritty urban investigation as much as the next guy, but I think megadungeons can be loads of fun as a player, and they will offer up plenty of roleplaying opportunities provided the PCs don't hack everything they encounter. I do like plausibility and realism in doses, but I also want fantastical things that are not strictly based on history. I mean a real dungeon is going to be nothing like the ones we have in D&D, but they also are a bit boring. And I say that as a GM who tends to lean on real world history a lot, whose dungeons tend to be more real world. It the right rpg that works great, but in one focused on adventure like D&D, you can take liberties with reality.

Quote from: Vandraman;755250If you want to make an underground space, I would suggest as adult roleplayers you address the issues I raise above - make the space a living, breathing place which houses creatures in plausible ecosystems and with working cultures. Allow a range of ways to engage with the intelligent races. You have a smart group of adults in a room - you admire creativity and intelligence - aim higher?

I don't usually comment like this. But what pretentious crap. There is plenty of room in the hobby for dungeon focused play as well as more realistic role-play heavy (and there is a good deal in between as well).

Quote from: Sacrosanct;755274FYI, there are megadungeons like this.  

But to really address your entire post in a simple response:  Are people having fun playing it?  That's the only question that matters.  Not "How do they make fire in one?"  It sounds like you won't have fun playing a traditional "non-realistic" dungeon, but a lot of people actually do.

I'd honestly really like to see a megadungeon like that. For real. Do you have a link?

Re. having fun - sure, I can see it being fun for a couple of hours as a retro 'let's turn our brains off and play an old school dungeon hack and slash' for a bit, but I'm genuinely puzzled about the appeal after a short spell. You don't get tired of 'roll to hit' and 'roll damage' and 'disarm the trap on the chest' then 'take the loot back to town to sell up' then rinse and repeat?

I enjoyed it when I was beginning roleplaying. I like it in CRPGs and in gamebooks occasionally. But when I have real gamers in a room, there is just SO much more this gaming experience can be. I say again - I'm genuinely baffled why you wouldn't mostly choose the non hack-and-slash megadungeon path. Unless you had a really, really bad day at work!

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;755289I don't usually comment like this. But what pretentious crap. There is plenty of room in the hobby for dungeon focused play as well as more realistic role-play heavy (and there is a good deal in between as well).

Well, sorry you find it pretentious, fella. I'm not pretending anything, actually, and you don't know me, so I find it odd you would assert some sort of pretence. And honestly, disappointing to find an ad hominem attack from a Moderator in response to what is a pretty carefully reasoned and enthusiastic-about-the-hobby post.

As I say, in the confines of a CRPG, or a gamebook, I can see you don't have the human resources to generate true creativity, so you get more dungeon-style experiences with all the compromises in immersion and plausibility (not 'realism', per se - I'm not especially focused on recreating the minutiae of history, or limiting imaginative and fantasy content). I do find it odd that so many years on from the earlist Gygaxian endeavours so many people spend so much time on such a narrow gaming experience. Beginners, sure, simplify the action. And later, sure, enjoy some combats, no problem. I'm proposing wall to wall social interaction with nothing else. I just think dungeons tend strongly towards a feeling of artificiality and a really really limited 'palette'. Compare it to eating Cheerios all three meals of the day, all the time. Wouldn't you wonder why you don't try something else - there's alot of tastier food out there!

Quote from: Vandraman;755298I'd honestly really like to see a megadungeon like that. For real. Do you have a link?

Off the top of my head...

QuoteRe. having fun - sure, I can see it being fun for a couple of hours as a retro 'let's turn our brains off and play an old school dungeon hack and slash' for a bit, but I'm genuinely puzzled about the appeal after a short spell. You don't get tired of 'roll to hit' and 'roll damage' and 'disarm the trap on the chest' then 'take the loot back to town to sell up' then rinse and repeat?

As I said, you don't have to get it.  You have your preferences and apparently dungeon crawling isn't one of them.  Good for you.  Other people do like it.  I don't like tactical play.  But I know a lot of people do, so I'm not going to go around saying tactical grid based play is dumb.

QuoteI enjoyed it when I was beginning roleplaying. I like it in CRPGs and in gamebooks occasionally. But when I have real gamers in a room, there is just SO much more this gaming experience can be. I say again - I'm genuinely baffled why you wouldn't mostly choose the non hack-and-slash megadungeon path. Unless you had a really, really bad day at work!

"Real" gamers?  :nono:

take that kind of attitude and shove it.

Quote from: Vandraman;755300Well, sorry you find it pretentious, fella. I'm not pretending anything, actually, and you don't know me, so I find it odd you would assert some sort of pretence. And honestly, disappointing to find an ad hominem attack from a Moderator in response to what is a pretty carefully reasoned and enthusiastic-about-the-hobby post.

As I say, in the confines of a CRPG, or a gamebook, I can see you don't have the human resources to generate true creativity, so you get more dungeon-style experiences with all the compromises in immersion and plausibility (not 'realism', per se - I'm not especially focused on recreating the minutiae of history, or limiting imaginative and fantasy content). I do find it odd that so many years on from the earlist Gygaxian endeavours so many people spend so much time on such a narrow gaming experience. Beginners, sure, simplify the action. And later, sure, enjoy some combats, no problem. I'm proposing wall to wall social interaction with nothing else. I just think dungeons tend strongly towards a feeling of artificiality and a really really limited 'palette'. Compare it to eating Cheerios all three meals of the day, all the time. Wouldn't you wonder why you don't try something else - there's alot of tastier food out there!

If you can't see how your coming off as pretentious, not sure how what I can really say.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;755302Off the top of my head...



As I said, you don't have to get it.  You have your preferences and apparently dungeon crawling isn't one of them.  Good for you.  Other people do like it.  I don't like tactical play.  But I know a lot of people do, so I'm not going to go around saying tactical grid based play is dumb.

"Real" gamers?  :nono:

take that kind of attitude and shove it.

Ok, thanks for the link, I'll have a look in a bit.

it's fine saying 'I like dungeon crawling' - but I wonder can you develop on that a bit? What's the appeal?

And 'real gamers' - as opposed to a book, or a computer. Living, real people with human intelligence and capacity to improvise and adapt, ie. all humans who game. So cut the offensive language, fella.

A well-designed, well-run megadungeon *is* a living, breathing organism of its own, not a set of encounters to be overcome.  Actions have reactions.  The inhabitants react to what occurs as much as you do.

The inherent constraints of the dungeon format are great for forcing hard choices.  When you can't run in any given direction, thinking about how you're going to get out becomes important.

Additionally, old school D&D isn't really "about" hack'n'slash.  It's about "how much treasure can I get out and escape with my life".  Yes, I mean GP for XP.  It's a small rule that vastly increases the types of play that the game supports.

Going into a dungeon isn't about being the Big Damn Heroes that kill everything.  It's about getting in and escaping with your damn life.  It's survival horror.

Edit:  If you're judging dungeons mainly based on your experiences when you were ten, try them with some adults.  And since you seem to be somewhat into the whole indie thing, you might try reading this:  https://plus.google.com/111266966448135449970/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5

Quote from: Vandraman;755300Well, sorry you find it pretentious, fella. I'm not pretending anything, actually, and you don't know me, so I find it odd you would assert some sort of pretence. And honestly, disappointing to find an ad hominem attack from a Moderator in response to what is a pretty carefully reasoned and enthusiastic-about-the-hobby post.

He he, welcome to TheRPGSite!
They've been quite gentle with you so far...

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;755307If you can't see how your coming off as pretentious, not sure how what I can really say.

If you can't clearly express where you think I'm pretending to know of experience something which I do not, or using words I don't understand, I can only assume you're mis-using the word 'pretentious' in the same way a high school kid uses it to dismiss arguments or ideas without engaging with them.

Could you try reasoned argument instead of dismissing my 'aim higher' suggestion? And let's remember, my tone throughout has been at the level of suggestion and 'you might like to consider' rather than to dismiss with one -liners or condemn whole groups. I'm somewhat puzzled about the enduring popularity of dungeon appeal, but I get some of its appeal. Partly that's why I'm engaging in this discussion. I invite you to explain what appeals to you.

You could say 'I never actually find myself questioning the realism of a dungeon environment, I just take it as part of the suspension of disbelief inherent in the campaign we're running. I actually like the puzzle-solving and simplicity of the task. Each in the group has to work effectively together to overcome the challenges, and this forms a tight group bond which I find satisfying. It's mechanical but it requires expertise and good teamwork. I don't want complex nuanced social interaction in a dungeon bash - I play other games for that.' Or whatever.  

But 'you're so pretentious' - that rebounds back on you and makes you look dumb, man. Engage brain before your next reply.

Quote from: robiswrong;755317A well-designed, well-run megadungeon *is* a living, breathing organism of its own, not a set of encounters to be overcome.  Actions have reactions.  The inhabitants react to what occurs as much as you do.

The inherent constraints of the dungeon format are great for forcing hard choices.  When you can't run in any given direction, thinking about how you're going to get out becomes important.

Additionally, old school D&D isn't really "about" hack'n'slash.  It's about "how much treasure can I get out and escape with my life".  Yes, I mean GP for XP.  It's a small rule that vastly increases the types of play that the game supports.

Going into a dungeon isn't about being the Big Damn Heroes that kill everything.  It's about getting in and escaping with your damn life.  It's survival horror.

Thanks - this is really interesting stuff. This perspective/ 'mood' hadn't really occurred to me. Looks like I have some reading to do

Quote from: Vandraman;755321If you can't clearly express where you think I'm pretending to know of experience something which I do not, or using words I don't understand, I can only assume you're mis-using the word 'pretentious' in the same way a high school kid uses it to dismiss arguments or ideas without engaging with them.
.

I am not going to debate words with you. And I am absolutley being dismissive of your argument because your language and tone suggest you are trolling.

Quote from: Vandraman;755323Thanks - this is really interesting stuff. This perspective/ 'mood' hadn't really occurred to me. Looks like I have some reading to do

Dungeon-based gaming (and old school gaming) is very different from what you're probably used to.  The analogy I often use here is racing cars vs. Jeeps, but I'll reverse it this time, so that my analogy stays consistent.

You're used to driving a Jeep and going offroad.  Megadungeons and the style of play surrounding them are like race cars.  They do a specialized thing, and they take that thing to the extreme.

From an off-roader perspective, the question you might ask is "why limit yourself to just going on a prepared track?  With my Jeep, I can do *everything*!"  Which is true.  But you're not going to get the same thrill of acceleration, the same level of handling, the same pure adrenaline rush as you test your skill like you would from a race car.

Don't judge a megadungeon game by the same criteria you'd judge a (from your perspective) 'normal' game.  Judge it by its *own* criteria.  Find someone running a megadungeon game that knows what they're doing, and ask to join, and play without your preconceived notions of what gaming "should be".  You might find you like it.  You might not.  But at least you'll be dealing with the thing *itself*, and not how the thing compares to your preconceived notions.

Quote from: S'mon;755320He he, welcome to TheRPGSite!
They've been quite gentle with you so far...

Hell, he hasn't even been called a Swine yet!