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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Design, Development, and Gameplay => Topic started by: The Butcher on January 08, 2012, 09:39:05 AM

Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Butcher on January 08, 2012, 09:39:05 AM
So, I'm preparing an old school D&D game, and right now the only thing I'm 100% sure is that it's going to be a dungeon-centric campaign (an approach which should hopefully come across as fairly novel to my group, a crowd of 30-somethings who grew up playing mostly AD&D 2e). Sounds like a good time for a dungeon-building thread! I've been reading up on the OSR blogosphere (Philotomy's Musings, Justin Alexander's "jaquaying" essays, and sundry stuff from Jeff Rients and Zak Smith and sundry other brilliant, creative guys who are into dungeon-crawling).

For me, this means a fairly big dungeon (certainly bigger than any I've ever designed back in the day; the biggest one I've ever designed so far had 3, maybe 4 levels) with plenty of discontinuous and non-linear construction (forks and loops, secret levels and sub-levels, elevations, shafts which bypass one or more levels, secret passages galore, etc.) the better to instigate and reward exploration for its own sake.

It's occurred to me that, since the campaign will be mostly centered around the dungeon, one could use the dungeon to reveal the history of the setting, with levels acting as archeological strata. The top level, the "tip of the iceberg", might be a relatively recent construction like an abandoned keep or monastery; the cellar might lead to a tomb complex dating to the Old Empire, then to ruined dwarven warrens dating back to before the Dwarf-Elf War, and so on, and so forth, until players reach evidence of the setting's SF roots. As PCs go further down the dungeon, scripts become ancient and unintelligible without scholarly assistance, treasure gets rarer and weirder, traps get deadlier and stranger, and of course, monsters grow bigger, badder and older.

The one thing that's been bugging me is, how do I go about it?
How big do I make the dungeon?
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?
What software, if any, do you recommend for dungeon map creation? I'm doing it by hand, but having simple and handy software at hand might be nice.
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how the fuck do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?

Advice on this, and on anything else you deem appropriate for a DM who's run his share of D&D (though not a lot of dungeon crawls, and none of them particularly extensive) is most welcome. Share your tips and tricks and success stories and hard-earned lessons. It's all good to me.

Besides, if anyone feels (like me) that theory-wank and edition-warring and general pointless trolling having been taking over the Roleplaying Games forum lately, here's a challenge: let's see how massive can we make an actual gaming thread with practical applications.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 08, 2012, 09:43:31 AM
I'll throw you some tricks, but bear in mind - Dungeon Crawls aren't my forte, so take my advice with grain of salt.

Right now, I designed a big dungeon in style of a tower - players just go up and up. Simple, it'd be, right?

Except that the dungeon belongs to a mad wizard who had about 2000 - 3000 years to regret his original actions. So after each fighting levels, the heroes step into a cloud of Black Lotus smoke  that fills the tower, and are transported to the vision of tower's past, in city of elves, where they have to make a choice, just like people there did - for example, the last vision is about a group of guards who hear female screams of pain from wizard's chamber, that are asking for help, while guard's captain, a fearsome Swordsman of Hoeth, tells them that the wizard's taking what's his due and needed for saving the town, and he tosses them a pouch of gold to go away.

If the players will do the wrong moral choice, they will be usually be rewarded with some money or experience or trinkets, which will oddly enough stay after the vision ends.

But if they do the right moral choice, it weakens the amount of Toughness, Strength, Wounds and Magic Points that the wizard will have at the final fight.

So I guess my point is - you can do some really interesting RP opportunities (I know that this is a pretty straightforward and not exactly genius design, but I hope it'll prove a challenge to the players, if even a bit), even on a "dungeon crawl".
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: ggroy on January 08, 2012, 09:46:21 AM
Is this megadungeon going to be the size of a small or medium sized city?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: VectorSigma on January 08, 2012, 02:31:59 PM
Love love love the 'archaeological strata' idea.

I've never run a real megadungeon, either, so I'll be watching this thread intently for lessons-learned.

As far as 'how much needs to be done before the first session'...it's probably a matter of taste.  If you're the sort who likes all the rooms keyed, then I'd say make sure you have the first two levels done or nearly done in time for the first session.  But if you're content to have the 'fringes' of your map populated on the fly by tables, you can get away with less detail before 'game on'.

I would suggest finding a couple of freebie maps (esp. if populated) on various blogs and keeping them in your notebook.  If the PC's wander off your map down a stray tunnel, you always know you can pull out one of those little mapped areas as a 'sub-level' and might not feel that sense of panic and impending doom.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: two_fishes on January 08, 2012, 04:42:31 PM
I know it's not the sort of advice/info you are asking for, but I presume you have heard of Derinkyu and other underground cities in Cappadocia (http://www.cappadociaturkey.net/undergroundcities.htm)?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Pseudoephedrine on January 08, 2012, 04:54:04 PM
I recommend one level fully mapped out, plus some cheats to start. A starting level for a megadungeon should be between 20 and 40 rooms, with a couple of entrances and exits - some to back to the surface, some further down. In general, I try to have at least three entrance/exits per level: the one the PCs come from, one leading further down into the dungeon, and one leading either to a side area or another level. You can vary how accessible these areas are (magical barriers, locked doors, etc.), which allows you to control the pace the PCs advance at.

To map out 20-40 rooms without going insane, as well as to have plenty side areas, here are some useful tricks:

1) The numbers trick from Vornheim, where you take a sheet of paper and draw out numbers at various orientations. This will give you an irregular, complex corridor system to work with, and you can just place rooms hither and thither at intersections, the ends of corridors and wherever else you please.

2) Floor plan maps. If you go to Google and do an image search for "catacomb floor plan", "tomb floor plan", etc., you will encounter tons and tons and tons of readily usable floor plans that serve as great side-areas where you can stick boss monsters, hoards of treasure, change the theme of the level, and otherwise fiddle around. When I run big dungeons, I often keep a ready supply of these printed out that I can pull out as needed.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Kaldric on January 08, 2012, 05:03:08 PM
I'm in the spitballing stage of setting up the same sort of thing, for an open-table campaign sometime in the next year or so.

My megadungeon is going to be dug into the face of a chalk cliff - like the White Cliffs of Dover.

The dungeon itself is going to be an elaboration of Petra and the West Wycombe Caves. There will be two main ways in - the more obvious way, from the main entrance in the cliff face and the more hidden ways into the face, and down into the complex from the top of the cliff, above.

The dungeon's levels, in terms of general power of the monsters and such, will be easiest near the face of the cliff, becoming more difficult as the adventurers move inward. The rationale for this is that there have been adventurers coming here for many years, clearing the galleries that are easiest to reach, and retiring or dying before penetrating too far. The more powerful monsters tend to push the weaker towards the entrance, as a buffer against annoying treasure-seekers.

There will be jungle at the top of the cliff, running back to a mountain range. There will be entrances into the deeper levels of the complex hidden in this jungle - perhaps the jungle hides the remnants of the civilization that started building the complex. The jungle is going to be really, really nasty. I'm thinking forgotten temples completely overgrown by the vegetation, a Lost World vibe with dinosaurs and giant apes and lizardmen/snake-people. Still - if you want to venture into the jungle, or have some way of flying over it (without being eaten by pterosaurs, etc), you can reach the hidden entrances to the more remote galleries.

Within the complex, most of it will be excavated from chalk and flint. The lower ranges of the complex extend below sea level, and are mostly, but not entirely, flooded - it would appear the water table has risen since the construction of the complex. Air circulates through the complex through tens thousands of minuscule cracks, holes, natural chimneys- near the cliff face one can often smell the sea, and near the surface there are the root systems of the colossal jungle trees.

There will be areas of natural caves interspersed with worked areas, and many of the worked areas will be expansions of natural caves. One will be able, with time and experience, to have a general idea of how deep beneath the surface one is by a sense of the humidity of the air, the style of the stonework and so on.

I'm thinking that near the cliff face, the structure will mostly be organized as a series of galleries - this is where the builders built inward from the cliff face, in stages. There will be many entrances, but mostly inaccessible - you have to climb out along the cliff face, and there are a few nasty creatures that live out there (hang-gliding hobgoblins?), as well as the physical problems of reaching the more remote entrances on a cliff face of eroded chalk. The structure here will be mostly homogenous - one building style, for the first two levels or so in from the face.

After that, there will be sections, vertically organized, leading down from the upper works near the jungle surface. Given the easily workable nature of the chalk strata, it was almost easier to dig down than build up. So there will be identifiable areas which are connect to other bits, but they'll have their own individual idiosyncracies.

Most of these 'silos' will be connected to each other by natural caverns, but over the centuries, individual organizations have come and gone, controlling a number of areas and enhancing their connections, or fortifying their space against the depredations of their neighbors, building invasion tunnels and collapsing them, which leads to each of the individual silos being connected to many others, by more and less difficult/obvious ways.

I'm thinking that the campaign will probably start from the main entrance, and they'll work out ways of travelling deeper and deeper into the complex. When people want out, they'll have to decide whether they can retrace the path to the cliff face, or, if they're lost and turned around, whether it's best to simply head upwards to get out. Of course, then they'll be in the jungle, which brings its own set of problems.

The base of operations, at least in the beginning, will be across a channel (think Calais, across from the dungeon entrance at Dover). The adventurers may eventually set something up on the other side - until then, 'home base' is a day's travel over the ocean, while the forward base will be rather more precarious - a camp on the shore, protecting their boat.

Anyway, that's what I have so far.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Premier on January 08, 2012, 06:34:06 PM
This short essay (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=8720) written by Melan makes a good point about one certain element of dungeon design. You should definitely read it.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: arminius on January 08, 2012, 07:10:13 PM
This all sounds good, including the questions. The only things I have answers for right now are:
Quote from: The Butcher;501805
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?

I'd recommend having a home base, which can be as detailed or abstracted as you like. Frankly, I have no problem with just telling the players at the start "there's a town X within a day's journey, at which you can buy anything in the standard equipment list at the standard price". You worry about complexifying that later, should you wish, by detailing the outdoors region around the dungeon & home base, adding personalities to the town, etc. Get playing right away.

For that, I have to say that I'm not keen on dicking around. Players need to get with the program. That means: either they supply a motivation for exploring the dungeon (like: I am eager for fame and fortune), or they will act reasonably when handed one. PCs can have all the backstory they want, and it might even factor into play at some point, but this is where we start. For a "concocted" motivation, I suggest something that can reasonably be combined with outright venality. E.g. back in my micro-dungeon (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=11362) scenario, I picked a PC who had a mentor (by definition, because he was a magic-user in Basic D&D, but in practice this could be a patron, boss, relative, whatever) and had him say, "Please investigate this place, bring me this thing if you can find it, and you can keep whatever else you find."

Frankly, I don't find highly "glorious, heroic" scenarios terribly exciting, partly because they carry too much of a moral imperative to succeed or die trying. YMMV. Players need to have the option to run away. Then again, the "15 minute adventuring day" needs to be overcome--you as GM have every right to make the dungeon respond and regenerate if given time.

Quote
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?
This can be harder than it seems, because as GM you get caught up interacting with the players. Probably the more used to dealing with 3 or more people vying for your attention you are, the easier it is. But you also need the cooperation and assistance of the players; if they're not into bean-counting, you may have to give up or find ways to facilitate. Any edition of classic D&D will give you guidelines along the lines of "1 Turn (10 minutes) to move 10' at exploration/mapping speed". So you just make hashmarks, and also roll for wandering monsters at whatever interval you've determined, whether it be 1/turn or less frequently. More frequently if the players cause a lot of noise in an area where they might be heard. To facilitate bean counting, you might try poker chips, actual beans, etc., telling players to toss them into a discard pile whenever you announce that time has passed, and refresh their pool when they light a new torch, etc.

An alternative would be to abstract resource usage into a die roll, or even into the wandering monster table. E.g., instead of a monster, one entry could be "torch gets used up".

Quote
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?

Quasi-realistic. Your ideas sound pretty good to me. Maybe watch or read Journey to the Center of the Earth for inspiration.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Kaldric on January 08, 2012, 11:31:53 PM
Here's how I keep time in the dungeon.

Get a sheet of cheap, college-ruled paper. There's about 33 lines on your standard sheet. Put hash marks through the blue line across the page - one big mark, five little ones, and another big one. That's one hour. Five more littles and a big, that's another hour. You can easily fit 12 hours across one page. Put a 12 at the end of the line. Repeat, putting a 24. Then a 36, and so on. Usually, dungeon expeditions are going to be a day or two long at most, so 4 lines at the top of the page is normally sufficient. If they're prepared for a much longer trip, just add some lines. It takes about 10 or 15 seconds to hash out a line, so setting up your time-keeper takes a minute or so for your standard dungeon expedition.

Before you start, look through your notes. How often do you need to check for wandering monsters? Mark that down on the chart - if it's every turn, because they're wearing plate armor or something, don't mark each one, just remember to roll each time you move forward a check mark.

When they step into the dungeon, start the count - you scratch forward along the ruled line, moving forward one small tick for every dungeon turn, 10 minutes, that passes. If they light a lantern that has an hour's worth of oil, just move forward six ticks and put a mark. That's when it runs out. If they light a torch, same thing. Same with spells that have long durations - when it's cast, count forward and put a mark where it ends - I use a little cross for torches, and an asterisk for lantern oil, and if it's a spell/disease/effect/whatever, I'll put a number on the line, and below the chart on the same page, I'll put the same number with "mage armor" or whatever next to it.

They should let you know how much food and water they have, when they go in. If their rations are measured by the day, then it's easy to simply say "mark off rations" when you reach the end of every even line. Same with water, if that's not easily available.

Establish a "Dungeoneering speed" and link it to the map you made. If the map has 10 foot squares, then in AD&D the group will move one square per turn per point of movement. So, if they have a 12" movement, they move 12 squares per turn (120 feet) at dungeoneering speed. Just count the number of squares they move on your map, and every time they pass their movement speed in squares, mark off a turn on your timekeeper.

TL;DR: Make a simple chart of 10 minute increments, broken up by hours, with 12 hours per college-ruled line. Make a list of common activities and the time they take, (including a 'dungeoneering movement' rate that accounts for mapping and searching for traps and doors, etc) and a list of expendables and how long they last. When an expendable is used, mark when it ends on the chart. When a common activity is performed, move the time forward the appropriate number of increments.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Good Assyrian on January 09, 2012, 12:30:47 AM
I am thinking about developing a "otherworldly" mega-dungeon for my next OD&D campaign.  My thinking has been influenced by Philotomy's musing on otherworldly dungeons and by the Soviet film "Stalker" in which there is an otherworldly place called the "Zone" where desperate people go to in order to seek their deepest desires.

So my imagining of a mega-dungeon is colored by greed and above all desperation.  Why would anyone risk their lives to enter such a place?  That is a question I want each of the players to answer for their characters.  It could just be greed of course, but I want them to think about it a bit.

I figured that there should of course be a ramshackle, filthy town that makes its living off the desperate and the foolish who come to enter the dungeon, almost all of them never to return.  There would be plenty of opportunity to sell the stuff of dreamers - fake maps, "guides" to the outskirts of the dungeon, and of course plenty of booze to buck up one's courage.

It is a pretty depressing vision, I admit, but it is what comes to me when I think of mega-dungeon now.  Although years ago we had a campaign in which the PCs were from a small town that had been bypassed by the new King's Highway and decided to team up with the local monsters to boost tourism by selling package tours to the nearby dungeon on the idea that most of the money that they found could be neatly parted from them afterwards.  It was totally played for comedy.


-TGA
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: arminius on January 09, 2012, 12:45:23 AM
Quote from: Kaldric;502050
Here's how I keep time in the dungeon.


That's excellent. No need to hand out poker chips, just create a timeline.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: jeff37923 on January 09, 2012, 02:00:21 AM
The advice that immediately comes to mind is make the first level easily accessible from several different openings, perhaps having a different humanoid tribe living at each one. Have all of them though connect to the deeper depths of the megadungeon. Think of the first level as the ghetto area of a city with several gangs (humanoids) fighting for control of the entrances and defending the sections that lead deeper into the megadungeon.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: GameDaddy on January 09, 2012, 02:23:23 AM
I have always liked what water does underground... It cuts channels and caverns and pools... In some places it dries out completely, only to return as a flash flood filling passageways rapidly if there is a heavy rain on the surface above.

Iv'e seen water cut spirals passageways straight down like chutes, and layered shelves form where water levels remain consistently for many eons and then suddenly drops or dries out leaving a basin, or a stairway of basins...

Canyons with bridges. Chasms... ancient chambers high up and seemingly inaccessible in large subterranean caverns. Phosphorescent light, coming from plants and lichens...

Close to the surface the roots of giant trees delve deep into caverns searching for water, and creating visual and physical obstacles...

Rivers and lakes... Mines that follow unexpected twists and turns in ore veins with sudden drops and equally sudden climbs.

Reflections... in the water, off the minerals in the very walls...

Catacombs, where the remains of the once living are discarded to eternal rest... or maybe not...
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Justin Alexander on January 09, 2012, 02:26:44 AM
Quote from: The Butcher;501805
How big do I make the dungeon?

Are you doing an open table or a steady group? For the latter, a true megadungeon will mean that you'll be wasting a lot of prep. I'd recommend something more on the scale of Caverns of Thracia or Rappan Athuk.

I'm also generally a fan of smaller levels and more of them.

Quote
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?

I'd recommend Level 1 and any level you can get to from Level 1, but this assumes my smaller levels.

As another rule of thumb: Assume 20 rooms of exploration per session. Any place the PCs can reach within 20 rooms of the entrance (same level or otherwise) should be ready-to-go when play starts. (This means 20 rooms of interest; not just 20 empty chambers.)

Quote
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?

Depends on the players. I've run two megadungeon-oriented campaigns: For one it was literally just "you guys like treasure; there's treasure in the dungeon". For the other, I had an elaborate background detailing a holy relic that was thought to be located somewhere in the megadungeon.

In either case, that initial hook is just a McGuffin. Once they're in the megadungeon other stuff is going to seize their interest.

(Design Tip: The point of the megadungeon isn't to Get to Level 20. Instead, the megadungeon should be thought of as a lot of different scenarios. There are the orc tribes on level 2; the Necromancer Wars on level 5; etc.)

Quote
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?

Most pre-2008 editions of D&D actually give you some pretty solid guidelines for this sort of thing, although they can occasionally be obfuscated.

In general, what you need are just two guidelines:

(1) How far can the characters travel in 10 minutes?
(2) How long does it take to search one 10' x 10' square?

In OD&D the answers are "speed in inches x 20 feet" and 10 minutes. (You'll note that this indicates a very slow and methodical approach to dungeon exploration.)

In 3E, the answers are "speed x 200" and "1 round (or 2 minutes for taking 20)".

Calculate for the lowest speed in the party and for the party's scout(s). From that you should be able to keep fairly accurate time. (I usually just keep a tally of ten minute intervals.)

For everything else, just roughly estimate it. If the players settle down and start talking plans, glance at a clock. When they're done, glance again. (Conversations are always real time.)

Quote
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how the fuck do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?

They don't. I generally postulate that it's a side-effect of preservation cantrips and blessings that get cast all the time in fantasy-land. It lets me get away with buried cities that don't need to be archaeologically dug up.

(The other option is that you're dealing with subterranean structures in the first place. Caverns of Thracia is an example of this, with nearly all of the original above-ground structures having been long since destroyed.)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: km10ftp on January 09, 2012, 02:26:57 AM
Quote from: The Butcher;501805
It's occurred to me that, since the campaign will be mostly centered around the dungeon, one could use the dungeon to reveal the history of the setting, with levels acting as archeological strata. The top level, the "tip of the iceberg", might be a relatively recent construction like an abandoned keep or monastery; the cellar might lead to a tomb complex dating to the Old Empire, then to ruined dwarven warrens dating back to before the Dwarf-Elf War, and so on, and so forth, until players reach evidence of the setting's SF roots.

The How To Host A Dungeon (http://planet-thirteen.com/images/dd/HowToHostADungeon.pdf) .pdf is a handy free online resource that can help develop the layers of history that make up a dungeon's backstory. I'm not sure how well it would scale up to megadungeon proportions. Regardless, it may still provide some inspiration.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: jeff37923 on January 09, 2012, 02:51:39 AM
Quote from: km10ftp;502126
The How To Host A Dungeon (http://planet-thirteen.com/images/dd/HowToHostADungeon.pdf) .pdf is a handy free online resource that can help develop the layers of history that make up a dungeon's backstory. I'm not sure how well it would scale up to megadungeon proportions. Regardless, it may still provide some inspiration.


I'm going to read this before bed tonight. Thanks for posting it!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Good Assyrian on January 09, 2012, 09:10:45 AM
Quote from: km10ftp;502126
The How To Host A Dungeon (http://planet-thirteen.com/images/dd/HowToHostADungeon.pdf) .pdf is a handy free online resource that can help develop the layers of history that make up a dungeon's backstory. I'm not sure how well it would scale up to megadungeon proportions. Regardless, it may still provide some inspiration.


That is cool!  Thanks for posting it!


-TGA
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Werekoala on January 09, 2012, 04:13:03 PM
Loving this advice- I haven't actually designed a dungeon in ages, I need to do it just for fun I think, and this is an inspiring thread. :)

Questions from me - do you draw the level first, then populate it? Populate it as you draw it? Or design it based on what you want the "theme" of the level to be and then populate it?

One thing I would recommend in order to keep the players from trying to go into places you don't have finished yet (like the next level down) because you KNOW they always will try - maybe have the main "bad guy" of the level hold a key or some other method the access the next level down? A bit video-gamey maybe, but effective.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Justin Alexander on January 11, 2012, 09:15:50 PM
Quote from: Werekoala;502428
Questions from me - do you draw the level first, then populate it? Populate it as you draw it? Or design it based on what you want the "theme" of the level to be and then populate it?

I follow a rough process of outline-draw-key: I start by putting together a rough outline of stuff I want on that dungeon level. Then I draw the map. Then I finalize the key.

In practice, this process is not clear-cut. I'll jot down notes on the key as I draw the map, etc.

For example, awhile back I did a level called the Bloodpool Labyrinth. It was meant to be reminiscent of the Tomb of Horrors (while not quite so ruthless) with a large mix of "exotic magicks". (The idea being that the PCs would get sabotaged by all this spell-like effects they weren't familiar with; and then later, deeper in the dungeon, they'd have a chance to find the spellbooks describing these spells.)

My first step was to hit up all the D20 grimoires I own looking for spells that could be modified into memorable traps. I also hit up Grimtooth's and a few other resources for trap inspiration. Put together a bit list of 30-40 "cool trap" ideas.

Then I sat down and started to map. What traps complement each other? What geography do the traps require? Et cetera. In the process, some traps didn't make the cut.

Then I came back for my third pass and finalized the key: Detailed descriptions. Figuring out exactly how some traps would work. Et cetera.

In other cases, the outline phase takes the the form of figuring out what the space was originally built for; or the factions that I want present; or a few big "set-pieces". Whatever the inspiration point is.

What I haven't done since I was 12 years old was simply draw a bunch of random shapes on some graph paper and then stock 'em with stuff. IME, that's a sure-fire way to produce a really boring dungeon.

Half the fun of a good dungeon is the architecture.

Quote
One thing I would recommend in order to keep the players from trying to go into places you don't have finished yet (like the next level down) because you KNOW they always will try - maybe have the main "bad guy" of the level hold a key or some other method the access the next level down?

I tend to avoid the idea of each level having a "boss fight" in general.

Also, while plot doors are annoying in CRPGs, they're pretty much untenable in D&D. Too many ways to bypass, overcome, or force the door.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Butcher on January 11, 2012, 11:03:50 PM
Great, practical advice all around. Thank you all! Keep it coming!

I particularly liked How To Host A Dungeon (very inspirational), Kaldric's time-keeping and Justin's outline-to-map method (I was definitely in the "draw some shapes, stock with stuff" group). Simple things, maybe, but priceless and game-table-worthy advice.

I'm definitely aiming for an open-table game, but it's almost guaranteed that we'll have a core of 3-4 players that'll develop over time.

I have yet to start work on it because I'm Real Life's bitch right now, but as soon as I get something done, I'll post it for critique.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 13, 2012, 12:57:45 PM
All the posts in this series (this is post 1 referenced in the list that follows)

Post 1: Answering to the OP, part 1 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=504466#post504466)
Post 2: Answering to the OP, part 2 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=504476#post504476)
Post 3: Answering to the OP, part 3 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=504481#post504481)
Post 4: Figuring out the setting, and sketching the megadungeon's side-view. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=505021#post505021)
Post 5: The multiple ideas we derive from our sketch (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=506673#post506673)
Post 6: The identity of our Builders is revealed (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=507344#post507344)
Post 7: Fleshing out the setting, wilderness and dungeon (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=510573#post510573)
Post 8: Diagram of Bandit Level layout (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=515153#post515153)
Post 9: Bandit Level mapping part 1 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=516318#post516318)
Post 10: Bandit Level mapping part 2 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=538909#post538909)
Post 11: Unified draft of the Bandit level (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=577344#post577344)
Post 12: Factions, history and relationships on the Bandit Level (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=578383#post578383)
Post 13: Bandit Level Map Key, Part 1 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=579792#post579792)
Post 14: Bandit Level Map Key, Part 2 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=584077#post584077)
Post 15: Bandit Level Map Key, Part 3 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=592579#post592579)
Post 16: Bandit Level Map Key, Part 4 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=665039#post665039)

Correlary Posts

Published examples of Megadungeons; why they cannot be considered finished products (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=518418#post518418)
More published examples, and how to not create boring and repetitive dungeons (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=537683&postcount=169)
An example of small dungeon level, or "lair" - The Tower of Saint Makhab, Level 2 (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17617)
Inventory of levels and sub-levels of the original Castle Greyhawk (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=54277) (from Allan Grohe)
What makes a great map Great? (see following posts as well for more) (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=584544#post584544)
What's the Appeal of the Mega-Dungeon? (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=24441) (discussion thread)
How big do I make the dungeon? How small can it be? (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=665526#post665526)

These series of advice as posted on other Sites

Dragonsfoot (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=61829)
K&K Alehouse (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=9533)
OD&D Discussion (http://odd74.proboards.com/thread/7539/advice-build-megadungeon-setting-campaign)

Answering the Original Post (Part 1)

Quote from: The Butcher;501805
The one thing that's been bugging me is, how do I go about it?
How big do I make the dungeon?
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?
What software, if any, do you recommend for dungeon map creation? I'm doing it by hand, but having simple and handy software at hand might be nice.
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?

What I would do first is get an idea of what the different levels you have encompass. It doesn't have to be complete or final. It's just to have a general idea of the type of underworld setting we are looking at.

Maybe you already have an idea for the surface. Some entry point to the dungeon, or the concept of a first level, but then, maybe not. Doesn't matter. In any case, I'd start like this:

Take a sheet of paper and draw your dungeon complex like a side-view schematics, with bands or rectangles symbolizing each level, maybe a name or a short description of the level in each rectangle, and stairs, shafts, teleporters, rivers, whatnot linking each of the levels you have. Like this:

(http://enrill.net/images/maps/ODD-sideview.jpg)

This should give you some ideas as you go. Maybe there's a lake somewhere in the vicinity some underground levels link to. Or a volcano, a chasm, some tower or fortress in the wilderness, whatnot. You'll get a feel of the type of setting, literally, you are looking at, and your vision of the whole thing will evolve from there. You'll think about it, then maybe modify the map, then maybe just scrap it and start again. It's all cool. It'll just get better as you get ideas. You become a blacksmith by beating the crap out of iron bars and all that.

OK Wait. I'm being interrupted. I'll get back to all your other questions ASAP.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 13, 2012, 01:53:06 PM
Quote from: The Butcher;501805
The one thing that's been bugging me is, how do I go about it?
How big do I make the dungeon?
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?
What software, if any, do you recommend for dungeon map creation? I'm doing it by hand, but having simple and handy software at hand might be nice.
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?

OK. I decided I'm going to build a megadungeon on this thread once I'm done with the basic advice here, to show you live how that's supposed to unfold.

So. We have a basic sideview schematics right? Then you can develop maybe a sentence or two based on the names of levels you came up with, or just come up with names now, or just wonder "what does this level do, exactly?"

You don't need to have zillions of levels. Just have a basic idea of what can be found there. Maybe anywhere from 6 to 12 levels or more. Enough for the PCs to basically depart at some point from level 1, with choices to access different levels from different access points, and go maybe deeper once more from there. You can always expand later.

The difficulty of the levels should basically reflect their depth: the deeper you go, the more dangerous it becomes. So that the players know that when they decide to go down, they might be facing greater risks. It's part of the management of danger, the tactical aspect of the game, and you place that choice into the players hands, instead of just tailoring "encounter levels" to the PCs no matter where they go. They go deep without preparing for it and got TPKd? That's because they made a tactical mistake. It's not because you were a bitch to them.

Choice. Here's a good word to keep in mind when designing a dungeon environment. When you set aside the tone, ambiance, the detail of the critters and the shape of the rooms, what it really comes down to is to create an environment the PCs can interact with meaningfully. For the interaction to be meaningful, there needs to be choices, good and bad ones, as well as clues they may or may not uncover because of their tactics, preparation, insight etc. that will help them along the way.

This means that first there are different ways for the PCs to go deeper. Different pathways, stairways and pits and ramps and teleporters and all those things, pathways that lead to different locations, maybe with some clues as to what awaits the PCs if they take this or that path. If for instance on level 1 they find bodies in a room that have been emptied of their blood all lying around a huge pit that goes very deep into the dark, they can make a few suppositions, like maybe that's a giant bats' lair, or the tomb of a vampire, or who knows? That makes things exciting. Clues. Foreshadowing. All this stuff.

The attention to choice also means that within a single level of the dungeon, there are different ways and paths for the PCs to explore. Don't make linear dungeon layouts where one room leads to the next to the next. That's boring. Create a layout where PCs can choose to go left, right, in the center, find or not the secret passage that goes around this or that way, have rooms interconnect with each other, so that the path they choose actually leads to a particular adventure for them, and not something you'd have prepared like a script for them to follow. Avoid stuff like enigmas or huge obstacles that would HAVE TO be overwhelmed to go further. Like a "bottleneck" where you have to figure out the password to get the door to the only level linked to level 1 to open. For two reasons: (1) there's no choice, the PCs have to deal with that, and if they don't want to or find it boring or whatnot, you're screwed, and (2) they might very well not figure out what you have in mind, and you should always be prepared for failure on the PCs part. Failure needs to be significant, almost a reward of its own, in the sense that it takes the adventure in different directions, instead of just stopping it dead in its tracks to have the game grind to a halt.

Oh. Don't trap them in the first level of the dungeon. Let them leave, replenish their resources, with the danger that the rooms they've cleared will be repopulated by different creatures or factions or whatnot. It's part of the dungeon's resource management too: do I keep on pushing even if I'm low on spells and three of my hirelings are dead, or do I retreat with what I've got even if I have to face more problems on this level when I come back?

Different players will be interested by different things in a dungeon. Some like tactics, resource management, overwhelming obstacles. Others like the ambiance, the decors, like to investigate the history of the place. Others are in it for the phat loot, the opportunity to kick ass and get rich. Others yet will want NPCs to interact with sometimes, some RP opportunities, will love to have problems and drama thrown at them so they can interact with the other members of the group meaningfully.

Try to provide a variety of stuff to interact with. Some fights, a variety of obstacles and creatures to deal with, a basic history or purpose to the place that can be found out if they care (doesn't need to be a novel, but something like "this was the cellar of the castle. It is now repurposed as the brigands' headquarters, and they themselves do not know the purpose of the hidden shrine in are 22b."). Maybe some monsters that can be bartered or parleyed with. Some prisoners. Orc babies if your PCs want moral dilemmas ( ;) ). If you know the players, you'll know what interests them. If not, include a bit of everything and try to detect during the first few games what will catch their interest, and what their basic MOs are. That should become obvious very fast.

Think about the ambiance of each area. Think about the five senses. What do the walls look like? What's the smell around that corner? Does the water pool in that corridor, sending reflections or making noise if the PCs walk in it? What's the feel of that altar's surface when they touch it? What's that faint wailing in the distance? Where does this draft of cold air come from? And so on.

Alright. Pause. I'll go on in a moment.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 13, 2012, 02:13:47 PM
At the start of the game, you should have your first level mapped and keyed, all layed out, as well as the levels that are linked to this first level too, in case the PCs find a passage down and decide to go deeper right away during the first session (that's usually a bad idea, but you never know). I'll come back to that part of the job once I start building a megadungeon here on this thread.

Time in a dungeon is kept using turns (in O/AD&D at least). A non-combat turn is about 10 minutes of game time, during which the PCs engage in different actions like searching along the walls, walking down a corridor, and so on. A combat turn is usually defaulted to 1 minute of real time, but that actually can vary greatly if you want to get picky about it. Count the turns and you'll be able to manage time spent in the dungeon.

I'm reaching your question about what I like in my dungeons now. I guess... I like the concept of the mythic underworld. I like the idea that the dungeon has a life of its own, and is a character of its own in the game. Maybe levels too, in a way. But that doesn't mean I don't like my dungeons and levels to feel "real" somehow. Actually, I need to visualize the environments in my head to be able to describe them to the players, so that part of the job ("what does that look/feel like? How's the light in that area? etc.) is something I keep in mind pretty much all the time.

I like dungeons that have some history to them. I think about the background of the place and its inhabitants. I think about the factions' relationships, and how they deal with each other every day when the PCs aren't looking. I include stuff like refectories and latrines and ventilation in my dungeons. It just makes the places feel more real in my mind.

I map by hand, and I would encourage you to map by hand as well. You don't need to be an artist, or even draw a straight line straight to do some mapping, and mapping on a sheet of paper, a notebook to write down your ideas as you go, using your eraser to redraw stuff as you go, keying the place wondering "what is that corner for, exactly?" is really great fun! You should totally get away from your computer, take a pencil and have a go at it. You might be surprised how fun that can be.

So avoid softwares altogether. That's my tip to you.

For the online game here on the RPG Site (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=18731) I draw everything by hand, then I scan it, and color/texture it using Photoshop. This is the latest map of the dungeon complex the PCs are exploring right now:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/dungeon/DG-A01-800-57.jpg)

And lastly, we arrive at that archeological question. Well, dungeon complexes can be burried over time and unearthed in a variety of ways. Maybe the complex is linked to existing, used buildings or ruins in the area? The classic castle or tower ruins in the wilderness. Or the entrance is somewhere within a mine complex. Or the entrance has been recently revealed by a geological disaster, an earthquake, a flood that made the terrain slide, anything like that. Maybe an entrance is by a volcano that recently errupted? Or deep at the bottom of a lake that evaporated over time? Or maybe the complex has been magically revealed, or displaced at the area it occupies now? Maybe it's a giant flying saucer that crashed yesterday from the heavens? Use your imagination. It can be anything you want it to be.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 13, 2012, 10:06:06 PM
Just so I know: is my advice useful? Do I go on with a practical example, or would I just be wasting my time?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Butcher on January 13, 2012, 10:47:36 PM
Quote from: Benoist;504669
Just so I know: is my advice useful? Do I go on with a practical example, or would I just be wasting my time?


This is solid gold. By all means, do continue! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 13, 2012, 11:25:41 PM
OK Awesome. It's just that I've been pretty busy as you know, so I wanted to know what I was doing had a useful purpose to you at least. I'll go on tomorrow. :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 14, 2012, 06:37:34 PM
Yesterday I started sketching a sideview of a megadungeon from this thread. I started by wondering what kind of wilderness it could be found in, and what would be its entrance. I was searching while looking around, and my eyes fell on the mountains surrounding this place.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/BC-mountains.jpg)

I imagined that the Bella Coola valley could make for an interesting megadungeon set up: it's a long stretching valley surrounded by mountains, basically, with two main villages and several hamlets scattered around along the river running throughout. It's fairly isolated, with the wilderness of the Central Coast being often right next door to where you live, almost literally. There are First Nations people, as well as descendants of the Norwegian settlers that came to live here in the past (http://www.bellacoolamuseum.ca/en/digital_heritage/norwegian/index.php), and of course now, a whole variety of other people, of all sorts of backgrounds and ethnicities.

It would be easy to translate this place into a medieval fantasy setting that lies at the edge of the civilized world, so I thought, why not do it?

I started by taking a blank sheet of paper and drew the outline of a mountain. I added trees and stuff, and decided there would be a lake on the other side of the mountain, the one not facing the valley, and maybe a village of degenerated folks there.. and maybe some creepy ruins at the bottom of the lake too.

There would have been mines dug there in ages past, and these mines would serve as a possible entrance to the dungeon. And some brigands in the area too, with a lair around the base of the mountains.

I start adding this stuff on my mountain sketch, and start adding levels like this. I think about the troglodyte medieval manors I saw in the Black Périgord in France a year and a half ago. There could have been some abandoned settlements there as well, with secret passages leading deep into the dungeon.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Manoir-Reignac.jpg)

I basically go on with my sketch, adding my rectangles, linking them with staircases and slanted passages and pits or wells, I don't know exactly yet. At some point, I wanted the top of the mountain to be a nest of rocks, with the nest itself being a dungeon level full of spiders and giant insects and all sorts of stuff, but I decide against it for the sake of simplicity, and cut off the top of the mountain to basically make it a very old volcano instead.

I start adding the numbers, starting with the entrances of the dungeon being numbered (1), with (1a) being the mines, (1b) being the ruins of the troglodyte habitations below, and (1c) being a ruined tower in the wilderness somewhere at the foot of the volcano itself.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Volcano-dungeon01.jpg)

Now I list all my items, and I start making up names for the levels, imagining what might be there, or just dropping a name that might change later, but that might give me some ideas for later.

Here's what I end up with:

(0a) The Hive
(0b) The Aarakocra Aviaries
(1a) The Mines of the Ash-Kadaï
(2a) The Ashen Court
(2b) Tombs of the Builders
(3) The Smoldering Theatre
(1b) The Trogodyte settlement ruins
(4) Ponds of the Fish Men
(4a) Sunken Ziggurat of Ankhepoth
(5) Temple of the Hand
(6) The Market Place
(6a) The Fortress Gate of the Duergar
(1c) The Brigands' Hideout

I have NO idea what several of these names entail, what form the level might take, whatsoever. I just came up with this stuff. But right there you can already see that this is coming together, and that there's a kind of background, hidden story that's coming out of this: there were mines here before, and habitations on the volcano's side too. There's a court, and aviaries, and fish men, and a temple too. Lots of factions there. Tomb of the Builders (a classic name of mine I put in some other dungeon before - it just popped onto the page again and I decided to just leave it as it came up) - who are the "Builders"? And then, there's this theatre place, and the market place. Spectacles, exchanges between the dungeon inhabitants? And the fortress of the duergar too. A gate... to the underdark? And the volcano itself, what role does it play in all this? I outlined the old main conduit/pipe of the volcano. I know it is dormant. Is there some kind of volcano cult here? I don't know.

I'm letting these ideas simmer a bit, and then I'm going to try to structure it a bit.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: danbuter on January 14, 2012, 06:44:11 PM
Very cool start!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 14, 2012, 07:04:47 PM
Quote from: danbuter;505023
Very cool start!

Thanks, Dan! I hope it's useful to your games, one way or the other. :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: danbuter on January 14, 2012, 07:09:50 PM
Once you have it fleshed out, you might want to submit it to Fight On!, if you are using an older edition of D&D. It definitely has that vibe.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 14, 2012, 07:25:54 PM
I had the O/AD&D paradigm in mind, yes. The Butcher mentioned S&W Complete rules, if I'm not mistaken.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Butcher on January 15, 2012, 10:52:50 AM
You are correct, and this is not only didactic and inspirational, it's awesome. Please go on. :cool:
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 18, 2012, 05:23:27 PM
Alright. So now we have an idea of what our setting might be like. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=505021&postcount=27)

Through this process, we drew a sideview of our dungeon complex (as it stands now anyway - we might modify that sideview later if the elements we come up with don't "lock" into each other neatly of if there's a piece we didn't think about that's glaringly missing with hindsight):

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Volcano-dungeon01.jpg)

And we have a key that describes the elements we have on this sideview:

(0a) The Hive
(0b) The Aarakocra Aviaries
(1a) The Mines of the Ash-Kadaï
(2a) The Ashen Court
(2b) Tombs of the Builders
(3) The Smoldering Theatre
(1b) The Trogodyte settlement ruins
(4) Ponds of the Fish Men
(4a) Sunken Ziggurat of Ankhepoth
(5) Temple of the Hand
(6) The Market Place
(6a) The Fortress Gate of the Duergar
(1c) The Brigands' Hideout

As I mentioned earlier, I mostly came up with these names out of thin air, because they sounded cool at the moment, or I just thought "hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had the duergar there?" That's the extent of my brainstorm on this, along with the consideration of the types of different entrances to the dungeon that informed what these levels might be like (the ruined tower with the brigand's hideout, the troglodyte habitations and the mines above).

Names suggest a lot of things. Nothing beats a cool name as a jumping off point. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that each and every single one of us reading that list instantly started to imagine what the levels and setting might be like, and what they might contain, just by reflex. That's our imagination and logic taking over and instinctively filling in the blanks : "Oh, the Smoldering Theatre, what's that? Is that a level filled with smoke and stuff? Why a "theatre"? That sounds interesting!"

As the guy coming up with this megadungeon, I use this exact same reflex to structure the ideas afterwards and from there, shaping these instinctive ideas like I beat the crap out of bars of raw iron to reveal the blade that's been hiding there all along. I let the whole thing simmer for a while, dip it into water and let it sit in the back of my mind for a while, so that both my imagination and my logic fit the pieces into each other and break them down for the next few days.

Maybe I'll write a bit of an idea on a sheet of paper once in a while. Maybe I'll just think "hey, that might be a cool look for the fortress of the Duergar" and move on. At some point, I will sit down in front of my notebook or computer just as I'm doing right now, gather any notes I scribbled down, along with the map and key and all that stuff, and I'll just look at the whole before writing down what I think links all this stuff, as if I had "clues" to a mystery lying in front of me that I would have to solve right then and there.

Now, I usually have two ways of going about it. I either start drawing one or several dungeon levels right away and basically make sense of it as I go, writing down what I come up with for reference in later levels in case of foreshadowing elements, or ideas that might affect further developments of the environment, OR I think of a more coherent concept right away and go on to design the dungeon levels afterwards, retroactively modifying whatever I came up with on the paper as I go into the detail of what the place looks and feels like.

The point is, that’s an organic process starting from the moment you put the pencil to the page and start to draw where ideas feed into each other and everything gets smoothed out in a way as the whole takes shape. But there’s an important warning here I have to give you: don’t over design. Don’t describe absolutely everything in your dungeon environment. It should be described and populated in a comprehensive way so you can take your notes and run the damn thing (that’s the whole point here after all), but you don’t want it to become so detailed it stifles your imagination as you run the game. There’s a point after which less is more. It can vary from DM to DM, but the point still holds true generally, I think.

For the sake of this example, I’m not going to go straight to level mapping. I’m going to flesh out my ideas a little bit first.

So I look at that key and map we got. We know we have some “builders” somewhere in the history of that place. We also have people who built the troglodyte habitations on the side of the volcano, and people who dug the mines on its side as well. Are those the “Ash-Kadaï” mentioned earlier ? Perhaps these are the same people, but then, perhaps not.

I think it’d be weird to have these habitations here and the mines just next door, and also strange that these complex habitations would have been build after the existence of the mine, so I decide that the mines were dug after the habitations had long been abandoned. Maybe they are haunted by some presence, in which case it would explain the miners, whoever they are, avoided these ruins like the plague. But then maybe they came to this place because these habitations existed, and dug inside the volcano to get to a place of power while at the same time avoiding the dangers of the haunted ruins?

The brigands would have come to inhabit the tower at the foot of the volcano much later, fairly recently, since they would still be there. The tower itself could have been built by the same people who built the troglodyte forts/habitations.

I think the Builders were a race of pre-human beings that disappeared at some point during the world’s history. They built the main levels of this dungeon which were repurposed by their new inhabitants afterwards: I’m thinking of the ashen court, the tombs, the temple and the market place at the very least. Maybe something happened to them that made them degenerate over time. Maybe that’s what the Hive and/or the ashen court are: a sort of hive of mindless husks including some original builders, but also all manners of humanoids which have been repurposed by a “Queen bee” of some kind? The Aarakocras of the levels beside it might use it as a source of sustenance. Maybe the inhabitants of the mine too (inhabitants which, I am guessing, are some sort of clan of humanoids. The Ash-Kadaï could be some sort of goblinoid clan or war party; though I’m not sure what types of creatures their numbers would count quite yet).

The Smoldering Theatre could be some sort of hemicycle, or dungeon structure that surrounds and incorporates the volcano’s main conduit. If the temple was a place of  study and communication with the higher beings living within the fiery depths of the volcano that would later have been understood as a religious place of some kind by more primitive creatures, then the theatre might have been some type of testing area. Some sort of jumping off point for the experiments born within the ancient laboratories of the temple. The name would come from faces, or alcoves –cameras maybe– surrounding the conduit. It would look to a primitive creature as a “theatre” indeed, with silent figures looking at the fumes choking the whole place, a place for great sacrifices the ancients, the Builders, performed for their gods perhaps? They would have thus repurposed the place and turned it into some kind of cult to their Elders, a cult where they mimic what they understand of the Builders, that is… not all that much.

This is evolving; time to pause for a little while. I’ll go on with this later on. Let me know what you think.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Lilaxe on January 18, 2012, 11:04:22 PM
Book marked :)

Thanks for the Facebook link, I'd have missed this otherwise. Keep up the good work.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Aos on January 19, 2012, 12:04:21 AM
groovy
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 20, 2012, 04:08:09 PM
I do not know what windings in the waste
Of those strange sea-lanes brought me home once more,
But on my porch I trembled, white with haste
To get inside and bolt the heavy door.
I had the book that told the hidden way
Across the void and through the space-hung screens
That hold the undimensioned worlds at bay,
And keep lost aeons to their own demesnes.

At last the key was mine to those vague visions
Of sunset spires and twilight woods that brood
Dim in the gulfs beyond this earth’s precisions,
Lurking as memories of infinitude.
The key was mine, but as I sat there mumbling,
The attic window shook with a faint fumbling.


Here I was, reading through one of my newly acquired books, when the idea suddenly popped up in my head. One question has been in my mind since I started building this megadungeon. It was right there when that item on the key just came up to me as I was naming the different levels of our side view of the volcano you can see above.

(2b) Tombs of the Builders

There it was, surfacing again. It's an item that I actually came up with on a previous dungeon project I played with my wife some time ago. You can read the entire writeup for that place there, on that particular thread. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17617) This is Level 2 of the Tower of Saint Makhab, the level where the adventures of Pei Lin, one of my wife's characters, started some time ago in my own Dunfalcon "Greyhawk + Yggsburgh" combo/mashup.

(http://enrill.net/images/maps/dunfalcon-500.jpg)

When I came up with it on this map here, I considered erasing it and just coming up with something else instead. But then I thought ... well, it could be something else entirely from what I had come up with for the Tower of Saint Makhab earlier. And the question of these mysterious "Builders" intrigued me. Who would have dug the first few levels of this place, exactly? I just went on with the map and questions you can read above, and let that simmer in the back of my mind. I knew this would come to me. And then, as I was taking a break from the board and reading through L'Appel de Cthulhu (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=21747)... it suddenly did.

The Builders are the Fungi from Yuggoth.

Everything fits: the isolated valley surrounded by mountains. Settlers and indigenous people living around, close by, with hints and legends circulating around about this wild places, these isolated peaks covered with dark trees, lost in the mist and snow. The digging underground searching for ores or secrets burried deep in the bowels of the earth. The sleeping volcano, and the connexion to a much deeper underworld.

The duergar keeping the gate come to mind. These could be worshippers of Tsathoggua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsathoggua), the Hyperborean creation of Clark Ashton Smith. And then this gate, this dark portal to the underworld could be more than just leading to the Underdark. It could be a clue to reach the black, lightless N'kai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%27Kai), somewhere under the blue-litten K’n-yan and the red-litten Yoth. To quote the Whisperer in Darkness, by HP Lovecraft (http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/wid.asp):

       "Do you know that Einstein is wrong, and that certain objects and forces can move with a velocity greater than that of light? With proper aid I expect to go backward and forward in time, and actually see and feel the earth of remote past and future epochs. You can’t imagine the degree to which those beings have carried science. There is nothing they can’t do with the mind and body of living organisms. I expect to visit other planets, and even other stars and galaxies. The first trip will be to Yuggoth, the nearest world fully peopled by the beings. It is a strange dark orb at the very rim of our solar system—unknown to earthly astronomers as yet. But I must have written you about this. At the proper time, you know, the beings there will direct thought-currents toward us and cause it to be discovered—or perhaps let one of their human allies give the scientists a hint.

      "There are mighty cities on Yuggoth—great tiers of terraced towers built of black stone like the specimen I tried to send you. That came from Yuggoth. The sun shines there no brighter than a star, but the beings need no light. They have other, subtler senses, and put no windows in their great houses and temples. Light even hurts and hampers and confuses them, for it does not exist at all in the black cosmos outside time and space where they came from originally. To visit Yuggoth would drive any weak man mad—yet I am going there. The black rivers of pitch that flow under those mysterious Cyclopean bridges—things built by some elder race extinct and forgotten before the things came to Yuggoth from the ultimate voids—ought to be enough to make any man a Dante or Poe if he can keep sane long enough to tell what he has seen.

      "But remember—that dark world of fungoid gardens and windowless cities isn’t really terrible. It is only to us that it would seem so. Probably this world seemed just as terrible to the beings when they first explored it in the primal age. You know they were here long before the fabulous epoch of Cthulhu was over, and remember all about sunken R’lyeh when it was above the waters. They’ve been inside the earth, too—there are openings which human beings know nothing of—some of them in these very Vermont hills—and great worlds of unknown life down there; blue-litten K’n-yan, red-litten Yoth, and black, lightless N’kai. It’s from N’kai that frightful Tsathoggua came—you know, the amorphous, toad-like god-creature mentioned in the Pnakotic Manuscripts and the Necronomicon and the Commoriom myth-cycle preserved by the Atlantean high-priest Klarkash-Ton."


"There are openings humans know nothing of, and great worlds of unknown life down there," and the Fungi of Yuggoth have known them, built them, and kept them for eons at a time. This simple revelation of the identity of these mysterious builders opens so many doors in our dungeon design, it is kind of overwhelming at first.

The Hive. Maybe there are degenerated Fungi living there, maybe stealing some husks, some humanoid bodies from the creatures that venture in the caves and pits of this volcano. They might have regressed, separated for ages from their world, and reverted to this primal fungoid race serving a Queen Fungus, a monstrous being hidden in the dark levels above the mines. They must secrete something that the Aarakocras might want. Are they on friendly terms with each other, or do the avian creatures sneak into the hive, or connect with it through their own tunnels to use the Fungi's production like we do with our own bees? What if the Aarakocra "worshipped" the "Queen bee" herself? They could be the agents of the degenerated Mi-Go in the outside world. Their eyes over the heights of the nearby mountains, in a way.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/pictures/Fungi-from-Yuggoth.png)

What about the Fish Men close to the Ziggurat of Ankhepoth? These could be a remnant of a Dagon cult. Maybe these are the descendants of the men that discovered the remnants of a much older presence of Deep Ones around this area? Would that be a clue as to the manner in which the Fungi degenerated? Does it date all the way back to the wars of the Fungi and Cthulhu?

If the Hive is the location of a swarn of degenerated Fungi inhabiting corpses and, for a few, flying around in the darkness to protect their Queen, then maybe the Tombs of the Builders have some real Fungi in cryostasis or something. Undead Fungi maybe? Could these beings have some heads severed from various creature types dating back to the prediluvian times when they were entombed lying around? Maybe these could have seized control of the area, one way or the other?

I'm pretty sure the Ashen Court will be the dwelling place of the leaders of the Ash-Kadaï that roam within the abandoned galleries of the mines above. But what about the troglodyte habitations which predated the construction of the mines? Could there have been a lord and his retinue living here secluded from the world, obsessed by the secrets the fiery mountain might reveal to him, searching for a "truth" that cursed him forever, thus haunting this place to make it this creepy ruin everyone, including the miners that came afterwards, wanted to avoid at all costs?

It seems to me obvious that the Smoldering Theatre, the Temple of the Hand and the Market Place were once the core of the Mi-Go's hideout. The lair of the Bandit is much more recent, and was connected to the Market Place at some point. Now it's an isolated part of the complex. Maybe connected to the settlements on the cliff's side above, I do not know yet. I kind of like the idea of a foreshadowing level completely isolated from the others there.

Hm. More food for thought there. Let's stop right here and let that whole thing stew for a little bit. It's getting there. We have a much more precise idea of where we are going with this now.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 20, 2012, 04:37:11 PM
Quote from: Lilaxe;506794
Book marked :)

Thanks for the Facebook link, I'd have missed this otherwise. Keep up the good work.


Quote from: Aos;506799
groovy


Thanks for the feedback guys! Hope that proves useful, or inspirational at least!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on January 20, 2012, 04:43:29 PM
Very cool stuff Benoist.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Butcher on January 20, 2012, 05:20:33 PM
Whoa, that's great stuff right there. Let's Lovecraft up this bitch!

Though all the merit is Benoist's, I can't help but feel happy that I've started this thread. :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Good Assyrian on January 20, 2012, 05:21:56 PM
Great insight, Benoist!  Once you said it, it clicked for me too.  Kinda like a "you got your chocolate in my peanut butter" moment.  Two great tastes that taste great together!  :)

-TGA
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 20, 2012, 05:54:10 PM
Glad you like it, guys! I owe some thanks to the Butcher for starting this thread in the first place. And indeed, these are two flavors that just work great together. HP Lovecraft and August Derleth are mentioned in Appendix N of the DMG, mind you, and we know the writing relationship that existed between RE Howard, mentioned as well in Appendix N, and HPL. So it's a part of AD&D's heritage, clearly.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 20, 2012, 06:11:24 PM
Good stuff - liked the Mi - Go reference. I'd say that for classically understood DnD, it's rather Derleth, Lumley and Howard (& of course his great two continuators, de Camp & Carter). Lovecraft itself'd make for a rather depressing DM imo.

"You go left, you will go insane with the terrible knowledge of cosmic truth. You go right, you will be eaten by a Shoggoth."

Btw - how do you mark such stuff as stairs, in a relatively small dungeon? I just draw a few horizontal lines above each other (not so long that they connect to the "walls), and an arrow next to those lines - up when they go up, and down when the stairs are supposed to go down. Looks like a "corridor", which allows for easier drawing, but allows me to remember where the stairs are.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: MadaX on January 20, 2012, 06:13:53 PM
I've been lurking for a long while now and I feel I must break my silence to thank you for your posts so far on this. I'm working on getting my first real game happening and these posts have been really helpful & inspiring.

Anyway, back to my den of lurking. :D
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 20, 2012, 08:28:34 PM
Quote from: MadaX;507389
I've been lurking for a long while now and I feel I must break my silence to thank you for your posts so far on this. I'm working on getting my first real game happening and these posts have been really helpful & inspiring.

Anyway, back to my den of lurking. :D


By all means, stick around! :)

Thanks for delurking in any case. I'm really glad this is useful for your game.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 20, 2012, 08:35:16 PM
Rincewind. About the stairs. If you are talking about a symbol to locate stairs in a dungeon level, check out the very first link in my last brainstorm post here, the one that links to Level 2 of St. Makhab. There's a map there that shows some stairs.

We haven't reached the design of individual levels here yet, but that will come.

If you mean for the side view, just stick with the symbols shown on page 3 of this thread.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Rincewind1 on January 20, 2012, 08:40:28 PM
Quote from: Benoist;507416
Rincewind. About the stairs. If you are talking about a symbol to locate stairs in a dungeon level, check out the very first link in my last brainstorm post here, the one that links to Level 2 of St. Makhab. There's a map there that shows some stairs.

We haven't reached the design of individual levels here yet, but that will come.

If you mean for the side view, just stick with the symbols shown on page 3 of this thread.

Oh, I meant it mostly in an aspect "I am a cheap bugger and I try to keep my dungeon, if it's small, on one page". I did mean the individual design, yep.

Found the link - yup, just as I thought. I've not really drawn any dungeons for ages, so pardon my foolishness.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Evil_Sagan on January 21, 2012, 01:13:45 AM
Benoist, thank you so much for this wonderful example of your dungeon building process. I'm only now about to run my first AD&D game, and I wanted to recreate the megadungeon experience that I had heard so much about. I was feeling a bit lost on how to even begin, so this thread has been an incredible resource. I look forward to more insight in the future!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 21, 2012, 09:24:29 AM
I'm really glad this is useful to you guys! Thanks for registering to let me know, Evil Sagan. Means a lot to me. If you have any question popping up you want answered or whatnot, don't hesitate! Cheerio! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Aos on January 22, 2012, 07:26:29 PM
Quote from: Benoist;504476
Oh. Don't trap them in the first level of the dungeon. Let them leave, replenish their resources, with the danger that the rooms they've cleared will be repopulated by different creatures or factions or whatnot. It's part of the dungeon's resource management too: do I keep on pushing even if I'm low on spells and three of my hirelings are dead, or do I retreat with what I've got even if I have to face more problems on this level when I come back?

I think it's okay to trap them on the first level. A safe way in and out of the complex is a treasure and seeking one out can provide a different kind of exploratory impetus- especially for a fucked up and running out of resources group.






Something else: Gadgets- I like to put crazy machines and apparatus in my dungeon. Players like figuring out how things work-even if it doesn't provide any other reward beyond the actual activity itself. However, telporters and magical mech suits are awesome too.

Furthermore, mechanisms, depending on their purpose can definitely tell you something about the history/former purpose of area and/or the complex where they were found.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 22, 2012, 07:39:01 PM
Quote from: Aos;507848
I think it's okay to trap them on the first level. A safe way in and out of the complex is a treasure and seeking one out can provide a different kind of exploratory impetus- especially for a fucked up and running out of resources group.

It will be okay on occasion, with the right players in mind. I don't think I would use it as a default game play though. I guess the main question is how the players will react to something like this - will they feel like they are being railroaded or pushed into a particular play direction by being trapped on the level, or will they use this as a welcome impetus to do more? That'll vary I think.

My point really was that the opportunity to go back and forth, in and out of the dungeon is part of the resource management of the game.

Quote from: Aos;507848
Something else: Gadgets- I like to put crazy machines and apparatus in my dungeon. Players like figuring out how things work-even if it doesn't provide any other reward beyond the actual activity itself. However, telporters and magical mech suits are awesome too.

Furthermore, mechanisms, depending on their purpose can definitely tell you something about the history/former purpose of area and/or the complex where they were found.

That's true IME as well. Excellent tip.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Aos on January 22, 2012, 07:42:47 PM
Quote from: Benoist;507851


My point really was that the opportunity to go back and forth, in and out of the dungeon is part of the resource management of the game.



.


Sure, but it can be replaced with foraging, which can provide an equally interesting experience. (Anyway, the Halls of the Hidden Prince have no exit on level 1).

This thread should maybe be stickied and maybe provided with a list of links to on site dungeon resources.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 22, 2012, 07:48:57 PM
Quote from: Aos;507852
Sure, but it can be replaced with foraging, which can provide an equally interesting experience. (Anyway, the Halls of the Hidden Prince have no exit on level 1).

I did something similar in that Level 2 of St. Makhab (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17617) was played as a reverse dungeon to start the campaign. The PC, Pei Lin, woke up after being victim of a trap that wiped out her memory and the player started the game at that point, not knowing how she got there at all and retracing the steps her other, full self had followed up to that point.

Quote from: Aos;507852
This thread should maybe be stickied and maybe provided with a list of links to on site dungeon resources.

Not sure this should be stickied, but we could have a Dungeon Design resource thread on the design and development board that would be stickied with all the threads linked in one place and short associated descriptions maybe?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Aos on January 22, 2012, 07:51:15 PM
yeah, that will do it.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Elfdart on January 24, 2012, 10:29:02 PM
For me, megadungeons are only different from the other kinds in scale, so my advice on megadungeons is more or less the same as for smaller ones.

First I start with the structure itself, asking and answering these questions:

Is it a castle, a temple, a tomb, catacombs, caves, all of the above, none of the above?

Who built it and why?

How old is it?

How many times has this piece of real estate changed hands? Who are the other owners? When and how did they get it? When and how did they lose it?

Who holds it now? When and how did they get it?

Then I do a rough sketch of the dungeon's exterior and the surrounding countryside. If I can find good photos from Google, I'll use those for the latter.

When that's done I pick monsters, traps and treasure and fit it within the dungeon as best I can. Sometimes things don't quite fit, which is why I usually prefer ruins because I have a built-in rationalization for say, getting rid of a section of castle wall ("The orcs stormed the castle after breaching the east wall, slaughtering everyone inside and taking over not only the stronghold itself, but the courtyard and bloody field outside."). If more than one monster type inhabits the dungeon, you should note how the different types interact.

Here's one I started, but never got around to finishing: (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26587&p=503920)

Quote
EXAMPLE: I once created a megadungeon (though I didn't set out to) that was an enormous ruined tower (like a lighthouse) on an island across from a cliff overlooking the sea [I ]. I wanted this thing to be HUGE: 180' by 180', 10 levels above ground and 10 below ground. To rationalize how big it was, I decided it was created by giants back when they ruled the land and sea [II]. I did a very rough diagram of the tower and surrounding area -just squares and ovals on a piece of paper, with a pair of squiggly lines marking the beach and water, plus two more showing where the cliff was located. I also noted where the waterline would be at high and low tides, since the tower could only be reached on foot during low tide, when a causeway was exposed. The levels above ground were listed as 1-10 in ascending order, and A-J in descending order underground.

Deciding on what to include [III] is always the difficult part. Do you really care if the encounters mesh together or make sense? At this point, I make a list of monsters, encounters, traps and treasure that I'd like to include, and how many (or how much) of each I want (when in doubt, I roll dice). I made my list and once I decided on what to include, a lot of the scenario began to write itself as I explained WHY things were placed as they were:

The tower was once the stronghold of a highly advanced (by D&D standards) group of giants centuries ago. For some reason (angered the gods perhaps?) the place received a powerful smiting, with gaping holes ripped through the granite walls and ceilings and floors, as all the inhabitants killed (or were they?). Since then it has become a lair for some of the "survivors" of the destruction, as well as scavengers and opportunists who use the Tower as a lair, or are just passing through. Only the most foolhardy or desperate would dare enter...

Lvl 1 -marine trolls who washed in with the tide and are waiting for the next high tide to go back to sea (this was where common giants lived)
Lvl 2 -a makeshift dock used by 3 pirate ships at high tide: quarters and storage for the pirates (this was once the giants' Great Hall and is now a huge warehouse)
Lvl 3 -the noble apartments of the giant lords: the pirates and half-orcs deal with each other at the stairwell only, since undead giants and other horrors lurk in the rest of this level
Lvl 4 -the lair of a tribe of half-orcs, plus the dragonnels and wyverns they have tamed as mounts. This level has a pair of gaping holes in the wall that allow the creatures to take flight from inside the tower
Lvl 5 -more of the same, plus a rope bridge (200 yards long) connecting the tower to the cliff
Lvl 6 -empty nomansland: just the charred corpses of the dead -the result of a battle between the half-orcs and the necromancer's henchmen
Lvl 7 -a fiendish necromancer and his retinue, who used various means of flying (magic and mounts) to enter this level through a breach in the wall, in search of treasure
Lvl 8 -an enormous cistern full of almost 648,000 cubic feet (>4,800,000 gallons) of rainwater, as well as pipes to dispense it throughout the tower
Lvl 9 -two dormant iron golems who used to operate the beacon, the boilers and waterworks -they will attack any intruders unless...
Lvl 10 -a huge dragon that sleeps here at night, leaving at dawn to go hunting and returning at dusk to sleep off its meal

These are just the main encounters. The marine trolls might be trying to steal pearls from a giant clam. The pirates might have hostages held for ransom. There might be any number of molds, oozes, puddings and slimes as well as the other standard vermin in dungeons. There is almost no limit to what you could include. If it doesn't fit, you always have the option of literally creating holes in the walls (like I did) to allow entry and exit. If you don't feel like shoehorning something into the dungeon, then you can just cross it off your list. Keep in mind: this only describes what's ABOVE ground. Underground, you can always create side passages, secret corridors if you need to make room for more monsters and traps.

Once you've placed everything, explaining why one creature is here and another one there [IV] is fairly easy, even without throwing SoD in the shredder.

Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 30, 2012, 05:32:22 PM
Now that we have figured out who the Builders are, (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=507344#post507344) the pieces are starting to fall into place. We have a much better understanding of what the dangers of the place and the surrounding area might entail. Now let’s start thinking about the way this is going to shape our setting and levels in the megadungeon.

The Setting

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Borgund-stave-church.jpg)
A Viking temple in the Valley

We know we have a river stretching for miles between two ranges of mountains. This river leads into the sea, about a league (a little less than four miles) away from our volcano and the hamlet in the valley not far from it. There is a harbour by the sea, one of the main communities of the area really, and another village about 16 miles away from the shore in the valley (which we are going to tentatively name Hagensburg, named after the Viking chief that led his people into the area).

The closer you are from the shore, the more you will find descendants from the original native population of the area. These will be based on the First Nations of the Central Coast whose culture and livelihoods are based on fishing, with the Salmon being one of the central animals of their traditional tales and dances. They are a proud people, and they know far more about the area than the Vikings really do. They have a natural reluctance to share their wisdom, however, since their stories and customs are their most prized possessions.

In addition to these two particular ethnic groups, we have other tribes living on the islands off the Coast, and some descendants of a proto-Celtic people who settled in the area prior to the Vikings’ arrival. These are few and far between. They may be the descendants of the people who built the troglodyte habitations on the Volcano’s face we talked about earlier.

The Vikings live on farming the land and hunting around the valley. They run into regular trouble with the wild life of the area, much more so than the natives ever do (it is part of their heritage to know the way of the land and become part of it, in a way, whereas the Vikings settle, plant crops where they can get it to grow, use the lumber where they can find it etc. as the civilized folk are used to do in similar circumstances).

The PCs might have been born in the area, or they arrived recently (because of rumors about treasure in the area, dangers for the settlers and promises to earn a living as hunters and tamers of the wild, because they came to the harbour recently, etc.). They will find no shortage of things to do, from finding people who have lost their way in the wild, to attacks of humanoids on the nearby settlements, to obviously rumours concerning the megadungeon itself, its mines, the troglodyte settlements, the ruins one can find nearby, and so on (more about these rumours later).

The Wilderness

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/BC-wilderness.jpg)

The Wilderness is immediately around the valley itself. It’s all around the settlements and trails, just next to the river running throughout the area. Unless they are clearly following the river, various trails present in the valley, or following some clear indications based on the landmarks of the area, they can get lost really quickly (with a chance between 50% and 70% depending on the particulars of the terrain and elevation. See S&W Complete p. 83 for that). In case a random encounter occurs (1 in 6 per turn of exploration, or per game rules you are using), roll on the Cold Wilderness Areas tables (AD&D MM2 p.135) depending on the exact type of terrain the PCs are treading at the moment.

If you want a sample typical encounters, the PCs could meet black bears, grizzly bears, elks, wolves, winter wolves, wild boars, giant eagles, wyverns, hostile humanoids (goblin, hobgoblin, orc, ogres, hill and frost giants), friendly humanoids (including elves, dwarves, gnomes, Viking or native hunting parties, another group of adventurers, woodland’s men, etc.), dragons (white 1-3, green 4, black 5, red 6), and more, not to mention the aarakocras flying around the area of the volcano and of course, the degenerate fungi haunting the flanks of the mountain at night.

To put it bluntly, traveling around the area without knowing what you are doing is not an absolutely excellent idea. Better to be prepared, and get a clear idea of what it is you are looking for before leaving the trails in the valley.

The Dungeon

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Volcano-dg-sublevels.jpg)

Assuming you either do not start at the PCs’ arrival in the area or that they make it to the flanks of the mountain/volcano some time during the first session, we need to start thinking about the dungeon’s population, and map at least the different entrance levels to be ready for their exploration of the place.

It means that the levels marked red on this map should be ready by the first session at least, having the pink levels ready as well being a huge plus for us.

Based on the way our megadungeon is coming together, I think it’d be neat to have a possibility to travel underground from the Bandits’ hideout (1c) to the Troglodyte ruins (1b) through a series of tunnels, maybe with a few set pieces along the way.

Note also that the connection between the hideout (1c) and the marketplace (6) has collapsed some time ago (It’d be crazy for the PCs to get there at low levels. If they really want to, they could hire the help to dig through the rubble. We should allow them to, and provide them with ample warning if they decide to keep exploring in that direction: this is very dangerous territory for them at this level. Beware).

Access to the tunnel/connection between the troglodyte ruins (1b) and the Temple of the Hand could be linked to some type of puzzle or riddle, something having to do with the sorcerers who occupied the place previously. This could be figured out by the PCs early on, but would more likely provide an obstacle to them until they can figure it out using clues we would plant on different levels of the dungeon, for instance in the Tomb (2b) if the riddle has something to do with the technology of the Fungi. Some of the sorcerers could have been abducted to the Hive (0a) as well. There are different possibilities. No need to take a decision right away.

The Aviaries (0b) have two connections to the lower levels. The connection to the mines (1a) would be hard to use, probably some sort of ventilation shaft, where the PCs would have to provide all the different components to make their ascension secure if they so wish. The connection to the Tomb (2b) would be easier, maybe still functional, or hidden during all this time. Maybe the stairs linking the Aviaries to the mines have collapsed as well. None of these obstacles would be insurmountable to the well-organized PCs (they shouldn’t be), but this gives us an idea of our map flow and the potential paths of exploration the PCs might take.

The point is, there must be a whole lot of different ways for the PCs to explore the place however they want, but that doesn’t mean that all ways must be equally easy or accessible. Some of them are more dangerous than the others. There are easy ways to get from point A to point B, and hard ways. Choices, choices, choices.

These elements tie into the resource management of the game. Do we keep digging even though the magic user ran out of spells a while back? Are you sure you want to set up camp by that well here? How do we bring back all that gold from this level up to that one? And so on, so forth.

The levels themselves must provide variety and choices to the exploring PCs. If you go from room to room in a linear succession with the exact same critters populating each of the areas with maybe the boss fight at the end, this is boring, for one thing, and this is playing against the assumptions of the game, second.

Part of the interesting idea behind Vancian memorization for instance is that not all spells are useful all the time, so you have to manage what you want to memorize for this or that particular task, whenever that’s relevant. If you fill up rooms with clouds of goblins, and only goblins, you shouldn’t be surprised if the MU player just blasts through them with fireballs and acid arrows. It’s just that it’s the most useful spell for the job, always. So we must vary the types of threats and populations within the levels themselves, so the game itself remains enticing, with the decision-making process being a part of the equation that leads the PCs to victory or failure.

I wrote down a few notes about my different levels already. More like just bits of sentences and lists. Ideas I will flesh out later as I map the levels themselves. For instance, for the Mines (level 1a) I have:

Mines. Some Ash Kadaï. Long mine corridors. Web. Room clusters and safe areas here and there. Rats/flooded area. Elevator destroyed. Some ‘zombies’. Mi-Go possessed. Carts. Rails. Access to Tome of the Builders (2b). Up Aviaries. Shaft to Ashen Court (2a). Repaired makeshift elevator? Yeti lairs by the entrance? Multiple entrances on the mountain. Some Ash Kadaï want to fight and clean up the level. Others want to stay down at the Ashen Court. Chief is indecisive or dead. Hazards and traps. Traps of the Ash-K. Strings with bells. Hollowed bones. Whistles. Arrows and boulders.

For the Troglodyte ruins I have:

Magical, undead level. Skeletons, zombies, scavengers. Predator found refuge near the surface. Random hauntings. The deeper you go, the creepier and darker it becomes. Up to the seal. Ruins. Abandoned rooms. Traps. Offerings from the Ash-K who are afraid of the place and want to appease its Evil. Bones disturbed are reset after a time. Rooms too. Cursed to repeat for eternity. Pantomime.

And for the Bandit hideout:

Bandit hideout. Victims abducted. Bandit ‘King’ and his court. Hounds he throws food at. Trained rodents. Group of Hobgoblin mercenaries. Mud. Giant Snake pit. Shoddy workshop with disassembled carts, teeth taken out of skulls. Toy constructs built by alchemist to entertain. Alchemist prisoner too? Prisoner for too long.

Just as before when I drew the side-view map of our dungeon and named its levels, I have no idea what some of this stuff might mean yet. I’m just trying to visualize the place and seeing what parts or ambiances or particular rooms or situations might be there.

The same way I did with the map before hand, I let these ideas simmer a bit. Then, when I feel like it, I will actually look for models for the mines and get down to business mapping the level.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Werekoala on February 02, 2012, 04:28:49 PM
That does it, Imma gonna build me one of these suckers too. I've been non-creative for too long.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on February 02, 2012, 04:37:37 PM
Quote from: Werekoala;511579
That does it, Imma gonna build me one of these suckers too. I've been non-creative for too long.


That just made my day! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Werekoala on February 02, 2012, 04:39:45 PM
Just hope I can measure up, you've set the bar pretty high. Thankfully I've been using pics for years in my games, so I have a huge selection of art and photos to choose from.

*cracks knuckles*

Think I'll go through them when I get home and see what speaks ta me.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on February 02, 2012, 04:50:48 PM
More examples means more ways for people to get inspired, get to the game table and roll some dice. It's win-win!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Werekoala on February 02, 2012, 04:58:14 PM
Maybe time to put my college Geology classes to work - I've always wanted to do a truly grand cavern-based dungeon instead of something artificial, although artifical elements are certainly possible.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on February 02, 2012, 05:03:28 PM
Quote from: Werekoala;511589
Maybe time to put my college Geology classes to work - I've always wanted to do a truly grand cavern-based dungeon instead of something artificial, although artifical elements are certainly possible.

Could be interesting! Caverns take so many shapes and forms, include so many things, and can exist in pretty much any sort of climate or terrain, for that matter. Could be part of some rock formations in the middle of a shifting swamp, or in the middle of some desertic place, or on some weird plane or whatnot?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Werekoala on February 02, 2012, 05:48:15 PM
Yup - I'll post my own thread once I have some stuff to put up - don't wanna clutter up this awesomness.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on February 02, 2012, 06:21:28 PM
Quote from: Werekoala;511608
Yup - I'll post my own thread once I have some stuff to put up - don't wanna clutter up this awesomness.

OK cool. Can't wait to see what you come up with. :)

(Thanks for the compliment, too. I don't mean to give you the cold shoulder)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on February 17, 2012, 03:58:27 PM
Link to our volcano side-view map (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Volcano-dungeon01.jpg) to make sense of what follows.

At first, I started looking for models of mines I could use to model level (1a) of our megadungeon, but then, not finding anything particularly enticing (a few pictures and side-views here and there, but nothing really conclusive at the moment), my attention went back to the Bandit hideout level (1c).

I know this is a level that might be somewhat self-contained, maybe including a few mysteries like an inactive teleporter or two, some haunted passages to level (1b) probably, and for sure a tunnel linking it to level (6), the Market Place, which collapsed some time ago and that the player could possibly dig through if they so choose (which would be far from being an optimum choice, since the level it links to would be far more dangerous than anything they’d meet in the hideout).

I took back my puzzling notes on the Bandit Hideout and added some more (the grey part is what I had until a few days ago, followed by what I added afterwards).

Bandit hideout. Victims abducted. Bandit ‘King’ and his court. Hounds he throws food at. Trained rodents. Group of Hobgoblin mercenaries. Mud. Giant Snake pit. Shoddy workshop with disassembled carts, teeth taken out of skulls. Toy constructs built by alchemist to entertain. Alchemist prisoner too? Prisoner for too long. Remains of Mi-Go tech. Alchemist experiments with bits of knowledge he does not understand. Horror creations. Head jars malfunctioning. Abductions to fuel the experiments in raw materials. Room with fusioned blob thing. Oozes of memory, crystals? Cave system. Crystal book. Chasm/ropes? Trying to create slaves the way the Mi-Go did, but experiments are far from satisfyingly successful. Doesn’t really know how or why.

Now, these are the partial elements coming to my mind as I’m trying to visualize the environment. I see bits of situations or rooms and I just think about them, write down, and let it stew for a while. I might as well check out some ideas or material this makes me think of, like in this instance, To Snare the Pale Prince and Kings in Darkness, both Elric stories, which for some reason this idea of the "King of Bandits" made me think of, or the obvious HP Lovecraft influences with the Mi Go, or other bits and pieces of ambiance or monsters from various Hellboy comics, which I'm reading right now, and Dracula which is always in the back of my mind somewhere. This is going to get organized in our next step here, as we think about our level’s layout and put it down on paper before mapping the whole thing itself.

One doesn’t really need to think thoroughly about dungeon layout before actually putting pen to graph paper. It’s something that you have to keep in mind for the reasons we outlined earlier (which are further explained in Melan’s excellent breakdown of dungeon levels (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=21794) from various published modules, as well as the advice from Justin Alexander entitled "Jaquaying the Dungeon (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon)," both of which being excellent reads for the dungeon designer in all of us), but this can be put into action as you draw the map without thinking too much of the layout before hand.

Here, I’m going to give the layout a bit more thought before I draw the map. What I do is to basically organize my elements into rough areas on a diagram that represents my level, with the different connections between the different parts of the layout. I’m thinking here in particular about the way these elements are situated next to each other for the place to make a minimum of sense to me, about the different entrances and exits to the level and how they are positioned on the map, as well as the way each element is linked to each other, ensuring, among other things, that I do not have any areas that would have to be explored, or could not be avoided in any way, for the reasons previously mentioned.

What you get is something looking a bit like this:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Megadungeon-L-1c-d.jpg)

The boxes on this diagram represent rough areas of the complex, maybe clusters of rooms joined to each other thematically at least. The court for instance could have an audience chamber, the quarters of the king of the bandits (marked ‘king’ on the map), some sort of pit to enjoy the giant snake devouring some visitors in the manner of Jabba the Hut, these kinds of things. It’s not a final drawing by any means. It’s just meant to give us an idea of where it is we’re going as we draw our map, and what each area or cluster might be about as we do so.

We see the different lines linking our areas which are like main passage-ways, connections, corridors maybe, and so on. The dashes link different areas through streams of water or tunnels between different pits and the like. We can also see our five different main entrances (which I just came up with, and would mean we would need some type of spacial representation of the immediate surroundings around the tower ruins to make sense of them meaningfully as the players explore the area,  which means a secondary, surface map later on).

This basically starts us on the way to structure our ideas, might bring some other ideas enriching the whole (the location of the Snake Pit for instance just gave me the idea of connecting it to the Court with the Jabba the Hut type pit maybe, which then led to other pits being linked underground as well), so that in the end, when we put pen to paper, we have a much better idea where it is we are going with this layout.

Note that the fact this diagram looks like what a chart showing relationships between factions or NPCs in a game setting might look like, or how the links between various clues or elements in an investigation scenario might be organized prior to play, is no coincidence at all, here. Fundamentally, there is no difference between Melan’s analysis of dungeon layouts and Justin Alexander talking to us about the Three Clue Rule: (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1118/roleplaying-games/three-clue-rule) it’s all about managing the players' choices, not by trying to trap them into a prefabricated suit of rooms or clues or events, but by giving them even more choices and alternative courses which you then manage on an action-reaction basis which forms the core of the game itself, rather than trying to work the group towards a predefined outcome that would need to occur one way or the other for the game to be remotely satisfying once played.

Also note that the process can be repeated at the macro and micro level of our level (and indeed dungeon) design, the particular areas of the diagram in their actual layout repeating the same principles of non-linearity. If you take this to its natural extreme, what you end up with is a map looking like this:

(http://enrill.net/images/maps/Greyhawk_Level_1_Detail-600.jpg)

Which is one of the first levels of Castle Greyhawk, taken and magnified from this original picture of Gary Gygax as he was running OD&D for the ENWorld moderators a few years prior to his passing:

(http://enrill.net/images/photos/GygaxGame-800.jpg)

Here's a link to the full thread discussing this picture and map over at Knights & Knaves. (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6981)

Now, as I started drawing the level itself, I didn’t want for it to look like this. I wanted it to have a more organic structure. More realism if you will (Gary would beat me on the head if he knew I was using that particular expression).

I look around for various layouts I like, kind of like models for inspiration. I notice Weem’s Caves of Chaos map (http://www.theweem.com/2012/02/01/caves-of-chaos-reimagined-by-weem/), which is pretty cool in and of itself (and usable for online gaming at high resolution, hint hint). There’s also some of PatW’s layouts on Knights & Knaves which I like a lot, aesthetically, like this one (http://henchmanabuse.blogspot.com/2010/10/level-1-map.html) and that one (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7766), in particular. That’s basically the material you can see on that brew picture I took for fun a few days ago (along with the uncompleted diagram reproduced above):

(http://enrill.net/images/photos/Brew-dnd-02.jpg)

And now we’re ready to map. I’m going to talk about a few basic considerations to keep in mind as far as the content of the rooms, the enemies, the treasure, etc are concerned next time, and we’ll start seeing the level coming together bit by bit, hopefully.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Saladman on February 23, 2012, 02:01:49 AM
Bookmarked!  This is great stuff, and a challenge to me to up my game.

But, humble as they are in comparison, I have a few additional thoughts for the OP.

Quote from: The Butcher;501805

How many levels should I have ready at session #1?
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?
...
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?
...
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how the fuck do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?


You can start with only the first level completely done if you have a map and a themed encounter table ready for whatever connects.  That way if the PCs do press on, you can check for populated/empty rooms and what's in them as they go, without having it be a totally random roll out of the monster manual.  Your themed level table may double as the random encounter table at first, but to be thorough I revise it for my "real" random encounter table after I finish properly.  The drawback is this can conflict with providing meaningful choices, i.e. a blind choice of left or right as opposed to the smell of compost coming from the left and faint tapping echoes from the right.  So don't use it as an excuse not to finish levels eventually, but for myself I'd never start a game if I waited until I'd prepped properly.

For player motivation for mega-dungeons I like a gold-as-xp rule, or at the very least xp for spent gold or carousing.  You may already be there since you said old school, but since I hadn't seen it called out it's worth mentioning.  Arbitrary as it is, it really works for this kind of game.

I like my dungeons "straight" close to the surface, getting weirder as you go deeper or farther in.

Entire cities may get built underground on purpose.  Petra's been mentioned; also check out the underground city of Derinkuyu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_Underground_City) (side map (http://i.pbase.com/u38/chuy/large/25029062.MapofDerinkayuUndergroundCity.jpg), isometric overview (http://www.quiteguide.com/?&Bid=1140256&/Derinkuyu)).  With a good enough map that's a game-able dungeon straight up.  Humans built that in the real world, and we don't even have darkvision or stonesense.  Also check out qanats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quanat), underground irrigation/cooling systems that blow sewers away as an excuse for dungeons underneath functional surface cities.  (The side view there is simple, but they could get complex.)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on February 23, 2012, 12:41:07 PM
Cool post. I'm going to share what I think about elements of level design like creatures and treasure placements pretty soon.

The XP for GP component of O/AD&D is something I closely associate with the feel of the game, now, because it has a significant impact on the way the exploration plays afterwards. About 2/3 of your XPs might come from treasure (on average) under this paradigm, as opposed to bashing monsters on the head, which leads to an adaptation to the resulting environment on the part of the smart player: the goal becomes to avoid needless fights, sneak around as necessary, get to the treasure without confrontations when possible, which means you need to scout, seize your opponent, understand the dynamics of the place to get the most reward out of it. It enhances the importance of tactical choices on the part of the players, since confrontations are not the automatic answers for your character to level up (or die).

Likewise, the chirurgical awards of XP for objectives fulfilled in the dungeon does help (objectives predetermined by the smart player, not the DM - see AD&D PH p. 101+).

Love those links you added at the end of your posts, Saladman. Very inspiring stuff!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on February 23, 2012, 06:50:15 PM
We’ve talked quite a bit about the importance of providing meaningful choices to the players, so that they can manage their exploration however they want, they can get invested in their own successes or failures, and can own the game while you are basically role playing the environment and playing an action-reaction game based on the environment you build prior to the game.

We do not want linear paths, or bottlenecks the PCs would have to go through, or would have to confront to get the adventure going. Instead the path itself is the adventure. Their choices, whether they take left or right, whether they camp here or there, confront this group of creature or sneak past them, parley with that vanquished opponent or choose to slaughter everyone down to the last henchman, all these things have an impact on the way the game unfolds, including, perhaps most importantly, the end game itself, whatever it might become as a natural result of play.

This doesn’t mean you are just running some kind of magical tea party and haven’t prepared for whatever the players might throw at you. One of your roles as DM is to come up with the environment and challenge the players, keep them on their toes, allow them to make these meaningful choices we just talked about, and have the world evolve as a result of the input they are bringing to the game milieu.

This is why our level diagram took the shape it did, with its loops and different paths of exploration between our would-be clusters of rooms: to enable these choices, rather than hamper them.

Now, as we map the first areas of our Bandit Level, it’s good to have a few other ideas derived from the same principle, that variety is the spice of life, and what provides meaningful tactical choices to our players, as it comes to the particulars of those areas themselves. I’m reminded of some thoughts Papers & Paychecks had on this particular subject (http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7626) over a period of time that I found extremely pertinent and useful, so I’m going to paraphrase quite a bit here as I put this thing together.

There should be a variety of battle fields and tactical environments. This means that some rooms are small, and others are huge and hard to defend. Some have multiple entrances and exits, others don’t. Some rooms are clustered together, and others are not. The players have to adapt to circumstances, have to keep thinking tactically on their feet to not lose ground, to keep loot they’ve acquired, to secure their camps and fallback positions, and so on, so forth.

The content of said rooms must itself vary. No room after room of orcs guarding the same-sized pies over and over again. Some of the rooms, lots of rooms actually, must remain tactically empty. This makes the rooms that are not empty the hot spots of the exploration, with chases, moving combat positions, control of the battlefield being an asset for the players thinking on their feet, and a plague to those who don’t. The players can manage their discoveries. They’re not interrupted all the time because of the next monster in the next room. They can plan and organize themselves. They can fortify areas, build camps and even work on zones of influences they control in the dungeon.

If you want an idea of the proportions being used in a classic dungeon layout like this, I’d say that about half to three quarters of the rooms are left empty in the end. The rooms that are not empty will contain monsters, or might instead contain just treasure, hidden, trapped, guarded or not, while a few rooms will probably just feature traps and hazards with no treasure to be gained.  

Some treasure is guarded by monsters, traps and other hazards, and some is not. A good guideline here is that the more valuable, the more easy to carry the treasure is, the more likely it is to be kept by some monster or threat or another. Copper pieces, heavy pieces of furniture, are hard to carry along and bring back to safety. These might be treasures lying around, or easily reached. Silver pieces and huge tapestries which are easier to dispose off might be guarded or locked away in the upper levels of your dungeon. Gold, gems and jewel are portable and extremely valuable: these are hidden, well guarded, trapped, owned by chieftains and other tough opponents.

Use a variety of creatures. Not just intelligent humanoids, but a little bit of everything: oozes, constructs, undead creatures, animals and so on. Variety is the spice of life, variety ensures choices are significant. If you fill room after room with clusters of goblins, you shouldn’t be surprised if your Magic User blasts through each area memorizing the same spells over and over and over again. When you vary the creature types, the spells the MU memorizes all the time might not be adequate. There’s no instant solution to every problem. So the MU with the help of his companions must explore carefully, try to understand the nature of their opposition, formulate plans, sometimes fall back and memorize the right spells to get what they want out of some particular situation or another.

Speaking of variety of creatures another important tip comes to mind: don’t always use the same tactics whatever creatures you’re playing; use tactics appropriate to the creature types you’re using, and have these tactics reflect on the composition of the level itself. Some opponents like some animals or undead are just dumb. They stand there banging their heads against the walls ‘splush… splush… splush...’ don’t use tactics per se, just charge moaning ‘meat… meat…’ and that’s it. A starving wolf who feels threatened goes for the jugular if cornered, or uses animal tactics surrounding the opponent with the members of his pack if not. Role play the environment. It's your job as a DM.

Vary your opponents’ types and tactics.

Which makes me think : I also agree with P&P that having rosters of creatures is a good thing, particularly when we think about intelligent and/or non-negligible opponents scattered throughout the dungeon. It’s a good thing to know how many orcs are on the level. It allows the PCs to effectively have a tactical impact on their environment: they can have strategies, go for guerrilla tactics, they can wipe out the opponent, and then, can move from one level to the next knowing that they won’t have to face yet-another random orc party. It makes them feel like, throughout the campaign, they’ve actually accomplished something. They know for instance that some spiders might still be encountered on level 3, and maybe some creatures from other levels might still lurk here and there, but they’re pretty sure they solved the bugbear problem down there.

You don’t need a roster for everything that can be found in the dungeon certainly (particularly when talking about stuff like rodents and vermin and basically the kind of opponents that can reproduce quickly or get access to the dungeon from the outside with ease), but you probably should have a good idea of what the numbers and compositions of the major intelligent forces throughout the dungeon actually are.

One last point, and that’s about the variety of environments throughout our levels and dungeon in general. Customizing the environment and having some areas feel like they have “themes” going through them is a good thing. But don’t customize every single area of the dungeon. For something to feel weird and stand out to player’s scrutiny, it should be beyond a baseline that’s already been established. If there is no mundane, there is no weird possible. So with the first levels of the dungeon you want to build up expectations at least to some extent. You want to provide a baseline the players can learn about and deal with meaningfully. They can create tactics and strategize about their environment.

Then, you can introduce the special and the weird.

Create a set of reasonable expectations that land some results for a time, and then challenge them. Same thing with the creatures they meet throughout the dungeon: use some amount of fairly known creature types and critters, and then start introducing your own weird takes on them. Build expectations, and then challenge them.

Alright.

I’ve talked about a lot of stuff in the form of advice and guidelines and such but our map isn’t going anywhere with all this talk.

First, to draw a map we need a legend, an idea of the symbols we are going to use throughout our level so we can make sense of it all. There’s a set of symbols that is fairly common throughout TSR publications. This is more or less the set I’m talking about:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/map-legend.jpg)

Now, I’m notorious to deviate from this baseline on a regular basis because I kind of map as I go and don’t think about this or that symbol before posting the finished layout online. Then I get asked what the hell this or that blob represents on the map. So I’m going to make an effort and try to stick to this set of symbols for once. ;)

I start mapping the dungeon on a moleskin notebook I keep with me to write down ideas and such. I take one of the exits we have as a starting point, and basically go from there, referring myself to our level diagram periodically to know where the corridors lead, what features I might have to place next on the map, et cetera.

For this present level, I started with the “Well” entry point on our diagram. After I mapped a bit and erased my mistakes or just what didn’t look good to me quite a few times, I end up with this on the first page of my draft:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-sample-01.jpg)

And then continue on the next page, growing the level bit by bit, adding features, naming some areas, trying to visualize the environment as I do so. I don’t come up with everything on the spot: you’ll notice that some doors are missing, that there are no traps written on the map, or creatures placed. I have some ideas I may write down here and there, but not everything comes to me that way. I’ll often go back on the layout and add or erase things, modify what I’ve got because that doesn’t fit my expectations, and basically work at fitting the pieces of the puzzle into a coherent whole as I’m mapping the whole thing and quite often some time afterwards too.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-sample-02.jpg)

You can see there that I have the area named "Snake Pit" on the diagram take the form of this round structure up on the page with this pool of water or something in the middle of it, and some underground tunnel linking it to this area further east shaped like a cross, which I think is the area marked "Shrine" on our diagram (not entirely sure at this moment if that is going to stay or going to be changed down the road).

There's an interesting thing that happened as soon as I started drafting the map on the first page, by the way: this is this inclusion of areas of the dungeon that are completely unknown even to the current inhabitants of the level (which were probably used by the people who build the tower in the first place, i.e. the people who also built the troglodyte habitat on the side of the volcano up there, or the Builders/Mi-Go prior to that, maybe), as well as different areas which are spreading down a flight of stairs, like there are actually two different sub-levels intertwined with each other on this map (visible on the bottom of the first page, then going on the second page with a room spreading under the corridor stretching eastward at the bottom there, and another area stretching right around the round structure/Snake Pit too, if you follow the flight of stairs around).

These pages copied together on my “clean” copy of the map look like this at the moment:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-01.jpg)

The whole area covered so far here on our clean map represents this reddened part on our level diagram, more or less:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Megadungeon-L-1c-d2.jpg)

This is growing, bit by bit. I'm having quite a bit of fun with this actually.

We'll see where that leads us for next time. :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on March 01, 2012, 03:01:44 PM
I've been asked by messages to give examples of "classic" megadungeons that would come to mind, in terms of published materials and modules and whatnot.

One of the problems with the megadungeon format is that it goes hand in hand with the campaign format, since the megadungeon is the focus of the environment the PCs keep going to and back and forth, right? (that's actually the critical difference between what I would call a 'real' megadungeon and a 'lair', no matter how big it ends up being: the megadungeon is meant to be the focus of the campaign and the dynamic location of numerous adventures from there, while the lair isn't)

So in fact, you can't publish the classic megadungeon experience "as is", because it's an environment that's gigantic to begin with, and an environment that's dynamic and keeps evolving with the players' input on the other hand.

That's why all attempts to publish megadungeons are just providing a frame and a static environment that should be understood as such by the DM and really used as a starting point, not an end point or finished product, if you see what I mean. It's the case of all modules and scenarios structures, obviously, but probably especially in the case of the megadungeon experience, IMO.

There's one such published frame we've talked about recently, that's the Anomalous Subsurface Environment (http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/ase1-anomalous-subsurface-environment-%28standard-paper%29/15874202) of Patrick Wetmore (the guy I called PatW in my sources of inspiration for the Bandit Level before).

Note that it's just a starting point with a first level.

Other examples of frames like that include Rappan Athuk, the huge dungeon environment published by Necromancer Games, Dungeon Crawl Classics #51: Castle Whiterock from Goodman Games, The Upper Works of Castle Zagyg published by Troll Lord Games (which could be complemented by Joe Bloch's Castle of the Mad Archmage (http://greyhawkgrognard.blogspot.com/2010/07/castle-of-mad-archmage-final-release.html), or even the first boxed set of Undermountain published by TSR (the second boxed set can be ignored).

The T1-4 TSR module Temple of Elemental Evil is as classic a megadungeon and surrounding wilderness sandbox as you can get, too. This is actually what makes it work: look at T1-4 as a dynamic environment, and it's one of the best modules ever. Look at it as a static affair, and it is going to SUCK, especially the Temple itself, since it'll become boring and repetitive, instead of this dynamic space with lots of stuff you can do.

BTW, in T1-4, Lareth's hideout in the Moathouse could be called a "lair" in our distinction above, while the Temple itself would be that proto/published "megadungeon" frame we just talked about.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: ScrivenerB on March 18, 2012, 09:02:49 PM
This thread is nothing short of amazing.  It made me register on the forum.  Wow.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on March 20, 2012, 03:26:25 PM
Quote from: ScrivenerB;522279
This thread is nothing short of amazing.  It made me register on the forum.  Wow.


Thanks mate, welcome to the forum! Glad it's useful to you! I've been going on with the mapping of the Bandit level during the last few days and should have an update for this thread fairly soon. Cheers! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on May 13, 2012, 07:10:09 PM
First post in the advice to build a megadungeon (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=504466) (with master list of subsequent posts).

Since last time I went on with the mapping of the level of our mega-dungeon featuring, among other things, the hideout of the bandits living at the foot of our volcano. The "Bandit Level" as I call it evolved from the first sketches you saw in the previous posts, one chunk mapped at a time, taking my time in between to pause and refresh, think about a few ideas I had while visualizing the environment, take a few notes, think about something else.

I have been asked to list the tools I use when mapping. These usually do not vary: I use a range of Staedtler pencils (Staedtler Mars Lumograph, 12 pieces, ranging from "F" to "8B" in tone - I only used the F pencil for all the sketches you have seen so far, since the shading of the map is one of the last steps in our level design), rulers and protractor, compass set (including small and large compasses, the "large" one being the compass you are probably accustomed to), a good white eraser, and some graph paper I create to my own specifications and print from these online templates. (http://incompetech.com/graphpaper/)

Mapping chunk by chunk, areas get some of their features modified, shifted, erased or refitted. Parts evolve in such a fashion, from one mapping session to the next, on my moleskin notebook:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-sample-02.jpg)

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-sample-02b.jpg)

Individual sections like these are then copied onto the general, final map/draft of the level, like this:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-01.jpg)

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-02.jpg)

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-03.jpg)

This process gradually gives us a picture of the whole final level, as you can see from this next photograph:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-Dpic.jpg)

There is still a major section of the map missing, which is the cave system in the NE section of the level. This cave system I sketched apart, since these are much more complicated to get right for me: a cave system can be drawn in any number of ways (it doesn't need to follow the lines of the grid in any way shape or form, basically), so it's customary for me to try several configurations before finding something that fits both what I have in mind and what I already came up with in other sections of the map.

This is a draft version of the cave system I did by copying the outline of the dungeon on a separate sheet of graph paper:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-cave-test-800.jpg)

Once I was satisfied with the results I then copied this draft onto the final version by taping to the sheets of graph paper together to then hold them against the light of the day outside, retracing the outline of the caves with a pencil, as shown here:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-caves-copy-800.jpg)

Now, scanning both sections of the map and putting them together using photoshop, we have the bare bones, unshaded, and mostly unfurnished version of our final layout:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C01.jpg)

You can compare this draft to our original Bandit level diagram if you want and maybe recognize some of the areas we started talking about earlier: (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=515153#post515153)

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Megadungeon-L-1c-d.jpg)

As you might have noticed from the previous scans of the moleskin notebook, I not only adapted and reconfigured some earlier ideas, but also added lots of little notes and thoughts about all those various rooms and traps and corridors as I mapped, scribbling stuff in the corners, adding names on the map, and so on, so forth. This is an organic process: you start by thinking of an outline, then organize your ideas into a workable whole (a diagram), then use that framework to actually come up with the final layout, adapting these ideas as you go, coming up with new ones, taking notes in the process, etc.

There is still a lot of work to be done (since the map itself is far from final, with a sublevel under this one and a mezzanine level that need to be mapped as well, not to mention the surface level that needs its own representation, of course), but we will soon start keying our map to really try and pin down the level as we visualize it now: what are the challenges, the traps, the puzzles, the inhabitants of this level, the features that are worth describing on this map, what do they do, how they operate, etc. This will have a snowball effect on the various tasks that remain to be done, and will slowly bring everything together into a coherent whole. Once we have that picture of the level nailed down, we will figure out how to make it come alive using a bunch of tools which will make our lives easier in actual play - tools such as wandering monster tables, relations between the factions of the dungeon and the like. We will be ready to run the game from there.

Stay tuned for more.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on May 16, 2012, 02:36:18 PM
Great maps Benoist. Usually i stick with a mechanical pencil and ink it in with different kinds of pens and markers later. Not too familiar with the pencil types you listed. What are the advantages of each one?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on May 16, 2012, 03:22:38 PM
Thanks Brendan! First lets show you what pencils I am talking about here: Staedtler Mars Lumograph pencils. (http://www.staedtler.com/Mars_Lumograph_eng.Staedtler)

Staedtler has been a leader in graphic and geometric tools for decades now. It's the standard by which I judge anything I use, actually (I was actually taught graphic design in Catholic school back in France using Staedtler tools). Whether we are talking pencils, ink pens, erasers, compass, rulers, you name it: that is awesome stuff. Relatively expensive compared to the competition, but well worth it if you want a precise, clean job well done.

The advantage of drawing with pencils as opposed to anything else is that you control what the lines end up looking like. I sharpen pencils using a pen sharpener like everyone else, but sometimes also use a knife, sharpening the tip by hand for sharper results.

The pens in a Mars Lumograph box cover all ranges of shading - from very light tones (F) to very greasy, strong tones (8B). Using a combination of different shades/strengths of pencils, you can contrast your lines better and make some elements stand out as opposed to others. You can also have lines stand out, and do the actual shading with lighter pencils, so you have a broad range of contrasts to play with in the end. It helps make the map useful to the eye, by selecting the elements you really want to see first in the final draft, as you play the game itself.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: LordVreeg on May 16, 2012, 03:32:20 PM
I also use Staedtler pencils for my greys, Berol Prismacolors for my colored stuff (though I also like caran d'ache) and Koh-I Noor Rapidograph pens for my pen and inks.

That being said, I do more and more work with various mapping programs or graphic programs these days.


Love the maps, Ben, BTW.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on May 16, 2012, 06:42:48 PM
Thanks Lord Vreeg. :)

I use Photoshop for quite a few things: whether we are talking about adding labels to maps, coloring them, putting together different parts of a map onto a single file like we can see above, I think softwares can be very useful for mapping obviously.

I also think that, to me, the process of drawing a map by hand is fairly important. The time, patience it takes. The act of visualizing the walls, the furniture, the successions of corridors as I draw them on the page. All these things help me make sense of what it is I am mapping in a way that softwares just cannot achieve, as far as I'm concerned. Mapping by hand is an organic, literally hands-on approach that I would advise to anyone trying to build a similar environment.

Your maps don't need to be works of art, or very complex affairs, really. They need to be functional, first and foremost. Drawing the map by hand helps make it functional because it helps make it yours in your mind's eye. You come to own it by drawing all the detail yourself. It becomes real in your imagination. So I'm not seeing softwares like Photoshop as though they were a replacement to a set of hand drawing skills, really, but more as tools that add another dimension to these skills instead. One can't replace the other, though they both can complement each other very nicely for a superior result. I know that's how I feel about it in any case.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Harley Stroh on June 19, 2012, 03:08:52 PM
Very cool thread. Impressive work.

//H
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on June 19, 2012, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: Harley Stroh;550052
Very cool thread. Impressive work.

//H


Thanks Harley! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on August 27, 2012, 04:08:36 PM
After we've drawn the outline of our dungeon level (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=538909#post538909) and thus have an idea of the layout of the place, we are ready to pin down what each area is exactly about, make sense of their organization and using that information, finalize the map once and for all.

First, I use the template I built using photoshop (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C01.jpg) to bring the two halves of the map together into a coherent whole in the previous post linked above, and print a number of copies to use as drafts where I will be able to report all the notes I scribbled here and there in my moleskin notebook as I was mapping different areas of the level, and therefore get a first look into the way all that stuff comes together within the context of the whole.

Now, with the help of my level diagram and the ideas I already have about the place, (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=515153#post515153) and knowing there will be two sublevels, the mezzanine above the northern stables and workshop at least (see the two large tower shapes with stairs marked "up" on the map), and the 'waterworks' level below (linking the different pools of water of this main level), I report all the information I scribbled onto my notebook on one of the copies I made of the level template. Knowing that the bandits and their accomplices don't know everything about this place they elected as their hideout, I highlight all the areas that are unknown to them, which are still isolated from the rest of the complex by various secret doors and passages. I then shade these areas in light grey to make them stand out on this draft.

As I am reporting all this information I have some new ideas. I add in traps, such as pits, and swing traps (drawn as arched arrows protruding from the walls), murder holes (arrow points against the walls), alarm strings and bells to defend the place and warn of intruders (pictured as triangles with an exclamation point inside), add in some teleporters symbolized by colored dots, each color indicating a common relationship between certain teleporters and not others, determine where the guard posts are (letter G on the map), color the water with a light blue pencil. I notice the diamond-shaped rooms which share the same shape (numbered with circled 1 to 6 on the map) and will do something with them at well. The idea is for me to have a good idea of all the elements on the map and how they work together at a glance.

The result looks like this (you'll forgive my hand-writing hopefully):

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C04.jpg)

Now you will notice that not all rooms have some descriptive elements. This is the first step in what I was talking about earlier when I described to you how you don't want all rooms to be stuffed with something, that you want to let the party breathe as it explores the place. Add to this that some of the areas that do have some detail might not contain a hazard or danger per se at all, and we'll have in the end a large variety of rooms, corridors and areas, some of them occupied, some of them hiding some element like a secret door or passage not readily visible to the investigating party, and some of them remaining quite bare and empty.

Now I could conceivably run a game based on this draft alone. Some DMs like to give themselves a lot of leeway in the manner in which they run their dungeons and populate them. The flaw here is that if you make stuff up as you go, you might try to railroad your players or just stuff the dungeon with what's convenient at any point to end up ruining the agency and immersion of your players. That's something I want to avoid.

I want to have some dynamism to the place for sure, but I want the challenge to be more objective than that, which requires more prep on my part, like knowing what forces are in presence, with an actual roster of the dungeon's inhabitants, what the relationships between those forces are, and of course, a key to this map that describes each particular area in ways that let me know who's where, when, what the traps are, the features of the areas and so on. We'll come back to the actual first draft of the key later on.

At this moment, though, what I do is take another copy of the template of the level I built and start to put numbers on it to see how I could organize the key itself. The important point here is for me to be able to refer to the map quickly, see a number or letter describing a specific area, refer to the map's key and see immediately what is in there.

I started by numbering the various large areas, or clusters of room that are linked together thematically by inhabitants or vibe thereof. Then I distinguish specific rooms using letters that pertain to that area number, and what I end up with is this:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C02.jpg)

Now I was not happy at all with the results, the main reason being that it does not fulfill my original intent to be readable and intuitive at an actual game table. You might see at a glance this or that letter for each area but then wonder what number that letter pertains to, like whether that letter "A" in the center of the map pertains to area 17 or 18 above. It takes but a fraction of second to figure it out, but the bottom line is that it's a fraction too much to my liking. It might lead to confusion and error in actual play, and if there's one thing I don't want to happen well, this is it.

So I start again using yet another copy of the template. This time, I identify each specific room and/or area with a distinct number. It's not original, but heck, I guess there's a reason this method is a classic:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C03.jpg)

That actually works. Now there are a few letters but it's pretty obvious what area they are under. Numbers are identifiable instinctively and allow me to refer to the key in no time. I might change and switch numbers around later on, but that'll do for a first run at a key of the entire dungeon level.

That's what we'll do next time.

Addendum (answer to feedback from Mudguard on K&K)

Quote from: Mudguard
Good stuff. Interesting to read about your placement of traps/warning apparatus etc., and also your reflections on how to indicate territories on the level. Think the little lake with "Obel" island and the hydra, the B1-style pool room: "steam dark"(is it?), and "the cube" are all pretty intriguing.

The positioning of traps and likewise apparatus is something of a conundrum: on one hand, you want to have some traps so that the place doesn't feel like it's unguarded, or that the party can come back and forth without ever having a potential for error; on the other hand, you don't want to have so many traps that the ecology, movement of creatures between areas of the complex etc becomes nonsensical, unless you have a specific design of a complex that is meant to be a trap itself, a Tomb of Horrors, if you will.

In other words, I tried to think about ways in which the inhabitants of the level would simply defend themselves, and still allow them to move around and know where their own protections are and how to avoid them when necessary. I might have been a little light-handed on this particular level, but at the same time, it will be populated of various factions and just rushing through to see yourself surrounded by enemies on all sides it itself a potential challenge and setback for the unwary, isn't it?

I thought about making the different territories on the map stand out in a similar fashion I did with the various secret areas of the level. It just wasn't needed for what I had in mind, which was primarily to prepare the actual key, but that is certainly an aid that could be useful to add after the fact, particularly when you are rolling wandering encounters or populating guard posts and wondering who's where and how/if people are moving around at any given moment.

As for "Steam Dark M." and "the Cube", their function and origins will be discussed later. Hint: if you are a more recent player of the game, you might know what the former means; if you are an old timer, you might guess what the cube might be, given it is connected to the teleporter pointing to it with an arrow, south-west of its position...
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on August 30, 2012, 02:48:26 PM
We now have a good rough idea of what’s where on the dungeon level. We have organized our thoughts not only on paper as we were drafting the map, but also pieced together the whole and created a blueprint of sorts, assorting a copy indicating various contents and hazards on the level to another organizing our key numbering itself. Now we are almost ready to take this blueprint to the next step and actually key the dungeon level itself.

First, however, we summarize our factions, related rosters, and think about the actual history of the level so that these elements are there to guide us as we key the map of the level.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C05.jpg)

Shaded version of the Bandit Level. Detail in progress.

Factions and Rosters

It is important to keep in mind the nature of the groups and factions populating the level as we key it all. It is also extremely helpful to have a body count of the most important groups therein: not only does it help us eyeball exactly how many individuals to put where and how, so that the whole makes a modicum of sense, but it also helps in actual play, by rewarding the players and having them realize that there are no infinite numbers of bandits and hobgoblins, and that if they work at it with caution and diligence, they can gain grounds and depopulate an area, even the whole level, to the point they could actually appropriate it to themselves and use it later as a base of operations for their expeditions deeper in the dungeon.

On the map of our level, there are a few factions that are quite visible from the onset based on the main areas of the complex:

Now there are a lot of other minor factions or areas, like the harpies, the spiders having a nest connecting to the chasm up north, and obviously the various remnants of the original inhabitants' activities of this level, who are now mostly entombed in secret areas of the level, but these are our main groups which are most likely to determine who’s where and when at any particular moment of the party’s exploration.

Consulting the Monster Manual, Monster Manual II (for its handy charts referencing all monsters, mostly, in this instance) and Fiend Folio, we can have an idea of the particulars of each group, and extrapolate from there to make sense of our complex.

Now these rosters do not include the undead resting in the secret areas around the complex, as well as various individual creatures or small groups which will be specifically described per area in the map’s key.

Background

This level of the dungeon is far from being the most ancient. It was not built by the original builders (the Mi Go) who dug through the volcano’s flanks to reach some specific goals which ended up being their undoing aeons ago.

It was instead the first settlement of a race of sorcerer kings and their allied troops. The sorcerers wanted to steal the secrets of the ancient race of builders who had first discovered this particular volcano, and longed for its secrets. They first built this complex to act as a home base of sorts. As they explored the ruins left behind by their alien predecessors, they built a fort up on the flanks of the volcano above, and moved their headquarters there as they ventured ever deeper in the bowels of the earth from the inside of the mountain itself. This level was then repurposed as a garrison for the sorcerers’ troops, which they mostly used to keep control of the valley around the site, and to guarantee a secure access to the sea nearby.

Some centuries ago, the sorcerers’ explorations of the valley and volcano ended abruptly. Whether they discovered the same secrets that proved to be the undoing of the Mi Go, or fled due to some other event outside of their own control, is largely unknown at this point, but what will be evident from the party’s exploration is that this place was left behind after a great many of their troops either died or were entombed inside the complex, and that some of the dweomers that were an integral part of the sorcerers’ logistics were not shut down before they did, which tends to show that the end was indeed very brutal.

This level of the dungeon lay dormant for quite some time. The ruin of a old tower and dependences remained visible on the surface, in the woods close to the slopes of the volcano itself, but the indigenous people avoided the site (and the volcano) like the plague – which most of them still do, by the way.

The bandits that started flooding the area after the valley was settled by the Vikings first operated in the port and village at the mouths of the local river connecting the valley to the sea spreading to the west. Their operations were soon discovered by some of the valley’s inhabitants, however, and an attempt was made to hunt them down and shut down their operations completely. This is when a small band of them left the village proper to investigate the area and, if possible, find some place which they would be able to use as their future headquarters away from civilization and the agents of the laws of men.

This is when they discovered the ruined tower and dependences, and settling there for a while, ended up finding out about the connection of these ruins with the underground complex that spread from the depths under the tower towards the volcano, and up to the troglodyte fort itself.

Relationships

The small group of bandits pursues its various illegal operations from this level (connecting to a number of different locations they use accordingly, more about this later) and grew as a result.

The self-styled "bandit king" is the uncontested leader of the current inhabitants of the level. The priests and alchemist are under his direct orders, as are the brigands living there. The kobolds are refugees from another area of the dungeon (the mines of the Ash Kadaï, level 1a on our side-view of the volcano (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Volcano-dungeon01.jpg)) who serve the king in exchange for his protection. The hobgoblins, however, are both unrelated to the Ash Kadaï, with connections to more fearsome beings in the wilderness, namely giants (more on that later too), and hired mercenaries of the bandit king whose tasks are both to ensure the protection of the hideout and manage the grimlock slaves as they dig searching for some crystals the alchemist uses in his magical experiments.

The group is now enormous, truly a force to reckon with, but the proximity of the dreaded volcano would make it hard to convince the authorities of the valley to raise an army to get rid of the problem: they already tried, back when the brigands pursued most of their illegal activities at the core of the village by the sea, and now that they managed to get rid of them, they are unlikely to just tempt the Devil and kick the hornets’ nest when it can stay where it is and pursue its activities away from the valley’s inhabitants. Sure, the bandits abduct people in the valley and might become a nuisance, but so far they have been diligent in liberating some of their more valuable prisoners in exchange for ransoms paid to the king. No need to upset the status quo at this point, from the authorities’ point of view.

The other consequence of the group’s dramatic growth is tensions between the different groups within the complex. The hobgoblins are in for the money, and truly do not think much of the bloated bandit king, his wizard and his tin soldiers (the automatons built by the alchemist – we’ll get back to that). The alchemist wizard himself just wants to discover the secret of this place and perfect his experiments using the captives of the brigands and the crystals he could scavenge as they explored the place some time ago. Now he is searching for more, with the help of the hobgoblins and their grimlock slaves, having convinced the king of the benefit magical power would represent for his operations. The priest in control of the temple area is a worshipper of dark cults who hates the alchemist and what he believes is his hold over the bandit king with a well-hidden passion. He pursues his own investigation of the place, and hopes somehow to find out what the alchemist could not – the actual purpose of this place and its multiple dweomers. He’s had very little success so far, but he keeps trying. The king, meanwhile, insane as he really is, is actually very conscious of the rivalries opposing his servants, and plays them against each other to keep the upper hand on the organization.

During their occupation of the place, the bandits and their allies have found out about a few secret doors and areas within the complex, and have seen a few attacks resulting from the occasional monster or undead suddenly showing up here and there on the level. This is something that puzzles the cleric in particular, and the alchemist as well, to some extent. They know this complex is not entirely dead, that there are strong magical forces at work here, but they both somehow hope to understand and use whatever it is that kills some of their men occasionally. They do not understand the actual danger, nor the fact that they are actually surrounded by legions of undead dormant beyond the walls of the level…

Guard Posts

Throughout the (draft) map of the level (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C04.jpg), some areas are simply designated by a “G”, as opposed to some specific number linked to the key itself. These are guard posts. The population of guard post varies depending on their exact location: if the guard post is close to the hobgoblins’ territory, it will be populated accordingly; if it is in the middle of the brigands’ hideout proper, then men are going to fill the ranks there. Guard posts are assumed to generally have 2-4 (d3+1) individuals stationed there at any given moments. These numbers may vary greatly as the inhabitants of the level become aware of the party’s presence, i.e. some guard posts may see their numbers double while others would be deserted if the brigands are aware of the particular location of the party, or the existence of a breach in the security of the level. Manage these hot spots accordingly.

Wandering monsters table

This will be discussed in detail after we are done with the map’s key (which will be immediately next).
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 04, 2012, 04:52:08 PM
We come now to the actual key of the Bandit level map (which I will break into a few different posts to not overwhelm everyone with a gigantic wall of text). The contents of this key have been altered by including full words and (nigh) sentences instead of abbreviations in order to reflect the information I actually use when I run the game.

By way of comparison, here is entry (1) as it appears on my notebook: Empty chamber. Ceiling open to shaft, well/surface. Wire trap --> alarm (crude bells) to G. 4/6 to trip. Detect. auto upon insp.

Entry (2) reads: Crushing panel N/S. Save v. DB or 2d6. Rearm from (3). Disloc. body nearby (S).

Everyone has a different way to organize the information they will use during the game. Some people need to write extensive notes and actual text they can go back to as they run whatever they prepared. Others do bullet points and schematics (I use a lot of arrows myself). Others yet will just write down a few stats for monsters and hazards and run the thing from there. You might not relate to the specific information I provide here. If you want to run this level yourself (and by all means, have at it) I strongly encourage you to take it into your own hands and make it your own: retool it to suit your needs.

My notes summarize the information about the related areas on the map briefly, often with a set of specific adjectives or succinct descriptions of the area’s particular features. All the rest is basically in my mind. It is not so much a jumping point for my imagination where I’d make everything up from these notes, rather than notes that are destined to remind me of information and visualizations of the environment as I originally conceived it in my mind’s eye, when mapping the level, annotating as I went.

I will key this map using the information collected in our previous posts, keeping my two drafts of the levels, the fully annotated draft (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C04.jpg), and the numbered draft (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C03.jpg), in particular, right in front of my eyes as I do so.

Abbreviations: some abbreviations, especially for book references, are still used here. MM means Monster Manual, FF means Fiend Folio, MM2 means Monster Manual 2 and GW Gamma World (first ed, 1978), for instance. These abbreviations are generally followed by page numbers, i.e. MM 88 means “Monster Manual, p.88”. AC for Armor Class and HP for Hit Points are also common.

BANDIT LEVEL MAP KEY, PART 1

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C-key-01.jpg)

1 – Empty chamber. Ceiling is open and leads to the shaft of the well (see surface map). Wire trap by the door leading to set of crude bells in the corridor behind. 4-in-6 chances to trigger if unaware. Careful inspection of the door will reveal the wire automatically. Ringing bells will alert people from area (3) immediately in front of the trap.

2 – Pressure plate in the corridor. Crushing panel swings from the north towards the south at high velocity. Save v. dragon breath or suffer 2d6 points of damage. The trap may be rearmed from the area (3). Dislocated body of a victim lies south of the trap, where the panel slams into the wall.

3 – Engineer, Ogrillon and a few guards maintaining the traps of the level on the lookout. The Ogrillon (FF 70) is as 3rd level fighter (AC 6, HP 18, fights with his bare fists, 2 attacks per round for 1d6+1 damage each). Engineer is a plain bandit with a gift for mechanical devices and machinery. A weak loot of 12 coppers, 11 silver, 6 electrum and 10 gold owned may be gathered from the normal men’s purses. The Ogrillon has 8 GP in a purse and a tentacle talisman around the neck gifted to him by the Temple’s acolyte (clay, no intrinsic value, but could be used w/canon and/or curate to get access to the Temple).

4 – Empty room with open pit. Skull, bits of ribs, coins and a shiny dagger float above the pit – not levitating, but inside a nigh invisible gelatinous cube with lair at the bottom of the pit filled with mud and stagnant water. Secret passage to the crypts at the bottom, under the water line. Treasure of the cube includes dagger (finely crafted, 20 gp value), 8 coppers, 15 silver, 10 electrum, 5 gold, 5 platinum, 2 garnets (value 50 gp each – might be hard to find after killing the creature).

5 – Waiting room for visitors arriving from well to reach the refectory. (7). Benches. Roll for chance of a random encounter.

6 – Second waiting room, flaming oil in containers hanging from the ceiling. May be poured over the people in this room using a switch from either guard rooms next to it. Save v. dragon breath for full damage (2d6 + 1d6), or splash damage (1d3) on success. See flaming oil DMG p. 64.

7 – Refectory. 4-in-6 chances to have 2d6 + 4 individuals in this room, either eating or gambling. Tapestries on long walls (north west, south east) conceal doors to the guards’ areas. 2d4 GP per individual.

8 – Kitchen. Cook present 4-in-6, or on some errand on the level. 3 aids working here most of the time 5-in-6. Meats and stew on stove. Exhaust too small for living beings = frequently smoked room, partial cover with aids (AC 7) throwing pots and pans at obvious intruders (1-4 damage). Cook has 12 gold in a purse. Aids own about 20 silver each (idem).

9, 10 – Corridors to teleporters and guard areas. 2-in-6 chance to have 1d2 bandits in this corridor in addition to the guards from guard post. Octagonal rooms include teleporters frozen in time. Looks like a blob statue with faces and arms and features emerging from the rock. Simple contact with living flesh reanimates teleporter, which itself becomes mass of protoplasm that tries to slowly suck living flesh in.

May step back automatically, as process is slow (1 round).

If you let yourself get sucked in the mass of protoplasm your body is digested painfully. You die. Your body (and equipment, including magical equipment) is then recreated from the mass of protoplasm of a receiving teleporter (not one of the octagonal rooms, but the 8 others spread throughout the level. Roll 1d8, with teleporters numbered 1 to 8, from north to south on the map, to determine receiving teleporter – area 27 does not count, as it receives from (16) only).  

2 in 8 chances to malfunction: roll another d8. On a 7 the (still living) body is not digested, but rejected from the point of origin plus chaotic mutation (save v. spell renders the mutation minor, roll d100 on Physical mutation table GW 9). 8 rejects the (still living) body but creates a duplicate (along with equipment, though magical items become non magical in this particular case) with opposite alignment at the target teleporter (save v. spell negates creation of the duplicate). The duplicate has 1-in-2 chance to be affected by chaotic mutations (roll on mutation table). 1-in-2 chance to be “aware” of his existence as the copy of the original, OR considers himself to be the original who just experienced a sort of epiphany during the teleportation process to explain its sudden change of alignment. RP from there.

11 – Bandits dormitory. Beds, personal effects, graffiti on walls etc. 2d6 + 6 bandits present 50%, or 1d6+3, plus 1 4th level and 1 3rd level fighters (AC 6, 21 and 18 HP, chief fights with an unnaturally large maul (Conan), while his underling fights with sword and spear). They generally are not ready for battle, though their weapons are always nearby. 2d4 gp for each bandit present, normal weapons, 3rd level fighter has about 23 GP on his person.

12 – Sergeant’s quarters. 4-in-6 chance of being here, or 2 sentries are guarding this room instead. 5th level fighter (Sword +1, AC 5, 32 HP) with 1 healing potion (from Temple), 50 GP, 50 SP and 12 coppers secured in a trapped chest (needle, locked).

13 – Living quarters of the maul-wielding lunatic of the dormitory (11). Furred bag in a corner of the room holds 3 scorpions and treasure: 50 silver, 25 GP, plus a jar of ointment from Temple curing sore joints and paralysis in 3 rounds (5 doses remaining).

14 – Ancient baths. Used to dump garbage. Filth everywhere. Was a really nice marbled room a long time ago. The three small basins along with the round pool in the NW corner are lairs of oozes. 3 gray oozes in octagonal pools (MM 49) and 1 large specimen in the round pool. Water is also filthy with bits of lichen and dust and crap floating on the surface. Round pool’s water is cleaner. It is through this pool that the waterworks sub-level may be reached (via water supply). The Dome above the pool is breached, and connects to a cavern system that links this area and area (112) (and by extension, the shafts of areas (107) and (108)), then up within the volcano to Level (1b – Troglodyte fort) and the surface beyond.

Cleaning up the pool thoroughly would reveal its contents, including some heavily corroded, unusable remnants of weapons and armor, including 3 wooden spear shafts and 2 shield frames, the coin having long disappeared in this soup, an impure diamond worth about 50 GP, and lastly, a large glass container with, inside, the living severed head of a previous apprentice to the alchemist at (59), first victim of his experiments.

15 – Corridor with caryatid columns. Bandits know not to disturb them, and avoid this corridor entirely as a result. These columns actually only react when their weaponry or body are touched, poked etc.  (FF 18). No treasure.

16 – Ancient shrine to the elements, including an altar with enormous fresco/sculpture representing them all mingled, as though they were emanating from the altar itself. Close inspection of the sculpture will reveal hidden switches opening a secret door leading to a short corridor which leads to a teleporter similar to those of areas (9, 10) but for the appearance of elements emanating from the faces and arms and various body parts all intertwined in the seemingly solid sculpture. Stepping into the teleporter (see ibid) will transport the subject to one of the four elemental teleporters connected to it (roll 1d4. 1 – Air, 2 – Earth, 3 – Fire, 4 – Water). Also roll 1d8 for elemental mutation (7) or malfunction (8), the result of which would teleport the individual to area (27) instead, with an elemental mutation as well (save v. spell renders the mutation minor, roll d100 on Physical mutation table GW 9 plus elemental twist).

Each elemental room acts as a sort of portal to the corresponding elemental plane. In the fire room for instance you are standing on an octagonal platform atop a sea of molten lava and can spot in the distance the shining domes of the City of Brass. Stepping back into the teleporter allows the roll of a 1d4 for next destination, with the same element rolled indicating a teleportation to area (27) instead (without elemental mutation).

These octagonal platforms are intended as observation points, an occasion for the worshippers of these elements (who are long gone now) to meditate and admire the planes. Leaving the platforms should be possible (though they are isolated from the rest of the plane, i.e. floating in the winds, surrounded by water, levitating high above the lava fields beyond the City of Brass, or deep within an enormous grotto of elemental Earth, etc.), but this could be nigh suicidal at these levels. (For scenery make up your own, or see the Manual of the Planes, or get inspired by checking this thread out (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=578995#post578995)).

17 – The Ogre’s domain, where he lives with his two wives (HP 14 and 15, 3-in-6 chances each of being in the lair), a few sheep, and his treasure. North and south of (17) are the quarters of the two wives, with straw bedding, piles of refuse and the like (treasure is all kept secure by husband, the wives having no possessions of their own. They resent it, hence possible negotiations). A teleporter is located in the middle of (17). Just roll 1d8 for target teleporter, and another 1d8 for possible mutation or malfunction – see areas (9, 10).

18 – The Ogre’s lair proper. (MM 75). 22 HP, 34 GP on his person. This is an old one-eyed ogre serving the bandit king in exchange for shelter and protection. He made friends with the hobgoblins and tends to (taunts) the grimlocks in (112). 2-in-6 chances of being in the lair. Keeps sheep (see area 60) in the cluster of room/corridors east of his lair. Keeps treasure in the locked trapezoid room NE, which includes: 154 coppers, 325 silver, 58 electrum, 112 gold pieces, a half-eaten, half-decomposing dwarf puppet (actual dead dwarf used for the ogres’ amusement as a puppet), a buckler +1 (once belonging to the dwarf), a finely crafted axe (non-magical), one potion of anaerobic sustenance, one potion of feather fall, one potion of healing and a ring of delusion that feels like mammal control. The Ogre may be bargained with, but it is going to take some persuasion and some hard coin to have him leave the PCs alone, especially if they look feeble and are loaded with riches he could take by force.

19 – Old steam baths. Includes machinery to the south that malfunctioned a long time ago. The air vents scattered on the floor throughout the room still exude steam, providing the dark mantles hidden amongst the various wet lichens that grew on its ceiling. Air vents can be used to access lower waterworks level. Dark Mantles (from d20 SRD) are translated as 2 HD monsters. Hit for 1d4+1 damage, save v. paralyzation to avoid being grabbed, 1d4+1 constriction. 8 Dark Mantles in this room (AC 4 due to concealment, HP 4, 6, 10, 9, 9, 7, 5, 5). Machinery is covered with a colony of brown mold (MM 71) and may have alternate effects beyond the control of the steam (fragment incomplete).

20 – Snake’s basin. This large round area spreads around a pool of water that gives access to the waterworks level below. This is where the king’s giant snake is usually fed by its keeper (see area 21). All the major bodies of water (including areas 14, 20, 32 and 47) are basically connected down at the waterworks level by a series of pipes. Sections of the pipes are isolated from each other by a series of sliding panels accessible down below. The snake is usually (80%) kept in this section accessed via area 20, but may be granted access to the Temple (32) for particular ceremonies and (47) for the entertainment of the king (devouring some guests or servants of his – think Jabba the Hut and the Rancor with a serious Conanesque twist in the giant serpent and a vibe of Moorcock’s Nadsokor here – more on that later). Giant Snake, Constrictor, MM 88 (AC 5, 32 HP). 2-in-6 chances of the Snake handler being at work here with his assistants (3).

21 – Snake handler’s work area. Contains barrels of fish, nets, hooked poles, a couple of harpoons and various implements used to clean up the basins, tend to the Snake (20), keep it in check and so on. A trap door (more like a vent with a ladder) in the middle of the room leads to the waterworks level. This room extends under area (20), its north wall following its curve. The underwater section of the basin above is here in plain view, the water being secluded from the room by crystal panels of different shapes and sizes all held by a web of dark metal (think stained glass windows, a huge cylinder filled with water in the center of room, with the snake inside). 2-in-6 chances of the snake handler being at work here with his assistants (3).

22 – The Snake handler’s living quarters. Rarely here (1-in-6), this room is usually locked. It contains a barrel with 3 doses of gillyweed (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gillyweed) (which allows the consumer to breathe under water for an hour, roughly, though the exact duration varies, i.e. 1d4+4 turns), 54 silver, 32 gold in a small locked chess. The snake handler is a 3rd level fighter (AC 7, HP 14).

23 – More baits for the Snake (living and otherwise), and various supplies.

24, 25, 26 – Visitors area. These are apartments (25 and 26, with the other rooms being common areas with simple fare like beds of straw and the like) usually reserved for the guests of the bandit king, whether they are valuable hostages, or envoys from various factions of the region who would want to have dealings with the bandits. At the moment a group of orcs from the Ash Kadaï (see the Mines, level 1a) is visiting the bandit king in the hope to strike a deal for mutual assistance. Assuming the PCs do not intervene and give some reason for the two factions to come to an understanding, this deal is doomed to fail – for the moment. The orc delegation includes 12 Orcs (6 sword and spear, 6 axe and crossbow), a leader (huge two-handed francisca, face ritually scarred/burnt, spears) and a shaman/3rd level cleric (see MM 76). Treasure includes lots of broken teeth, a few cut elven teeth, 58 coppers, 23 silver, 12 electrum, plus 18 gold and a potion of invisibility in the leader’s possession, plus a potion of neutralize poison and a potion of healing both on the shaman’s person.

27 – Teleporter. This teleporter only leads to the 8 others scattered throughout the level, and includes no chance of creating a duplicate. It can still malfunction and spawn mutations on a 8, however. It is also the sole receiver from the elemental teleporters of (16). See area (16) for more detail.

28 – Teleporter and covered pit trap (10’ deep, with wooden spikes, 1d8+1 damage).

29 – Tomb of the ancient sorcerer. This room’s walls feel fleshy and alive in some areas, as though they had produced five living, pulsing tumours in a fashion similar to the teleporters described previously. If the tomb in the middle of the room is touched, the magical tumours will spawn a defence against the intruders, generating a swarm of 5-50 deformed aberrations, half-formed body parts and the like, which leap forth and attack (treat as a swarm of giant rats, MM 81). Purging the room of these strange formations one by one (with flame and the like) would only generate 1-10 individuals per attempt.

This secret area dates back to the days of the original owners of the complex, the sorcerer kings of old. One of them, a disgraced magic-user who had a fondness for the men of this garrison apparently, was buried here next to some of the largest crypts of the level. This man here is not a nice guy. If disturbed (assuming the threat of the swarm of flesh was dispatched somehow), he will awaken as the wight he is and defend his resting place (AC 5, 28 HP).

The current occupants of the level have no idea this place even exists. If somehow the wight defeats the players, or causes them to flee his domain, what he would do next is up to interpretation. If the wight does not follow the fleeing PCs he will simply secure his tomb and go back to his slumber. If, however, he chases the PCs around and realizes what has become of this entire place, he might head back to his tomb, open the southern secret door, and walk down to the crypt to wake the undead of this place and cleanse the level of its living inhabitants. This would potentially change this whole level into a war zone, the effect of which will be discussed later on.

Inside the sarcophagus, along with the wight’s body, are a few valuables including 3 razor-sharp disks of meteoric metal which could be used as throwing weapons (damage 1d8) covered with mysterious inscriptions, the value of which is 800 GP each. The wight also wears a signet ring, which turns out to be a ring of telekinesis. A tattered scroll contained in an ivory tube can also be found, and includes the spells magic missile, affect normal fires, dancing lights, and magic mouth.

Key to be continued… (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=584077#post584077)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Murder-Hobo on September 10, 2012, 03:10:27 AM
Benoist, I must say that I've found your posts in this thread to be most inspirational.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 10, 2012, 10:48:52 AM
Quote from: Murder-Hobo;581440
Benoist, I must say that I've found your posts in this thread to be most inspirational.


Thank you, MH. It's my fondest hope to inspire gamers to give the mega-dungeon a shot with this series. Whatever you do with these posts, whether you come up with your own setting based on this thread or use parts of the sample here in your own game, or whatever the case may be, I hope you have a blast playing. Cheers to you, mate, and welcome to the RPG Site.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 13, 2012, 06:18:42 PM
I'm going to share some feedback and answers relating to that last post. Our next instalment on this thread will of course go on with the Key to the Bandit level.

Quote from: Ghul
Right before "Key to be continued..." you really grabbed my attention with encounter #29. Although I enjoy the ogre and bandits, too, I feel you really start to find your groove with the tomb of the ancient sorcerer. Great work, Ben. Looking forward to the next installment. :)
Glad you like it, Jeff. :)

Yes, the level features some of the usual suspects of low level AD&D: the ogre, the gelatinous cube et al. These monsters are classics for a reason. In actual play, they lead to some of the coolest moments in the game. Negotiations with a moronic ogre, or trying to grab floating jewels to find out you are in fact in front of "the" gelatinous cube of legend are a lot of fun. There are certainly other ways to customize this dungeon layout, and by all means, anyone who would want to do it should have at it, but these were included for specific reasons I'm going to get into now.

Since the level is meant to be an example of how to come up with a level for a megadungeon, I felt that these usual suspects needed to be there. It's the shared experience of the game that helps us speak the same language. In the context of an "how to" series of post, including these elements basically brings the commonality of language and experience on which we can build an effective example.

These elements also serve to anchor the "normalcy" of the level, a "normalcy" that is then opposed to and contrasted against the weirdest elements and areas of the level. You have a first layer to this underworld that is an adventure in itself, but beyond its walls, literally, you have another layer that is much darker and serves a specific role in our set-up:

On one hand, there is the immediate element of discovery and adventure - the immediate reward of exploring these darker/weirder sections of the map.

On the other hand, the PCs become aware that there is much more than meets the eye to this hideout, an element that will be echoed by the stranger levels of the dungeon later on as the PCs venture deeper within the mountain, i.e. it's an element of foreshadowing.

Finally, there is the element of dynamism of the place, and what the area (29) hints at: that there are two worlds that might clash violently here, which would change the nature of the level were they finding out about each other's existence. Various other elements, like the spiders (to come) or the dark mantles, are there to round out the experience and provide a volume to the whole so it doesn't just feel like there are these two elements opposing each others.

The dynamics of the bandit coalition are also there to both reinforce this feeling of believability of the place, and also to provide tensions and oppositions the PCs might want to exploit if they aren't just barging in and killing everything in sight (which certainly IS a possibility, but far from the only one - we'll get to the ways in which the level could be explored with different sets of player-character objectives later on).

At least that's the intent.

Quote from: Alex
benoist, I'm really digging this effort.  You've been exalted.  I just started playing in a megadungeon for the first time a year ago and started running my own megadungeon yesterday!  My biggest concern is brevity.  I'm used to emulating published modules from the mid-80s, and that was the first thing I had to change, but I'm still taking up much more space than you and other megadungeon authors yet still had to refer back to older, more verbose notes for a few details during yesterday's game.  I'd like to observe more notes on keying from this and other megadungeons to continue improving my technique.
Hi there Alex. Thanks a lot for your feedback!

I will detail the whole level mapped here (I think it might take about 4 posts to go through the whole key) so you'll have other examples to work with pretty soon.

I don't consider myself perfect on that score by any means. What you'll see from the rest of the key is that I can describe some areas at great length, and be more than a little verbose as well, something I'm actually trying to work on, stylistically speaking.

Something to keep very much in mind, however: what you see here on this thread is a writeup I compose from the notes I have in my moleskin notebook. The descriptions in there are sometimes extremely terse, and I have to fill in the blanks for you guys as I copy it on here so you don't have to go "what the heck does he mean?" That makes it long-winded and wordy at times.

Now, when you write something for your table, you are not writing a published module. Therefore, when you build a megadungeon for yourself you absolutely should not feel forced to compose long winded text and explanations like this. If you can look at your notes and see a one line description with just "3 goblins, 3/5/4 HPs" and the rest is visualized in your head it's cool. It ideally should be somewhere in your head though, so that you just don't make stuff up as you run the game (you might run the risk of getting tempted with stuff like bait and switches, railroading and the like if you start just running the game making stuff up as you go along).

When you write a room description, it's a good idea to have nailed down the basic look/feel of the room, the inhabitants and features, whatever treasure can be found. To describe the room just use adjectives you'll be reading when you run the game and describe from there out loud. If I write: "Tunnel. Damp, half flooded. Giant rats swimming around MM p.x, semi-precious stone in the water." I see that when I run the game, and from there I can just describe the whole environment, the feel of the wet stone, the drops of water that fall drip drip drip from the ceiling, the moss, the smell of moisture and crap in the air, the reflection of something shiny in the water, the ripples indicating some movement under water. You see? That actually makes your DMing better, because you're not "reading" the text out loud with a monotone voice and the like. Instead, you just read those few adjectives, a mental picture of the environment comes to your mind, and you describe what you see. It makes it more interactive and alive.

Quote from: Alex
I'd like to share one thing I've done to reduce key space that I haven't seen others doing.  That is grouping collections of related areas together under one key instead of putting in several key entries that reference each other.  For example, I have a goblin lair (of ~100+leaders) in my dungeon the rough size of areas 1 + 5-10 on your map.  I detailed it in 3 entries:  guardpost outside of lair, warrens, and goblin king's (and bodyguards, concubines) suite.  I have the specific monsters, treasure, and traps for the guardpost and king's suite in those entries, and for the dozen or so rooms of the warren I just have a total of all creatures and treasures, a plan of battle which lists the standard tactical response to invaders, and a suggestion of how quickly their numbers get replenished if the whole tribe is not wiped out.
That totally works, sure! That's a good way to organize the information. Any particular way that works for you and doesn't make you flip back and forth between your notes while you run the game is good. That's basically what the key should be for.

Quote from: Alex
Note:  You say guard posts are marked with 'g' and area '1' refers to the nearby guardpost, but the map uses '3' at that guardpost position.  I had to go back and forth from the map and description a few times before I made the connection.  Since you have it mostly in your head and your notes are a reminder for you rather than an explanation for others, I understand.  We just organize our thoughts differently. :-)

Good catch! I make the same mistake for areas (1) and (2). That's because I thought of area (3) as a guardpost before I construed it as an area I had to describe. Thanks! I'm going to correct it right now. :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 20, 2012, 03:11:03 PM
BANDIT LEVEL MAP KEY, PART 2

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C-key-02.jpg)

30 – Prismatic room. A switch can be found hidden within the carvings adorning the ancient sorcerer’s tomb at (29). Pressing it makes the tomb slide northward (thus destroying one of the protrusions against in the NW corner of the room if it hasn’t been destroyed yet). This reveals a secret passage under the tomb’s original position which leads to a corridor stretching westward under the floor. Following this corridor leads to a dead end. Just in front of the dead end a lone lantern of dark metal hangs from the ceiling. Within the lantern shines a single bright yellow flame. The color of the flame seems so intense, so pure, so unnatural, as to be vaguely unsettling to the eye. Searching the area will reveal the presence of a secret door at the end of this corridor.

Simply pushing this door forward or extinguishing the light within the lantern will open it. The flame in the lantern will immediately die, and another bright yellow flame will light up inside the Prismatic room beyond the opened door.

Inside the Prismatic Room lies a huge apparatus seemingly built out of crystal, glass and bronze. It is vaguely reminiscent of an Armillary Sphere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armillary_sphere), with a central spherical body, and seven satellites each held by concentric rings of bronze around it. Each satellite looks like a carefully crafted lantern, and each has a different number of faces: one has four, another six, then eight, twelve, fourteen, twenty and finally thirty-two faces, from the ring closest to the sphere (with the four-sided satellite) to the farthest away (with the twenty-sided satellite).

When the PCs enter the room, the twenty-sided satellite just in front of the door lights up, shining of that same bright yellow light the PCs first saw in the corridor. It then starts to slowly swirl around the huge sphere, constrained in its revolutions by the huge ring of bronze that keeps it in place around the sphere.

Trying to touch the sphere, satellites or rings holding them in will reveal they lack substance (they are not illusions, but exist in a reality different from the room’s).

There are in fact five different secret doors in this room. Each leads to and from a different area of the dungeon (the same in most cases, the exception to this being the green door, which always leads to area (70) of the level, but may be opened from both areas (70) and (77) from the outside of the room – see these specific areas for more information). This room exists in a dimensional rift, and exists at six different places at the same time on this level (see areas highlighted red on the map of the level above).  

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Prismatic.jpg)

On one of the walls of the room the PCs can find a peculiar wand made of bronze and tipped on one end by a clear crystal, and on the other end by a shard of the darkest obsidian (marked W. on the map above). This is a Wand of Illumination and Delumination. It currently holds 12 charges, and allows the wearer to create continuous light or darkness (2 charges), light or darkness (1 charge), or dancing lights (1 charge).

The wand can be used to turn on and off the lights of the seven lanterns around the sphere by simply pointing at them and wishing it (this action does not expand charges).

Extinguishing the yellow light would stop the movement of the satellite holding it, close the door the PCs came from and instantly reignite the lantern in the corridor outside the door. The effect would be similar with any other satellite, its movement, the door and lantern associated with it.

Lighting up one of the satellites in the room would cause it to revolve around the sphere, open the corresponding door and extinguish the torch one can see on the other side of the door’s frame.

Only two of the satellites, the 14-sided and 32-sided ones, cannot be turned on in such a manner. Instead, the doors corresponding to both colors which, when combined, create their hue, must be opened simultaneously, resulting in that single lantern lighting up (instead of the two separate colors associated with the doors).

As mentioned earlier, each satellite has a specific number of faces. Each also burns of a specific hue of light, and each is also lit up by/opens when extinguished a specific secret door inside the room.

4 faces: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahedron) Green, door exiting from area (70).
6 faces: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cube) Blue, door exiting from area (119).
14 faces: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuboctahedron) Indigo (Blue+Violet).
8 faces: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octahedron) Violet, door exiting from area (61).
12 faces: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodecahedron) Red, door exiting from area (84).
32 faces: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icosidodecahedron) Orange (Red + Yellow).
20 faces: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icosahedron) Yellow, door exiting from area (30).

This is the order of the concentric rings holding the different satellites around the sphere, the tetrahedron being the closest to the sphere, the icosahedron the farthest.

Opening a door, from the outside or the inside, lights up the corresponding satellite and extinguishes the corresponding flame of the lantern in the area outside the room (as it did when the PCs came in the first time around, assuming they found area 30 as described above).

Closing a door, from the outside or the inside, keeps the light burning within its corresponding satellite for two full turns, however. This is the only time when the satellite and lantern of the same corresponding color in and outside of the room can burn at the same time. It would be thus possible to turn on the lights of the satellites within, close some specific doors, like say, Blue and Violet to then reopen them simultaneously to light up the Indigo/14 sided lantern as well.

Lighting up the five platonic lanterns in order (green, then blue, then violet, then red, then yellow) will cause a teleporter to become substantial and visible within the sphere. This teleporter leads to a receiver between the prisms at area (65).

Lighting up all the seven satellites in order will have the same effect. In addition, the destination of the teleporter at the end of the central corridor at area (65) will change. Instead of leading to the Cube, it will lead to the Prismatic Tomb (an additional sublevel of the dungeon).

The correct sequence to light up all seven satellites in order: turn on green, turn on blue, close the blue door (blue satellite still lit), open blue and violet doors (lights up indigo satellite), turn on violet, turn on red, close red door (red satellite still lit), open red and yellow doors simultaneously (lights up orange satellite), turn on yellow lantern.

31 – Alien generator. This room may be accessed by humanoids. The space is particularly cramped, however, as it is filled with machinery, gears, levers, strange, long-shaped crystals of various sizes hanging from the ceiling of the room, wiring and the like. The machinery is actually still alive, and hums lightly from within. The sound can be heard 1-in-6 from the immediate environs of the secret room (within 10 feet).

Unfortunately, this room has become the lair of a strange creature also hanging from the ceiling. It looks like a vaguely round protrusion that grew out of the multiple parts of the generator, attached to several of its mechanical elements by strands of what feels like thick, opaque, white saliva, a single, multi-faceted, jewelled eye wobbling at the center of its central mass of protoplasm. This mass itself is covered with saliva, making it hard to distinguish where the thick strands that anchor it to the machinery begin, and where the protoplasm begins. One could possibly spot gems of various sizes and shapes reflecting light sources somewhere within the partly translucent body of this thing.

Use a 3 HD, AC 5, damage 1-4 roper to simulate the creature (MM 83). Entrails may contain 1-4 valuable gems (35% chance). Note this specimen is also completely immune to mundane missile fire. The creature’s hits may cause weakness, but the victims are granted a save v. paralyzation to avoid it.

Fighting this creature in this cramped space could have catastrophic consequences. Fighting in the room itself comes with a – 4 penalty to attack rolls. Missing attack rolls has a 1-in-6 chance of triggering some unwanted effect, including 1-8 points of eldritch damage (similar to an electrocution in feel) and the potential to activate the generator, creating one of the possible random effects: 1) overloading the teleporters of the level, causing them to come back to life and act in an aggressive manner, trying to grab individuals coming too close (within 10 feet) and “process them”, i.e. teleport them with possible failures, mutations and duplications previously described, 2) activating the secondary function of this room as an elevator to the lower waterworks sublevel of this complex, which would cause 2d6 points of crushing damage to the creature as the whole room rips itself apart from its current position to slowly go down to the lower level (it will take 1 full round to complete the decent), 3) sending tremors throughout the level, in effect warning all living creatures within that something is going on. The alchemist, who knows the existence of this secret area, would send some of his underlings to check it out, as well as other spots of the dungeon, such as area (65) or the various known teleporters scattered throughout the level, while the rest of the bandit forces would be put on high alert by the king. 4) deactivate the dweomers keeping most of the undead beyond the walls in a state of slumber. The sound of scratching and bumping would be heard all around the crypt areas on the map (areas (41)+, crypts beyond areas (3) and (10), which I forgot to key earlier, area (29), area (62), areas (63, 64), areas (71-76) most importantly). 5) Opening 2d6 secret doors on the level, with the exception of the secret door at (65) and the doors leading to the Prism room at (30), or 6) overloading the waterworks, in effect flooding the entire sublevel, with the basins at (14), (20), (32) and (47) overflowing generously, and constantly. Other effects are certainly possible.

The Alchemist knows of this area but is unsure how to proceed since he cannot determine whether killing the creature would disable the machinery (it wouldn’t), destroy it (no), or create any other undesirable effects he couldn’t predict on the whole level as a result (it could, see above). He leaves it alone at the moment and keeps it secret from both the Canon and Bandit King, expecting to find the answers he is seeking through the experiments he is currently conducting.

32 – Temple to the Outer Gods. The doors leading to the Temple trapped. Ropes peculiarly woven into the shape of hands hold them shut. Opening the doors causes the ropes to animate and try to punch the unauthorized intruders for 1-3 damage (treat as a 5 HD monster to hit), i.e. those people trying to open the doors not wearing a tentacle talisman such as the one in the Ogrillon’s possession at area (3) (The Canon, Curate, and the cultists going in and out of the Temple regularly all wear one as well). In the same punching movement the rope loosens from the frame of the door as the arm tries to strangle the intruder upon a hit. A saving throw against Rod, Staff or Wand avoids the strangulation effect, the hand getting back into place, holding the door shut. On a failed saving throw, death follows after two minutes (i.e. 2 rounds under AD&D rules). Bend bars checks +20% may be rolled to loosen and break the ropes. Other means (such as cutting the ropes with a knife, etc.) to get rid of the threat are also possible (DM adj.).

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Mummy-rope.jpg)

The walls of this large area are finely carved to represent legions of inhuman beings of different shapes and sizes fighting for supremacy amongst the stars. They travel through many eons of ruthless fighting, far away from their birth places, leaving the black void beyond the known universe depicted straight above the pool of water, at the center of the dome’s surface, to then wander amongst the stars and planets a few sages’ of this world might be able to recognize. They change and evolve as one’s eye wanders down the dome to soon find a world very similar to this one, where they establish outposts, enslave the local life forms and worship their own unknowable masters, some of which are present amongst them on this mockery of a primeval world, while others still float in the ether, waiting for the celestial bodies to align and open doors for them to step through.

Four prisoners are chained to the NW, NE, SW and SE corners of the room. The air is thick with the smell of incense. It is slightly sickening. The prisoners have been subjected to torture and are kept drugged by the clerics worshipping their dark gods in this area. They can be freed if the manacles holding them in position are either shattered, or open with the keys currently in the possession of the Curate.

The prisoners are:

Smuhana (s-moo-ana), daughter of Acskamun (axe-kamoon) of the Nu’ana (noo-a-na, or “the Folk”, the people native of this area), the shaman once imprisoned north in the gaols (this is what Smuhana still believes) but who has since been used in the alchemist’s experiments (see area 59). 0-level common folk.
Muhala Monokay (moo-ah-lah mo-no-kay), Smuhana’s guardian, betrothed to her by Acskamun. 1st level fighter.
Roedd O’ggroy, one of the recent settlers from the valley; was taken prisoner as he was hunting down the slopes of the volcano. 1st level ranger.
Powell Alferson, an interesting fellow one could easily mistake for a Viking from the area. Powell is in fact an allied soldier from World War 2 who somehow found his way into this dimension after confronting some strange Nazi cult back on his home world, and later got caught by the brigands of this area. 2nd level fighter.

(Alternately, the DM might start PCs as prisoners in this area, and set up an escape situation as the start of the game, the objective being to escape the hideout and/or retrieve some specific possessions, or individuals/allies kept prisoners in the gaols.)

There is a 2-in-6 chance to see the Canon and a 3-in-6 chance to see the Curate present in this room. 3-6 assistants may also be present, tending to the braziers, cleaning up the room after a ritual, taunting the prisoners for the fun of it, etc (use bandit stats). Note that this room is sometimes used for rituals and sacrifices, especially, involving the giant snake from area (20). These rituals are taking place every once in a while, without any particular reason or precise intervals.

33 - The Canon’s room. The door is kept locked at all times. The Canon of the Temple of the Outer Gods decorated this room with intertwined branches of cedar trees taken from the forest surrounding the volcano. They form organic, mystical patterns around the room only its make can effectively decipher. There is a 2-in-6 chance of finding the Canon here either resting, praying or scribbling his thoughts away feverishly.

Galeb Gaa-nub is a thin, somber, middle-aged man with a dark complexion, long black hair and intense brown eyes. He is meticulous, well-learned, and maintains an outstanding library of scrolls describing the constellations and movement of the stars in the sky, gathering pieces of knowledge about what may lie beyond, hinting at the secrets of this world and others besides. This incredible collection is kept in a large chest secured to the floor of the room. It is trapped via mechanical (poisoned needles) and magical (cause blindness) means. The collection is extremely valuable (2,000 GP) to those who could crack Galeb’s personal code of transcription, which is a melange of multiple dead languages he created over years and years of study. The scrolls are very fragile, however, and getting them out of the chest without damaging them would require extreme caution on the PCs’ part.

Also locked into the chest is a strange painted wooden mask of unknown origin (it looks like the stylized face of a bird with four tentacles on each side of the mask, see below). This Octopus mask is the key to the teleporter at the end of the middle corridor at (65).

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/DKnox_OctopusMask_V2.jpg)

Octopus mask, by David Knox (Kwakwaka'wakw Nation).

When worn, the Octopus mask allows its wearer to use ESP, Forget, and Suggestion once a day.

On a desk nearby, the PCs can find Galeb’s journal (build as handout to PCs). He records here his own progress in discovering the secrets and general purpose of this complex. He knows of the existence of the Prismatic room (30) and notes that “there must be more to this room than the doors – the colors mean something, the apparatus must serve some ancillary purpose unknown to me, permutations must be key,” ponders lighting all the room’s satellites up but fears the consequences. He describes what he believes the frescos in the Temple represent, laments about the discovery of the three doors at (65) which cannot be operated without the Alchemist’s consent since “he stole part of the answer to the enigma, and exhibits his find on his own person for anyone to see!” The hatred Galeb feels for the Alchemist knows no bounds. He vows to get rid of him as soon as he can, planning on demonstrating the power of the place to the king and convince him that the gods have planned for them to settle here, rejecting the “meddling of charlatans and artificers in their noble endeavour.” He also refers to the untapped source of energy of area (the levitating crystal at 49), wonders if there is an area that would control it, and suspects the Alchemist knows of its location (he does, see area 31).

Galeb is a 6th level Neutral Evil Cleric who’s devotion to the Outer Gods is complete (35 HP, AC 4, Club – an ancestral root stolen from Acskamun of the Nu’ana – +1, 2 potions of neutralize poison, 4 pieces of incense of meditation, a ring of snake charming, a scroll scribed with protection from good and cure disease, 32 GP and four rubies worth 100 GP each on his person, and a tentacle amulet around his neck).

34 – The Curate’s room. Also locked at all times. The Curate of the Temple, Leif Olafson, a strong, focused individual of Viking stock corrupted long ago by Canon Galeb Gaa-nub, maintains his bare living quarters in this room. No decorations, no extravaganza of any kind, here. Just a bed, a table and a stool, some water, and a couple of large leather bags are stored within.

The Curate is not a particularly bright man, but he believes in the Canon’s cause and remains loyal to him. He is a LE 4th level Cleric, 24 HP, AC 4, and carries around a war-hammer that is the only item he has left from his father who repudiated him at a young age (he stole the ancestral weapon as he escaped his father’s household). The maul-wielding lunatic of area (11) is a relative. Leif Olafson has the keys opening the manacles keeping the Temple’s prisoners in place in his possession. He also wears a tentacle amulet. He has 10 platinum and 38 GP in a purse at his side, a scroll of hold person, and a potion of healing. In the room here the PCs can find a short bow, 3 black-fletched arrows +1 and 12 green-fletched arrows which were confiscated from Roedd, the ranger prisoner at (32).

35 – Temple supplies. Include embalmment supplies, tools such as hooks, serrated knifes, spices and perfume, canopy jars, robes for the recruits of the Temple, 2 tentacle amulets, masks to wear during ceremonies and the like. Operating table and glass jars filled with some preserving liquid also present. Some of the canopy jars are already full. Organs inside may animate if disturbed. A particular hook is made of some unknown reflecting metal. It is long, thin, with an ivory handle. It is used to extract brains from the skull through the nose and is magical, allowing the extraction of the brain in such a manner as to unfold it through the nose and reform it, intact, in one of the glass jars nearby.

36 – Temple supplies. Idem (35).

37, 38, 39, 40 – Large vaulted corridors. These corridors stretch in a cross pattern from the Temple. Each of the corridors include caryatid columns in the shape of warriors from another age. The bandits consider these to be some sort of guardian spirits of the place. The Canon doesn’t discourage them in that belief. Little offerings like food, wine, little scrolls with personal messages left on the floor near the pedestals. The statues animate on random intervals. When the PCs show up in any of these corridors, roll for a random encounter. There is additionally 1-in-6 chance to see the caryatid columns animate and go about their round. If the PCs engage in combat in any one of those corridors the caryatid columns will animate and stop the fighting by killing the intruders (they will not discriminate between the current occupants of the dungeon and the PCs, their builders being long gone. They will however ignore the undead, if they are roaming around the level, and might in effect side with them if a fight breaks out against the undead, since they will try to stop the fighting by killing the living!). The large doors to the Temple are protected with magical ropes. See (32).

41 – Ancient crypts. The resting place of the soldiers who served in this garrison such a long time ago, these crypts’ existence is unknown to the current occupants of the level, though they may be starting to wonder. Most of the bodies here are in fact undead, but dormant. They are everywhere: in alcoves, on the ground (skulls, tibias, hands), standing up as though they were mummified, frozen in time against the walls, lying against each other, etc. These are mostly skeletons and zombies, but there could be others, including malformed magical aberrations and cysts comparable to those found in area (29), if you wish to make this area a real hellish place to behold. Treasure is immensely variable, but includes no coin. Bits of weapons and armor, maybe some jewels may be found with a thorough search of the area. Random treasure generation is advised (use O, P and Q treasure types from the MM, with 20% chance of finding any 2 magical items).

Upon entering the central area of the crypts (marked with the actual number 41 on the map), the PCs will discover a shrine against the southern wall of the room. Give them a round or two to investigate. Then, 3-30 skeletons and 3-24 zombies will animate at different locations in and outside the room (in alcoves in the corridors, on the ground, etc. you can position groups of them randomly if desired with d8 for cardinal directions relative to the PCs). These undead will follow the intruders and try to kill them. They are mindless, and thus would not react to the presence of the current inhabitants of the complex in the same way the wight at (29) would. These will just kill indiscriminately adventurers and bandits alike until they are hindered (by blocking their way, closing the doors allowing them to exit an area, for instance) or destroyed.

The shrine itself hides a secret passage that leads to more crypts, including some tombs built for the leaders of the garrison (see 43, 44, 45).

If the wight at (29) realizes that the level has been taken over by intruders (the bandits et al.), he will make his way back to his lair, then down the secret passage from there to this shrine, where he will perform a ritual to awaken the soldiers resting in this place. This would basically alter the entirety of the level, as the undead from the crypts would exit the area and attempt to purge the level entirely. This would change the dynamics of the level and make it quickly change into a warzone. This could also be a trigger to an open fight between the different factions of the bandits to seize control of the group for their own ends (thinking of the Canon and Alchemist going at each others’ throats here in particular). Assume that these crypts here can generate 30 skeletons and 24 zombies per day, up to 200 individuals of each type, if necessary, unless the shrine is properly cleansed by the forces of Good using holy water, proper rites and spells, maybe requiring the presence of a Cleric and/or Paladin in the group, or not (up to the DM), OR the wight from area (29) who performs the ritual awakening the undead in this area is destroyed.

42 – Shrine to the deities of the Underworld. This area, like the rest of the crypts at this level, is littered with corpses. The western part of the room opens on a huge bottomless pit, however. All around it, in man-sized alcoves around the room, stand different statues representing some of the Sorcerer Kings of old, praying here in eternal silence, looking over the dark well before them. These are no caryatid columns, but real statutes with a particularly creepy appearance.

Above the well floats some type of stone idol with a look similar to the teleporters of the level, like some kind of twisted ball flesh and protoplasm, with eyes, tentacles, arms and legs all fossilized for centuries.

Anybody standing near the well can hear the low whispers coming out of it. They tell the stories of the lords of a bygone era, speak about their glories and failures, their lives and tribulations, as well as their ultimate fates. The voices seem able to recognize who it is they are talking to, and target specific individuals with different lies which, they hope, will enthral them to their doom. What the ultimate goals of the voices below exactly are remains unknown to your servant, despite many unfruitful attempts to uncover them. It is therefore advised you made up your own as you run the game, with specific saving throws to accompany them.

The voices might want the characters to jump and touch the fossilized ball of protoplasm. What could it be? An alien creature waiting here for some sign? Another teleporter? Leading to where? Or the voices might want them come down the well and meet them. What exactly lies at the bottom is hard to tell, but is sure to present its own lot of challenges for them. They could end up in a limbo between the Material Plane and the many Hells which are rumoured to exist, or discover the remnants of the long forgotten cities built by beings alien to our world. They could find the remains of those to whom these voices belonged so long ago, and might be requested to find them proper resting places. They might want to know what happened to this world they knew and, quite possibly despising the answers given to them, might attempt to charm some of the characters to go and wake the sorcerer at (29) so he may wake the soldiers of the crypts.

43, 44, 45 – Tombs. From the secret door located behind the shrine in the main area of the crypts (41), a corridor with yet more bodies can be accessed. Roll d6 when the PCs step inside the corridor. A group of 2-20 skeletons (1-2), 2-16 zombies (3-4) or both (5) might awaken to protect the place, though there is a slim chance to avoid an ambush altogether (6). Whenever the PCs attempt anything that causes concussions, loud noises, in effect disturbing the rest of the soldiers entombed here, roll another d6, though the undead can only be awakened once per intrusion in this manner (i.e. if you roll an encounter and they fight their way through, don’t roll again and again).

The doors to either of the tombs (43) and (44) are sealed (and locked), and protected by gas traps. Breaking the seals disturbs the entombed soldiers (roll d6 as above). Unlocking the doors triggers the release of a greenish gas inside the corridor which is supposed to kill anyone breathing it, but it has greatly weakened with time, instead triggering a sickness on a failed saving throw against poison which will cause the victims to fight at diminished capacities (-4 to attack rolls) and generate both nausea and respiratory complications which in time will turn into actual disorders if left untreated, i.e. loss of 1 point each of strength and constitution, with 1-12 months to live, see DMG 13-14). Needless to say, the undead are completely immune to these effects.

Areas (43) and (44), though being of slightly different dimensions, are actually quite similar in layout, with just enough room for their respective sarcophagus. There is a critical difference, however: area (43) is a real tomb; area (44) is an elaborate trap hiding the real resting place of the individual that is supposed to be there.

Area (43) is the tomb of an unnamed lady, probably the wife or mistress of the leader of the troops stationed in this area at the time of the Sorcerer Kings. The room is decorated of various faded paintings representing her in some unknown battles, summoning the spirits of the dead or charming the enemy to her aid. She must have been an enchantress, or magic user of some type.

The tomb is magically trapped. Any detection of magic will reveal the lid of the tomb bears some dweomers of unknown power. If the lid of the tomb is lifted, a blast of energy will spread about 50 feet in all directions. All living beings within range will feel a wave of decay washing of their own bodies and souls. This wave of magical death will awaken the undead anywhere within range, and brand those who fail their saving throw versus spells as specific intruders to be destroyed. They will age 2-24 years immediately, and be magically ordered to go back to area (41) and wait for their death. Stopping them, slapping them etc allows victims to make another saving throw. Victims that succeed in their saving throw against spells age 2-8 years instead and feel discomforted, with a -2 penalty to their attack rolls. They will want to leave the place immediately, but their own minds retain control of their thoughts and can fight these urges back without any die rolls.

The lady in the sarcophagus will animate if the lid of her sarcophagus is lifted. Treat her as a 4 HD zombie. She will first try to cast a spell but will not be able to (her magical powers are now nonexistent, and it is just a reflex of her once living self). She will then try to assault the intruders with her bare hands, screaming of an extinguished voice as she tries to tear them to pieces (AC 5, HP 20). Inside the sarcophagus, the PCs might find the remnants of a long blade that has long ceased to be of any use, a round shield in pitiful state but with an immaculate shield boss or umbo. This is an umbo +1 which could be salvaged from the shield and attached to a new one, making it in effect a +1 shield.  The lady’s scale mail is decorated with silver foil, and could be sold for about 300 GP.

Area (44) is 30 feet long vaulted room that looks like a half cylinder oriented east-west. It is a false tomb dedicated to the ‘Chained Lord’. He is represented in various frescos around the room as a war leader leading chained human beings he directs in battle as crazed beasts with a whip in one hand and a firm grip on the chains in the other. In one scene he is seen selling his soul to shadowy spirits, probably in exchange for the supernatural powers he must have enjoyed in life. Careful PCs will notice that the paint on the wall is damaged in some area, and feels almost burnt or melted in places (a clue as to the nature and existence of the trap, of course).

The trap here is of purely mechanical nature. It is not the sarcophagus of the Chained Lord that lies in this room (it is in area 45 instead), but a unknown slave dressed in his robes instead. Lifting the lid of the sarcophagus will show the mummified corpse of what looks like the Chained Lord, armed with his whip, wearing chains all around him. Any attempt to pull the whip, or move the body around to check the contents of the sarcophagus will trigger the trap: the door to the room will close instantly, a wall section falling from the ceiling in the corridor and blocking the exit. The entire floor of the room will then rotate on an east-west axis and reveal the second half of the cylinder under the room, which is filled with low burning acid, its walls seemingly made of glass, crystal, or comparably translucent material.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Cylinder.jpg)

The sarcophagus in the center of the room will remain in place, the chained body and its implements remaining in place as well. The floor will stop moving after it has made a 180 degrees rotation, leaving the occupants of the room trapped in the glassed lower half section of the cylinder, dipped in acid, taking 1-4 damage each round. Looking around, the PCs will find cracks in the glass-like wall around them. They can actually break through the wall by succeeding an Open Doors check at no penalty. Any PC who succeeds will break the wall. The glass shatters immediately, emptying its contents in the room below, which leads to the apparatus that kept this trap working all this time and the waterworks sublevel of the dungeon it is located in.

Area (45) is accessible through a secret door located in the curved northern wall of area (44). It is the real resting place of the Chained Lord. There he rests on a stone slab, wearing his armour, holding his chains linked to long-dead slaves lying on the floor in one hand, and his dark whip in the other. The 6 slaves all wear 1-3 various pieces of gold jewellery worth about 20 GP a piece. The Chained Lord himself wears a golden, faded splint mail armour +1 and his whip +1. The various perfumes and offerings left with the war lord in this tomb are worth about 800 GP.

All this company will of course animate if the PCs try to disturb them. The warlord will conduct his slaves, all 3 HD zombies, against his intended victims. The warlord himself (AC 3, HP 30) counts as a 4 HD skeleton. Each time the warlord whips one of his slaves instead of attacking the PCs, that slave regains 1 full HD to keep on fighting.

46 – Teleporter. Similar to the teleporter of (28), this is one of the main eight teleporters of the level. See area (9, 10) for more information.

47 – Great Hall of the King. This is the grand audience room of the kind of the bandits. There are 5-30 bandits present here at all times, and sometimes more, especially when the king receives guests. The subjects of the king are mostly rejects, brigands and beggars under his protection. Try to make this Cour des Miracles look as strange, varied, and creepy as possible. Many of them keep their effects in this room (which are generally poor, and not very valuable – determine randomly), which makes it smell and look like a stable, or some tavern’s common room that wouldn’t have been washed for weeks. The king’s throne (or rather, bed) is set up on a moving platform that is generally located along the eastern wall of the room (think Jabba’s platform in Star Wars episode VI and you’re on the right track here).

The floor sections directly in front of the two main entrances (north and south along the eastern wall of the room) and the area directly in front of the platform are all camouflaged pit traps which, when triggered by the king, suck their victims into them and then back into the water flow that runs under this room directly to the large pool of water south of the room, where the large snake from (20) is summoned. The king then watches as the victims are eaten by his pet snake.

Olderbert the First, the Beggar King, will be present in the room 3-in-6. Oldebert looks slow and relatively harmless as the obese, bloated, drunken mockery of a man he seems to have become, but he is in fact a terribly effective warrior (8th level fighter, 50 HP, AC 2, Cleaver +2, potion of heroism, healing, bracers controlling the automatons from (54), ring of protection +2). He is always flanked by his throne’s porters, 6 bodyguards (themselves 2nd level fighters) and the three faithful hounds he feeds regularly with fresh cuts of meat…

There is also a 2-in-6 chance that his right arm, a mysterious fallen knight only going by the name of the Malachite (7th level fighter in a green full plate +2, AC 0, handling a pitch black two-handed sword +2, the works), will be present as well. Some other underlings (as described in the bandit roster) may very well be there as well (DM discretion, don’t over do it, with the King, the bodyguards, the Malachite... this is some tough opposition right there. Assaulting this room at low level without assistance, an actual plan, previous infiltration and information gathering etc would be pure suicide).

Note that there is also a 2-in-6 chance to see the envoys of the Ash Kadaï (see 25, 26, 27) present in the room. They may or may not join the hostilities if a fight occurs in the room. They might even consider themselves directly targeted, in which case they might try to force their way out of the level regardless of the opposition, bandits, PCs, etc.

48 – Kitchen. This area is similar to the Kitchen at (8).

49 – Levitating crystal. A strange block of vaguely phosphorescent crystal floats in this room. It is pierced with multiple needles of dark iron which themselves are linked to the walls of the room via strange looking wires and cables. The crystal itself emits some sort of low hum barely audible if one isn’t standing right next to the thing. Some of the cables clearly show some sign of not having been disturbed in quite a while (dust, cobwebs etc).

This crystal is one of the main sources of energy for this level installed there by the servitors of the Sorcerer Kings eons ago based on what they understood of their predecessors (the Builders themselves). It is impervious to most sources of damage but the brute force of blunt weapons and objects. Touching it with bare hands results in electrocution (assume a shocking grasp spell from a 1st level magic user, each subsequent electrocution adding 1 to the level of the caster).

The bandits, and particularly the Canon and the Alchemist, are aware of the existence of this crystal and are leaving it alone for now, not knowing what effect experimentations would have on it (which is very wise). Cutting any of the cables or damaging the crystal itself could have some serious effects on the level: teleporters ceasing to function or overloading, opening of random secret doors on the level, activation of emergency routines on the waterworks… nothing might happen, but the potential for some calamity or other to happen is great. See area (31) for inspiration.

50 – Treasury vault and mimic. Some of the riches stolen by the bandits are stored in this locked room. The guard posts nearby are always fully manned, and they are changed regularly, since they maintain surveillance both on this area granting access to the treasury here and the King’s apartments, as well as the King’s main hall directly south of this area. The treasure itself consists of a wide collection of various valuable items including coins, plates, goblets and gems.  Contained at any time: treasure type E (see MM). A mimic guards the vault in the very original form of a locked chest (AC 7, 48 HP, see MM 70).

51 – The King’s audience room. This is where the Beggar King receives his guests with some privacy. There is a 1-in-6 chance of finding him here conversing with one of the envoys of the Ash Kadaï (see 25, 26, 27 Visitors area).

52 – The King’s apartments. These are the apartments of Oldebert the First. Furniture seems expensive and delicate, but their styles don’t match, since all the pieces have been scavenged from various attacks and robberies organized by the King’s servitors over the years. Perfumes, drapes, wigs and powders might be worth something for the PCs. There is a secret door leading to the Toys’ exposition room along left of the northern wall (the shape here might betray the position of the door to the astute observer). The door leading west to his personal treasure chamber is trapped mechanically and magically (with the particular effects changed regularly by the engineer from (3) and the alchemist, use random trap generations to determine), is reinforced and locked (the King wears the key around his neck).

53 – The King’s treasure. This is the personal treasure trove of His Bloated Lordship, King Oldebert the First. Treasure type E, O, S (see MM). A spectator (MM2 112; AC 4/7, HP 34) has been left in this room to guard the treasure. This rather lazy spectator is large and overweight for its species: it might easily pass for a full-blown beholder with atrophied eye stalks (scare the crap out of your players, DMs). It will want to parley however, unless directly attacked. It is polite, and rather condescending. If the PCs decide to talk with him and clearly mistake him for a beholder, he will try to take advantage of the situation and will ‘let them go if they make some small offering to the treasure kept in his care’, in fact keeping any such offerings for itself. It is also rather humorous and will appreciate good company. it will not let the PCs touch the trove, however, but almost would like to, since he longs to return to Nirvana.

54 – The Toy collection. This is where the automatons built by the alchemist can be found. The room itself is round, with a center dais area where the largest toys are on display. Two large panels can slide open to directly connect this room to the storage rooms directly north of this area (see map, the arrows along the walls of the room showing the way the panels slide to open each a 35 degrees passage to their respective storage areas).

Any sorts of automatons can be found there: toy soldiers, horses on wheels, jack-in-a-box, little mechanical fairies. Treat as animated objects per spell PH 51. There are currently a little more than a dozen different automatons in this room. More are being worked on in the storage areas.

These automatons are not built for combat, and will not react to manipulation, pokes and the like. Only the King may animate them and direct them to attack specific targets by using a series of knobs and buttons integrated to one of the bracers he is wearing (see area 47). Since they are not built for combat, they fight using their arms and bodies to hit their opponents awkwardly (see PH 51). Unbeknownst to the King, the alchemist has made a copy of the bracers commanding these automatons for himself.

55, 56 – The Toy storage areas. These are specific workshop areas for the automatons being worked on by the alchemist. Half finished toys, body parts, etc can be found there. 1d4 toys might be operational, and commanded by the bracers as well. The upper and lower halves of a unicorn, mechanical squids walking on their tentacles and owls flying noisily about, a giant mechanical ettin carrying one of its two heads in its hands, are all possibilities.

57 – The Alchemist’s audience room. This is where Xaelaandder Bey, the self-proclaimed Hexarch of Voidg, the King’s alchemist, receives his own visitors (1-in-6). The room is richly decorated with animal pelts, cushions, a low table with a prominent crystal ball (fake), braziers with smoking incense. Couple hundred GP’s worth of furniture et al, maybe.

58 – The Alchemist’s workshop. This is where Xaelaandder Bey tries to replicate the magic and technology of the ancients. He is found here 1-in-6. He studies the dungeon carefully, is aware of the existence of a number of secret areas, such as the alien generator at (31), the black sphere at (62), the doors at (65), knows how the teleporters work and the function of the huge levitating crystal at (49), etc. Here, the alchemist works at his own teleporters (one is actually working, see 59), tries extract energy from a variety of crystals with little success, and tries to maintain life in certain body parts (successfully). The body parts may attack if disturbed. They are kept in cages along the eastern wall of the room, like caged animals, and seem inanimate at first glance (could use giant rats stats for those, as the ‘things’ from area 29).

The alchemist’s apprentices, Lienoc Nerau (from the barony of Llieth) and Creihem Y’rej (both 3rd level magic users with one or two scrolls and a potion each), and Kamia, his trusted Homunculus (MM 53, AC 6, 10 HP), are usually found here working (5-in-6 each).

59 – The Alchemist’s quarters. These are the private quarters of Xaelaandder Bey. The magic user rests here, and keeps some of his possessions in a locked chess under the bed. The contents include 240 coppers, 120 silver, 500 gold, 10 platinum, a copy of the king’s bracers controlling the automatons at areas (54, 55, 56), a potion of gaseous form and one of water-breathing, his spellbook, and a scroll carrying the spells dimension door, clairvoyance, levitate, light and hold portal. The chest also contains some notes of the alchemist pondering some of the purposes of the features of this level (handouts).

There are alcoves carved all along the northern wall of this room. Some of them contain glass jars. Within these glass jars are floating the severed heads of various people the Alchemist tried to keep alive. There is also a metal box there about the same size as the glass jars (this is an authentic brain from the Builder’s era recovered by the alchemist).

On the table near the bed (against the wall next to the door) are interesting crystal spikes or probes of some sort linked by copper wiring to a strange black box. These are instruments used to actually communicate with the severed heads kept in the alcoves. One could insert the crystal probes into the base of the neck of a severed head, and a voice would then come out of the black box, allowing a brief conversation (2d3 rounds, up to a turn). One can see the jaw of the severed head linked to the black box in such a fashion move by reflex, while the voice seems cold, artificial, and disincarnated.

Amongst the heads here one could have a conversation with is Gamesh, a half-orc of the Ash Kadaï who knows about the mines and could describe them to the PCs (level 1a of our dungeon), Acskamun of the Nu’ana (see the prisoners at area 32 for more information), some bandits who have fallen in disgrace or betrayed the alchemist in favour of the Canon, and others.

The metal box contains an ancient brain which was once used by the Mi-Go Builders themselves. The probes fit into the box via neat plugs which actually provided the template necessary to the alchemist to create the probes in the first place. The brain speaks an archaic language, and is quite confused. It can describe some of the outlandish things it has seen in most cryptic way, allude to the existence of level 2b, the Tomb of the Builders, speak of Yuggoth and probably much more… The brain itself might have some psionic abilities, and may want to take control of one or more PCs to get out of this level. For what purpose exactly remains to be seen…

Xaelaandder Bey might be found here about 2-in-6 (if he has not appeared anywhere yet of course. If he still hasn’t shown up in your game, decide his whereabouts – he might be at the workshop, in the grand hall talking to the King, plotting against the Canon somewhere else). The alchemist is a 7th level magic user (AC 5, HP 18) wearing a capricious robe of scintillating colors (the robe is actually intelligent and doesn’t necessarily want to help), bracers of defense AC 5 and a mask covering half of his face (see area 65 for more information about this mask).

Also of note is the teleporter in the eastern corner of the room. This one looks like a smooth pillar of clay that only animates when one approaches it, in a manner similar to the other teleporters of the level. It actually works, and will teleport the person stepping into it back to the surface, exiting from a similar pillar of clay standing in the woods close to the volcano’s slopes. The teleporters do not work both ways, however, and one may not enter this level from the forest through them (the experience is actually damaging, since the pillar in the forest will try to absorb the subject, partly decalcify its body to then reject it again instantly...).

60 – The magic fountain. This fountain's effects are known by the bandits who found it here when they settled on this level. There is a graffiti next to it that translates “Drink not lest thou be consumed!” Anyone drinking the weird murky water of this fountain will regain 1d6 hit points, but his alignment will also secretly change to its polar opposite for the next 24 hours at least (the victim will make one saving throw against spells every day at dusk afterwards, a success indicating the effect finally dissipated). Just explain to the player that his alignment changes and let him role play the change to the best of his ability. Note that his new self is fully aware of the change and takes it as some sort of revelation, or awakening to his ‘true self’. He also realizes that suddenly appearing completely different to his companions might land him into a lot of trouble. Let the player take it away from there. Alternately, you might allow some characters to role play a conflict between the original and new alignment fighting for control. The goal is to have fun through role playing opportunities, not to take away player freedom.

61 – Prismatic room. A violet lantern hangs next to the magic fountain and right in front of the secret door leading to area (61). See area (30) for more information about the Primatic room.

62 – The Black Sphere. This chamber is exceptionally dark. Any light source produced will cause 1d4 Shadows (MM 86) to animate, reaching from the darkness to seize the intruders. If the PCs proceed without using any light source, note that the characters with infravision etc will not see either. As they explore the place in complete darkness they will feel hands touching them, poking at them, caressing them. At the end of the area, after a couple of turns, the characters might find a sphere about 2 feet in diameter levitating, shining of such blackness as to be utterly visible in the surrounding darkness. If the PCs mistake this for a sphere of annihilation, don’t correct them. Let them come to their own conclusions, whether to try to manipulate the sphere, avoid the area, and so on. This sphere is actually a portal to worlds beyond our own, or far away places in the dark, however you want to set it up. It could be a portal to the Underworld below, deep within the same dungeon, or lead to a completely different dungeon of your own making, or to some dark void in the outer planes, the abyss, the legendary city of N’kai, whichever fits your campaign.

63, 64 – The Bleeding crypts. All the walls surrounding this area bleed profusely whenever living creatures stand fifteen feet or less away from them. Monitor closely the movements of the PCs. If the party walks into the corridor leading to the Temple at (38) and examines the caryatid columns standing there, for instance, they might notice one of the statues crying blood. Likewise, walking around the other corridors next to this area might reveal some blood pouring out of the mortar, between the bricks, etc.

The two main accesses to this area are behind the caryatid column at (38), a secret passage opening onto a ladder going down into the crypts, or through a secret door one can find in the first (empty) room left when going down the stairs westward from (38).

This area is in fact a crypt similar to (41). This crypt is half flooded with blood pouring from the walls, however. Rotting bodies float here and there. The walls are completely covered with some type of black tumours of dead flesh, worse than the tomb of the ancient sorcerer itself produces, that seem to give birth through long periods of gestations to dead bodies that keep feeding these grounds in a grotesque mockery of life. Once in a while, one of these bodies is actually conscious, animated with a shred of self-awareness and a never ending hunger within. These are ghouls that will then feed on the corpses produced by this horrible organism. They are half drunk, half awake, having waited there for years upon years of moaning and dreaming and feeding, and will attack any living being immediately to experience for the first time the pleasure of warm flesh and living fluids (12 ghouls, see MM 42). Determine treasure randomly (B, T), treasure which can be found by thoroughly hacking and slashing through the tumours that grew out of the walls and tombs centuries after they were deposited there.

Key to be continued… (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=592579#post592579)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Garnfellow on September 22, 2012, 10:21:48 AM
A great dungeon map just cries out for exploration, key or no key, and this is a mother-fucking great map.

The interesting question to me is what makes a great map great. An open structure that invites exploration and interesting looking rooms is an important part of it, but not the whole thing.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 22, 2012, 03:20:31 PM
Quote from: Garnfellow;584488
A great dungeon map just cries out for exploration, key or no key, and this is a mother-fucking great map.

Thanks, man. Your feedback is much appreciated. I'm glad you like the map, and yes, totally: at the end of the day, if you can just scavenge maps or parts of maps or even some inspiration here and there to draw your own, it's a win at the end of the day, totally.

Quote from: Garnfellow;584488
The interesting question to me is what makes a great map great. An open structure that invites exploration and interesting looking rooms is an important part of it, but not the whole thing.


My first reflex would be to answer "practice," as in, drawing maps and thereby, developing not only the skills but the feelings of what makes a map good in the end, but that's the start of an answer, a cop-out that begs a "why?" to be answered.

It's a really hard question. We've gone in the previous posts into the crafting of an environment that can have multiple paths of exploration with different play experiences, how to avoid the railroading aspect of bottle necks and room after room lined up linearly, and Melan's analysis of dungeon layouts (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=21794) and the Jaquaying the Dungeon (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-dungeon) piece of Justin go into a lot of detail into this aspect of map design.

Aesthetics are also part of the equation, no doubt. And I don't mean just the ability of producing a "pretty" map (that's actually pretty inconsequential as far as a *great* map is concerned, IMO), but more of a sense of balance, variety and consistency throughout the design. When you build the map, you have to have different types of environment in the game that are recognizable on the map as well, so areas you can differenciate at a glance on the map itself help in that sense. Yet, you want to have an environment that makes sense as a whole, that doesn't feel like it's just disjointed bits and pieces that have been put together randomly, but rather that there is a purpose and design that developed over the years to give us the present layout.

These two components of variety and consistency in the design are not opposites, but instead partners in helping you visualize the environment in order to build a coherent, yet varied and ultimately, enjoyable milieu to explore.

The question of the scale of the map participates in framing these elements. You want the map to represent an area large enough to include this variety and coherence to the whole. There might be this notion out there that designing maps of lairs (i.e. smaller dungeons) instead of entire levels (i.e. larger dungeons) is easier and more manageable. In my experience that's in fact not automatically the case when you keep those elements in mind, because the smaller the scale of the map, the less space you have to work with, the harder it is to maximize the variety of the environment and the multiplicity of choices for the players, i.e. player agency. It follows then that, logically, the larger the scale of the map, the harder it becomes to keep a sense of coherence to the whole, as opposed to this collection of disjointed pieces that don't make sense together.

What that means is that the scale of the map comes with its own set of design challenges, and that, as far as a full level of a megadungeon is concerned, there must be something of a happy medium, a range of shades in the middle of the spectrum of possibilities from very small to very large where these two elements, variety and coherence, work seemlessly together.

The balance of a map isn't just about variety and consistency though. It's about the use of space, what attracts the eye (focal points, like the round staircase in the middle of our map here, or the various pools of water and how they frame the picture, the alignment of the cube, the round staircase and the Temple at 32, etc.) on the map, the repeating patterns you can discern in the design (the shape of the round areas scattered throughout the level, the Prismatic room itself, the spread of teleporters etc.), the way the corridors are intertwined, at which distance of one another, how they go under and above each other when they cross, the use of staircases and levels within the levels to make that happen, and so on.

At the end of the day, to me, all that work is more instinctive that it is absolutely conscious all the steps of the way. I do think about some of these aspects and ask myself a lot of questions when I consider the various elements of the map on the drafts and so on, but some of it, a lot of it really just comes as I draw, then I look back and think "this looks like crap" or "cool, nice shapes coming in there".

It's a bit like having a sense of taste as far as clothes are concerned. Some people are instinctively good at it. They just know what looks good and not so good for them to wear. And others aren't as good at first, but can learn to have discernible choices with time and practice. Or the way writing starts as awkward and self-conscious, how you look back at every sentence and try to correct yourself constantly, versus the more experienced practitian who'll just pop his 10 pages and only then will have a look back checking here and there if what came out was alright or needs significant revisions. It's the sort of feel and eye that can come more or less naturally to some people, but that is ultimately cultivated and sharpened through years of practice.

You start out mapping stuff and you like some things and not others. You spend time on various things that don't quite please you or you second-guess yourself all the way. And yet by doing these things it becomes easier to map the next, and the next, and the next, up to the point you start mapping instinctively, and these things just flow from the act of drawing the thing itself.

Don't know if I'm making much sense here, but these are the first thoughts that came to mind.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Garnfellow on September 25, 2012, 09:26:32 AM
Quote from: Benoist;584544
Aesthetics are also part of the equation, no doubt. And I don't mean just the ability of producing a "pretty" map (that's actually pretty inconsequential as far as a *great* map is concerned, IMO), but more of a sense of balance, variety and consistency throughout the design. When you build the map, you have to have different types of environment in the game that are recognizable on the map as well, so areas you can differenciate at a glance on the map itself help in that sense.
I think this is getting close to the mark. Draftsmanship is nice, but not the whole thing. Take the Halls of Undermountain (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WC516C6XyKk/UDjEvTtwNyI/AAAAAAAAAiU/mzdr_H7HdNc/s1600/Undermountain+Level+1.jpg), for example. This is a professionally drawn "pretty" map, but it really does not cry out to me.

When you think of aesthetics, you typically think of things like symmetry and balance and proportion. But part and parcel of the dungeon experience is exploration, and too much symmetry in a dungeon map kills that. "Oh, there was an alcove over here to the west, so there must be one over here on the east."

But too much randomness just looks like noise and has little appeal. Over the years I've generated a shit ton of maps using good ole Appendix A, and at a certain point you have to step in and guide the process or the dice alone will probably give you a boring map. (Like a thousand monkeys banging on a typewriter for centuries, it's possible you would get something great eventually.)

So while your map doesn't have symmetry, exactly, it does have these repeating visual features that catch the eye. For example, the chain of circular pools stringing from rooms 14, 20, 32, and 47. Or the series of octagonal rooms in the southwest corner. My eye immediately gets pulled to those, and from there I start wondering "how would one get into those rooms beyond area 16, since there's no door?" Which naturally leads to "what kind of cool shit would be placed in a series of doorless octagonal rooms? Good dungeon maps engage the viewer, raise these sorts of questions. The prismatic rooms are another example.

Varying things up is also, as you point out, key. The cavern system in the northwest also catches my eye. Did the builders just run out of time or money? Or were there other . .  . darker . . . reasons for keeping that section pristine?

Dropping in secret or strange areas is another way to engage a viewer. Scanning the map, for example, the odd area just east of area 20 catches my eye. It's an unusual feature, for starters -- the three doors, with the two outer ones opening up into symmetrical rooms that frame a corridor running out from the middle door, and leads, eventually, to something. Again, the imagination starts taking over. Then I realize that the entire area is hidden behind a single secret door, and that the space is sunken below the elevation of the rest of the level, and it becomes clear that there is something very cool back there. Or at least there used to be.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: bryce0lynch on September 25, 2012, 09:37:22 AM
Quote from: Garnfellow;584488
A great dungeon map just cries out for exploration, key or no key, and this is a mother-fucking great map.


Strongly Concur, on both points.

I can't wait to see more!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 25, 2012, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: bryce0lynch;585333
Strongly Concur, on both points.

I can't wait to see more!
Thank you very much for your feedback. It is much appreciated. There's more to come, for sure. :)

Quote from: Garnfellow;585330
I think this is getting close to the mark. Draftsmanship is nice, but not the whole thing. Take the Halls of Undermountain (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WC516C6XyKk/UDjEvTtwNyI/AAAAAAAAAiU/mzdr_H7HdNc/s1600/Undermountain+Level+1.jpg), for example. This is a professionally drawn "pretty" map, but it really does not cry out to me.

When you think of aesthetics, you typically think of things like symmetry and balance and proportion. But part and parcel of the dungeon experience is exploration, and too much symmetry in a dungeon map kills that. "Oh, there was an alcove over here to the west, so there must be one over here on the east."

But too much randomness just looks like noise and has little appeal. Over the years I've generated a shit ton of maps using good ole Appendix A, and at a certain point you have to step in and guide the process or the dice alone will probably give you a boring map. (Like a thousand monkeys banging on a typewriter for centuries, it's possible you would get something great eventually.)

So while your map doesn't have symmetry, exactly, it does have these repeating visual features that catch the eye. For example, the chain of circular pools stringing from rooms 14, 20, 32, and 47. Or the series of octagonal rooms in the southwest corner. My eye immediately gets pulled to those, and from there I start wondering "how would one get into those rooms beyond area 16, since there's no door?" Which naturally leads to "what kind of cool shit would be placed in a series of doorless octagonal rooms? Good dungeon maps engage the viewer, raise these sorts of questions. The prismatic rooms are another example.
Yes, I agree with all those elements of response.

From a game play standpoint, symmetry can be great in giving clues to the mapper and the party behind him/her: "hey guys on that side there was an alcove, and this side is exactly the same, but for the alcove! What gives? We search the area!" Assymetry keeps the environment changing, participates to the  variety factor, to a lack of boredom during the exploration where you don't anticipate "Ok... the same five corridors again..." but rather wonder "now what the HECK are we going to find this time?!"

Some fashion of repeating patterns or features on one hand helps amp up the assymetric aspect of the map on the other hand without breaking its flow, at the same time keeping an air of coherence to it, like all the elements belong to the same complex, rather than being cut/pasted from various maps with little sense to the whole.  

Also, there's no question that interesting features on the map that make you go "huh? What is that for?" is engaging the imagination. The octogonal rooms you mentioned, the cube in the center of the map (above the spiral staircase) gets mentioned to when people ask me about the features on the map and what they might mean.

Like this too:

Quote from: Garnfellow;585330
Varying things up is also, as you point out, key. The cavern system in the northwest also catches my eye. Did the builders just run out of time or money? Or were there other . .  . darker . . . reasons for keeping that section pristine?
That kind of reflex of the imagination is really a great advantage for the game itself. So, keeping in mind we want the map to be played at an actual game table, and not just looked at quizzingly, that kind of reaction is exactly what we want to cultivate on our own parts, as DMs coming up with with our own maps, given that so much of the actual game is just looking at the sheets of notes and maps and coming up with a cool description on the spot, and also as guys who want to share our stuff with modules and such, since so many DMs out there will look at the map and go "what is that for?"

Instinctively, this kickstarts the process of a DM making your map HIS own. And that is VERY important to get a great game session going, IMO. If the DM looks at his maps or the maps he picked up online or in a module and that doesn't get his mind going to get into the setting depicted and visualize what's going on there, the map's missing an opportunity to help, and it can result in a game where the DM defaults to boxed text or just doesn't know what to describe and how because the "hook" to the imagination is missing. Some DMs sure don't need the map to help them in that regard, that's very clear, but if it does, well, so much the better, I think.

Quote from: Garnfellow;585330
Dropping in secret or strange areas is another way to engage a viewer. Scanning the map, for example, the odd area just east of area 20 catches my eye. It's an unusual feature, for starters -- the three doors, with the two outer ones opening up into symmetrical rooms that frame a corridor running out from the middle door, and leads, eventually, to something. Again, the imagination starts taking over. Then I realize that the entire area is hidden behind a single secret door, and that the space is sunken below the elevation of the rest of the level, and it becomes clear that there is something very cool back there. Or at least there used to be.
Yes, I think we're definitely on the same page here. When I draw the map, I start out with an outline of the level's flow. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=515153#post515153) This is basically the skeleton of the whole thing. The avenues of exploration put on paper in an abstract form.

Then I come up with the map itself, based on this skeleton, chunk by chunk, section after section, as demonstrated there. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=516318#post516318)

This is the stage where I really come up with particular areas (besides the very bare bones ideas that made it on the initial outline (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Megadungeon-L-1c-d.jpg), of course), cool shapes or features that make me go "hm. That's cool. What could that be?" I start writing some ideas. I draw arrows and I'm like "ok, this is kitchen" or "Is that a pit?" That's basically what you see here:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-sample-01.jpg)

When all the sections are put together you have an environment that's full of these various elements. You'll have to modify your original ideas, some of them are going to be too much, not enough, will not fit with the grand scheme of the level - but that's fine, that's part of the process - and what you'll get at the end of the day is a sense of coherence of the map, with some cool areas all over the place, and a sense of variety coming from that as well.

I also think that mapping bit by bit like this helps me visualize the environment. This is very important to me, to the way I run the game, to be able to close my eyes and *see* what it was looking at or drawing on the page, to see the walls, see the stagnant water, imagine the dampness of the place, the half light, the torches burning, the cobwebs, etc. This process of mapping helps me to get there in my mind's eye.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Garnfellow on September 26, 2012, 07:46:36 AM
Quote from: Benoist;585348
When I draw the map, I start out with an outline of the level's flow. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=515153#post515153) This is basically the skeleton of the whole thing. The avenues of exploration put on paper in an abstract form.

Then I come up with the map itself, based on this skeleton, chunk by chunk, section after section, as demonstrated there. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=516318#post516318)

This is the stage where I really come up with particular areas (besides the very bare bones ideas that made it on the initial outline (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Megadungeon-L-1c-d.jpg), of course), cool shapes or features that make me go "hm. That's cool. What could that be?" I start writing some ideas. I draw arrows and I'm like "ok, this is kitchen" or "Is that a pit?"
I think elements of this approach may help me bridge an important gap with my own megadungeon.

I treat megadungeon mapping and stocking much like the development of sectors and subsectors in Traveller. You don't just generate all systems for everything all at once. Well, unless you want to use a computer program.

I have a nice cross section map of all 10 dungeon levels. This is like a Traveller domain-level map.

I approach each dungeon level like a Traveller sector. I have overall themes and monster rosters for each level, just like you might say "This is a sector where the Aslan and Solomani have been butting heads." So, for example, the 7th level is an oversized level, with rooms, chambers, corridors, etc. all double-sized. There are bands of hill, fire, and frost giants. There is a wererat den and a clutch of lamias. And so on.

For each level, I've got a Sector map -- basically, an 8 x 8 grid, with each square representing a 300 x 300 foot zone, which is equivalent to a Traveller "Subsector." (No level uses all 64 possible zones, so I have a plenty of room to expand.)

So far I've only really fleshed out the dungeon zones as I've needed them, and I haven't worried about zones that aren't developed. This has been a good labor-saving approach, but I am finding -- just as with Traveller -- that because each zone/subsector is generated in isolation, there isn't always great continuity between adjacent zones. So my dungeon zones don't flow well from one area to another. At the individual level, the zone maps may look fine, but when you lay completed zones next to each other it looks like a mishmash.

I've got a good top-level and a good bottom-level perspective of my megadungeon, but I need to do something at the mid-level to knit these bottom-level pieces together better. Playing around with rough level outlines might be the missing link.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Roger the GS on September 27, 2012, 03:44:13 AM
Very much enjoying the look under the hood here and the tasty-looking map. I thought I'd contribute some of my own thoughts.

Part of good MD map design is having the different architectural styles and features contribute to the dungeon's meaning - to the uncovering of its history and present secrets. As I wrote on my blog (http://rolesrules.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/meaningful-megadungeon.html):

Quote
1. The sub-areas of the dungeon must show differences in design (wide passages, narrow passages, orthogonal, diagonal, curved, irregular, etc.) and decoration.

2. The areas of the dungeon should relate a meaningful history for the players to discover. This can happen on a micro level - "this was once the kitchen of the Minotaur Lord but now it is the lab of a crazed alchemist" - and a macro level - evidence related to what the Minotaur Lord was doing, how he got on with the other power groups, what his place was in the rationale of the dungeon.

3. The areas of the dungeon should refer to each other, both in terms of architecture (a multiplicity of stairs, chutes, teleporters giving the sense of freedom of movement between safer and more dangerous places) and features ("this lever opens the portcullis on level 3"..."in this room is an ambassador from the troglodytes on level 4").

Other relevant writings of mine:
http://rolesrules.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/d-is-story-game.html
http://rolesrules.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/megadungeon-mysteries.html
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 27, 2012, 05:39:24 PM
Quote from: Garnfellow;585729
So far I've only really fleshed out the dungeon zones as I've needed them, and I haven't worried about zones that aren't developed. This has been a good labor-saving approach, but I am finding -- just as with Traveller -- that because each zone/subsector is generated in isolation, there isn't always great continuity between adjacent zones. So my dungeon zones don't flow well from one area to another. At the individual level, the zone maps may look fine, but when you lay completed zones next to each other it looks like a mishmash.

I've got a good top-level and a good bottom-level perspective of my megadungeon, but I need to do something at the mid-level to knit these bottom-level pieces together better. Playing around with rough level outlines might be the missing link.

Hm. I see what you mean. This is an issue I generally do not have. When I come up with the cross-section and names for the levels, and/or brief descriptions, I basically get inspired by previous ideas and come up with the next and the next. Sometimes some connections between levels are obvious from the get-go, and sometimes I elaborate on them later on, which may had some transional sections, sub-levels or even entire levels to my cross-section later on.

So when I come up with the cross-section of the volcano, (http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Volcano-dungeon01.jpg) I start noting the names that come to mind for those levels or what I think is where in very sketchy details, not even sentences. Here the names came up independantly pretty much as I was writing the post:

(0a) The Hive
(0b) The Aarakocra Aviaries
(1a) The Mines of the Ash-Kadaï
(2a) The Ashen Court
(2b) Tombs of the Builders
(3) The Smoldering Theatre
(1b) The Trogodyte settlement ruins
(4) Ponds of the Fish Men
(4a) Sunken Ziggurat of Ankhepoth
(5) Temple of the Hand
(6) The Market Place
(6a) The Fortress Gate of the Duergar
(1c) The Brigands' Hideout

At first I have no idea what's going on but the game of association in my mind and wondering "what are those?" and "how are those two linked?" and so on gives birth to a number of ideas (http://www.therpgsite.com/showpost.php?p=506673&postcount=33), which then I write down when I describe each level with a paragraph or two similar to this one for the Bandit level (aka 1c. Brigands' hideout in the original key): Bandit hideout. Victims abducted. Bandit ‘King’ and his court. Hounds he throws food at. Trained rodents. Group of Hobgoblin mercenaries. Mud. Giant Snake pit. Shoddy workshop with disassembled carts, teeth taken out of skulls. Toy constructs built by alchemist to entertain. Alchemist prisoner too? Prisoner for too long.

Now you look at this first draft description to the level and compare it to what I initially came up with for the Troglodyte settlement ruins above... Magical, undead level. Skeletons, zombies, scavengers. Predator found refuge near the surface. Random hauntings. The deeper you go, the creepier and darker it becomes. Up to the seal. Ruins. Abandoned rooms. Traps. Offerings from the Ash-K who are afraid of the place and want to appease its Evil. Bones disturbed are reset after a time. Rooms too. Cursed to repeat for eternity. Pantomime.

... you can see the seeds of what gaves us the later Bandit level where you have the bandits inhabiting that level of the complex that preceeded them, that lies under an ancient tower once build by the Sorcerer Kings who later built this troglodyte fort up the flank of the volcano. So there's a sort of foreshadowing effect going on.

Same thing with the alchemist's experiments which are picked up from the Sorcerer Kings of old, who themselves picked them up from the earlier technology of the Mi Go who dug through the volcano in the first place. The intact brain in the metal box at area 59 of our Bandit level key (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=584077#post584077) could also be a great foreshadowing element for the deeper levels of the complex, from the Tomb of the Builders downwards, in particular.

Going back to the connection between the troglodyte fort (1b) and the bandit level (1c), I know there's an actual passage or route between the two there now. So my cross-section would need to be updated. I wondered how to fill the gap here and considered for a moment adding specific set pieces along the route. I find this particular picture to be extremely inspiring as far as the look and feel of this particular passage would look like:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Voronja-cave.jpg)

That's going to be cool I think. There could be excavations and/or advances from the bandits in this zone, probably some foreshadowing elements that would introduce the darkness the PCs are going to find if/when they reach the troglodyte ruins at last.

So to make a long story short, it's kind of a back and forth in my mind. The macro inspires the micro and vice versa. Before, during and after. And all this stuff ends up making a coherent whole, yet with sections or levels with each their own flair and specificities in the end.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 27, 2012, 05:45:20 PM
Quote from: Roger the GS;586181
Very much enjoying the look under the hood here and the tasty-looking map. I thought I'd contribute some of my own thoughts.

Part of good MD map design is having the different architectural styles and features contribute to the dungeon's meaning - to the uncovering of its history and present secrets. As I wrote on my blog (http://rolesrules.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/meaningful-megadungeon.html):

Other relevant writings of mine:
http://rolesrules.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/d-is-story-game.html
http://rolesrules.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/megadungeon-mysteries.html
Thanks, and that is indeed some cool input, Roger. Your point about the way the dungeon campaign allows the PCs to find out the story of the dungeon made me think of Mike Mornard's (Old Geezer) summary of D&D somewhere: "The story D&D tells is the story of the world," or some such. It's very true.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: StormBringer on September 27, 2012, 07:21:17 PM
I am posting this so I can keep track of this thread, because the information here is fucking amazing.  Carry on!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on September 28, 2012, 12:00:44 PM
Quote from: StormBringer;586585
I am posting this so I can keep track of this thread, because the information here is fucking amazing.  Carry on!


Thanks, mate! I'm glad you find the info useful! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on October 18, 2012, 06:49:27 PM
BANDIT LEVEL MAP KEY, PART 3

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C-key-03.jpg)

65 – Secret passage to the Three Doors. Just behind this secret panel opened in a push forward, then downwards motion, stand three doors of peculiar appearance. They are all made of dark iron and covered with gears of different sizes. In the middle of the western door hangs half of a mask representing some kind of solar deity, flames erupting from its face as hair would, attached to a set of rails joining all three doors together. A keen observer will note that the single eye on this half of the mask is perfectly round, and slightly discoloured, like an object has been inserted in and out of the socket time and time again.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/65-door.jpg)

The other half of the mask should apparently have been found hanging in the middle of the eastern door, attached in a similar fashion to the rails, but is presently missing: it has been taken away by force, judging by the set of wires and cables left hanging in its place (Xaelaandder Bey, the alchemist of area 59 wears it presently). The rails extend from the middle of the doors on each side towards the center of the middle one.

There are levers protruding from the eastern and western walls of this small area facing the doors. They are both in the “up” position. Lowering a lever will make the closer half of the mask move along the rails towards the center of the middle door. Since the half of the mask on the eastern door is currently missing, just the socket supposed to be holding it in place will move along the rails when the lever next to it is lowered.

Once either one of the halves of the mask finds its way to the center of the middle door, the door it has just left noisily unlocks itself (i.e. the eastern or western door, with a rusted “clack” sound), granting access to the area beyond. The eastern door will not open until the half of the mask in the alchemist’s possession has been placed back in its original position, however.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/65-map.jpg)

A. Entering the area beyond the western door, the PCs will find a corridor turning left, then right. In the corner there, they will find a small dais with a little shrine dedicated to a group of deities whose statuettes have been shattered some time ago. Remains of offerings can be found near the statuettes: a few copper pieces, some crumbling remains of pieces of meat, clay goblets no longer containing anything but dust. Above the dais, engraved on the wall, lies a warning in the ancient language of the Sorcerer Kings who built this place:

“As the skies give us, and take away,
So shall men of faith bend, obey,
Give mind and crown, not to fade yonder,
Forever encased, forever trapped, and wander.”


This is a warning concerning the room beyond where the PCs will find against the northern wall a large sculpted scene depicting strange winged creatures similar to giant moths with squid heads flying all towards a black star shining of a very deep blue, indigo color painted on the ceiling. Each of the statues holds with their tentacles some real human heads which have been severed at the neck, their eyes entirely white, blind for eternity. Most of them are old and mummified, save a few that look rather fresh (victims amongst the brigands as the alchemist experimented with the area).

In the center of the group of statues the PCs might notice a larger creature wearing a large deep blue, black lighted, indigo gem in what must be its forehead, like a third eye. It seems to direct the group towards the black star.

The gem in the forehead of this large winged creature is of the same size as the socket of the half of the mask hanging from the door outside.

Trying to take the gem without making any offering will cause some of the creatures to animate. 1-3 stone golems, as it were, will attempt to seize the offending PC and use their tentacles to take his head off by force. Once that is done, they will take back their position in the sculpture and freeze again. Additionally, a blast of black light will spread from the star on the ceiling and, strike the PCs’ eyes, prompting a saving throw versus aimed items (rods, staffs, wands) with a +4 modifier to avoid being blinded by the dark light.  

To avoid these negative consequences, the PCs must make an offering to the creatures by cutting the head off any intelligent humanoid and presenting it to the creatures. They will then animate, take the offering, which will join the many heads hanging from their tentacles. They will take back their position and the entire scene depicted will briefly shine of the same indigo color as the gem and the black star. The PCs will then be allowed to take the gem of the large creature’s brow.

B. Once the PCs have recovered the half of the mask in the alchemist’s possession, they will be able to affix it to the knob sliding on the rails when the lever on the eastern side of the corridor is activated. This doesn’t take any particular training, as the cables are hanging pretty evidently and putting them back inside the mask is just a matter of finding the right openings. When that is done, and the lever is activated, the eastern mask will travel along the rail to the center of the middle door, and the eastern door left unoccupied will unlock noisily.

Entering the area beyond will reveal some similarities with (A). There is a small dais in the corner where the corridor turns right, then left, with a little shrine there. The first difference is evident: the shrine here is dedicated to a single deity, the Sun deity of the setting. Remains of offerings can be found there as well. Above the dais, an inscription too, but this one says:

“What does the Light stand for?”

In the room beyond, there is a sculpture on the northern wall. This one represents the Sun lord holding the severed head of one of the monsters sculpted at (A). In the middle of the severed head, another perfectly round gem that would fit neatly inside the socket of the eastern half of the mask, this one glowing of an orange, morning light. The floor is covered of thousands of pieces of copper (more than 50,000 of them, in fact). If the PCs throw some of their own coins on the floor, it will count as an offering to the Sun god.

Trying to seize the gem without answering the question will anger the Sun god. The room will start glowing red, as if warmed up by some great lava flow under the room. This wil of course warm up all the pieces of copper lying around as well. The PCs will have to retreat if they do not want to be burned to death (use rules for burning heat to adjudicate the situation). The PCs will not be able to take the gem by force, as it is magically sealed to the sculpture.

Answering the question to the satisfaction of the Sun god will allow the PCs to take the gem. “Truth”, “Knowledge” might be acceptable answers. Judge according to the particular wording and declamation of the PCs to the deity in front of them; if their answer makes sense to you, allow it.

C. Once the two halves of the mask are put together in the center of the middle door, and that both gems have been inserted in its eye sockets, the middle door will unlock and open, revealing a long corridor beyond.

About 20 feet away from the door the PCs will find a dais where a lump of fresh clay is resting. This clay is in fact a deactivated teleporter. When all five platonic solids are activated in the Prismatic room (30), this lump of clay becomes a living pillar that acts as a receiver to the teleporter inside the Prismatic room itself.

East and west of the dais, the PCs can see to enormous gems protruding from the walls. One, to the east, glows orange, and the other, to the west, glows with a deep blue, indigo color. A lantern hangs in front of each gem. Both lanterns are out.

Lighting up these lanterns makes them glow a different color, orange and indigo, respectively. The surface of a gem shines briefly as its corresponding lantern is lit up. The lantern’s magical fire dies after a period of one exploration turn. During this time, while the lantern is lit up, one could use the corresponding gem as a portal leading to the Prismatic room itself. Doing so makes one emerge inside the room from one of the doors associated with the colors that combine to make the hue of the gem (i.e. orange – yellow or red, indigo – violet or blue). Additionally, entering these portals will activate the orange or indigo satellites, respectively, which circumvents the requirements of opening and closing doors as explained at (30) to activate all the satellites in order.

North of the days, the walls start to be covered of frescos and inscriptions, all of which depicting some titanic battle between the winged creatures the PCs have seen depicted in the sculpture before and some type of enormous, gigantic octopus whose tentacles stretch on the walls in a way that suggest his body or core could be found further north at the end of the corridor.

At the end of the corridor the PCs will just see the tentacles battling the painted winged creature come together against the northern wall facing them and creating a fresco defying all reason and logic, as though the body of the giant octopus was just a giant mass of eyes and mouths and faces that all seem to swirl around a physical object levitating just in front of the wall.

This object is a crystal brain. It is translucent, clear, and seems to shine with an inner light that changes to reflect the different hues of the rainbow in a perpetual, rather hypnotic loop for those observant enough to notice it.  

This brain is the key to the secret door hidden by the animated fresco covering the northern wall at this position. To open this door, the PCs need the Canon’s octopus mask at area (33). The Sorcerer Kings used the knowledge of the spirit realms around this place bestowed to the Nu’ana to build this particular area. Other octopus masks, or related items of lore and magic, might be able to unlock this seal as well. Any of the Nu’ana people will be able to inform the PCs about the function of the octopus in their culture, which acts as a carrier or dreams and portents, an agent of change, travel, reincarnation, is a manifestation of what lies beyond, and in some ways acts as a messenger between the world of spirits and the world of men. It is not impossible the PCs might come up with their own solution to this riddle. Let them. If they find a way to build or find an Octopus mask besides the one in the possession of the Canon, then by all means allow it, but don’t make it too easy on them by any means.

Anyone wearing the octopus mask close to this area will see the tentacles of the mask animate and stretch towards the levitating crystal skull. If stepping closer, within range, the tentacles of the mask will seize the brain. Many alien memories of other worlds, other times, other dimensions will flood the wearer’s mind as the fresco on the northern wall moves and swirls outward to reveal the large teleporter beyond (similar to the other teleporters of this level, without a chance of malfunction).

This teleporter leads to the Cube at (67), unless all the seven satellites of the Prismatic room (30) are lit up in order, which will change the destination to the Tomb of the Lightbreaker sublevel of the dungeon, the mausoleum of the Sorcerer who built this place.

66 – Spiral staircase to the surface. This spiral staircase leads up to the surface, and down to the waterworks sublevel. The area is surrounded by trip wires that will ring bells to warn the bandits of the arrival of intruders in the vicinity. See area (1) for wires.

67 – The Cube. The Cube is a prison, a dimensional space built out of meteoric metal which trapped the builders the Sorcerer Kings used and tortured to extract all the knowledge they could about this place, the crystals the builders were searching for, the function of the dungeon and volcano around it. This is in fact a sublevel of the dungeon, a tesseract, a three-dimensional cubic level where time and space have been bent. The access to the Cube lies at area (65).

68, 69 – Corridors of the ages. These corridors are extremely dangerous to the uninitiated. There are several bodies visible from both the northern and southern entrances, and little shrines next to the doors leading in and out of the corridor itself. Going up or down the corridor in the sense of the arrow in each case is safe enough. The people walking by the edge of the Cube can see its alien structure protruding in front of them, and hear a low hum emanating from it, clearly indicating it is active and alive.

Going against the sense of the arrow is deadly in most cases, however, since the magical and temporal energies swirling around the Cube somehow do not work with the movement of the body and its own energies in such specific conditions, but against them. The body therefore ages rapidly, 1d100 years on a failed saving throw against spells with each trip through each corridor, to be exact, and 1d20 on a successful throw. There is no known way to avoid this effect, but several candles and little mementos have been deposited here by the inhabitants of the dungeon at the deadly entrances of both corridors (that is, the southern entrance of the western corridor and the northern entrance of the eastern corridor, respectively), along with various graffiti telling whoever reads of the danger ahead “not this way!”, “Only death lies ahead!” and the like.  

There is a way to walk the corridors against the sense of the arrows, in the direction of the deadly aging, without succumbing to the effects of the Cube, however. To do this, one would have to stop twice walking down the corridor, one time in each of the rooms marked (P) along the way. These areas are safe from the effects of the Cube and reset the aging effect of the corridor, thus allowing to go through the area chunk-by-chunk, without suffering the full blast of the Cube's radiations.

70 – Prismatic room. See area (30) for more information.

71 – Common grave. After following the twists and turns of a small corridor the PCs will reach a room large of about 20 feet and long of 30. This area is filled with bodies who seem to have all died of exhaustion and various wounds delivered with bare hands. The greatest amount of bodies is pressed against the locked door in the NE corner of the room, as though they attempted to force their way through and died trying.

This is in fact exactly what happened.

All around the room, the walls have been scratched and etched (using nails, mostly, as the evidence of dried blood and wounded fingers suggests) with various personal signs, symbols, and bits of phrases here and there. The language is ancient, and belongs to the same era as the Sorcerer Kings'. One can read, scattered here and there across the walls:

“The warmth of your touch.”
“The coldness of your eyes.”
“The promise of your breath.”
“The worlds you inhabit.”
“Please let me in, back to your arms.”
“Know your love. Die a little inside.”
“Please let me in, back into the dream.”
“Let me live. Let me die yours again.”


These verses are the pleas of the people who died here longing to return to their masters, a group of ghouls whose touch charms its victims, rather than paralyses. This is a warning to the characters. Don't hesitate to make it look really creepy and unsettling. They must question their good judgement in venturing any further.

As the characters tried to make their way to the door, they will undoubtedly have to clear the area of the bodies pressed against it. The bodies will then animate. Make this a chaotic moment, with arms and legs and faces flailing around, trying to grab the characters savagely. A group of 2d6 zombies would be enough. The idea here is really to warn the characters of what lies ahead. If they cannot handle this easily, they are not ready to face the ghouls.

72 – Teleporter room. Similar to the teleporter of (28), this is one of the main eight teleporters of the level. See area (9, 10) for more information.

This room is heavily decorated. The scenes on the walls depict two ladies being worshipped and begged by the slaves under their command in some sort of grand building enterprise. They live and die and worship before the characters' eyes. Some of them are committing suicide. Others are plucking their eyes out after being rejected by the Masters. All of them want to be loved by the Masters, and the Masters do not care, instead instructing them to go about their labour, to work for them until they are no more.

On the southern wall of the room, there are three separate doors, all of them reinforced with dark iron. The easternmost door cannot be opened from this room, and can only be used to get in from the other side.

73 – The Loop. The U-shaped corridor may be accessed from the middle door of area (72) or the secret passage leading to area (74).

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/73-area.jpg)

The walls around (A) and (B) are covered with sheets of bronze etched with mysterious runes. Stepping through either one of them from the north triggers the trap: illusions appear immediately behind (A) and (B) giving the impression that the corridor goes on and turns behind them. The doors north of both positions seem to have disappeared.

Walking down south will lead the victims to a U turn. They will then reach either (A) or (B) walking northward from the south. Stepping or jumping through (B) teleports the victim instantly to (A), the facing position having been switched by 180 degrees. There is brief flash showing the real appearance beyond (B) before being teleported to (A), but since the bronze casings around (A) and (B) are virtually identical, it feels like the victim just went through (B) and stepped northward beyond, when in fact it is back at (A), facing south. The effect is identical if you step or jump through (A), which results in a teleportation to (B) with a 180 degrees facing rotation.

The corridor thus feels like a loop, and would seem to look like this on the map:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/73-loop.jpg)

To reach the eastern door that opens in the room and get outside of the loop, a victim needs to step backwards through (A) to be teleported to (B) facing north. The illusion behind (B) will appear to have dissipated, and the victim will be free to leave the area through the eastern door to (72). Inspecting the area will allow a shrewd explorer to find the secret door leading to area (74), however. There is additionally a 2-in-6 chance to notice it unintentionally due to a slight change in temperature and stench pouring through the closed secret door.

74 – Common grave. This area is similar to (72), and intended as a warning of what is to come with the ghouls at areas (75) and (76). Bodies are also piled in the corridors and empty rooms beyond (northward, next to area 75), pressed against the doors of the tomb, etc. There are also a half dozen tumours scattered throughout this whole area which act in a similar fashion as the cysts in the tomb of the ancient sorcerer at (29).

75 – The Eunuchs. This burial chamber is the resting place of three ghouls, the eunuchs of the two ladies they served in life. This a barren room with very little to find here but remains of organs, perfume and tapestries which are not rotten beyond repair. These ghouls can be called by their ladies from their burial chamber without a word. Whether this is the fruit of some particular pheromone or perfume emanating from the ladies is unclear, but it is quite efficient.

The eunuchs are ghouls with 9, 10 and 10 HP respectively. AC 6. They fight in the ghouls' usual manner, but are especially large and fat for their kind. Their touch does not induce paralyzation as much as it does a complete like of drive and empathy. The effect is very similar for combat purposes, but make a point to describe it in such terms (save against paralization nonetheless). Striking the creatures' bellies will reveal their contents: pieces of soiled silver of ancient manufacture, the payments of their ladies they ate in their greed to satisfy the hunger that consumed their souls long before they were entombed here. Assume each ghoul has ingested around 500 pieces each which could be salvaged after their demise.

76 – The Ladies. This burial chamber is heavily decorated and nigh pristine, as though it had been sealed all this time (this is not true, as the ghouls here would sometimes feast on the cysts and bodies of area 74). The ladies' sarcophagi are the most prominent features here. These are ghouls with 20 HP each (count as 4 HD creatures), AC 6, whose touch does not induce paralyzation like most ghouls', but a variation of a charm effect that make their victims fall in love with them. Treat as Charm Person. Save versus Spells.

The Ladies additionally command the undead of this whole area. They can call to them the Eunuchs at (75), who in turn can gather more undead from area (74). This could flank the characters and lead them to a certain death (hence the various warnings).

The treasure here is significant, in the form of perfumes, balms, pieces of furniture and the like, which would all roughly be worth about 1,000 GP if the room was completely emptied of its content. The clothes of the ladies, with their exotic silks inlaid of silver and gold, the various gemstones embedded in their girdles and the like, could be worth another 1,000 GP, assuming they are left undamaged after the creatures' demise, an unlikely prospect to say the least. Their value could be worth around 250 GP each, otherwise. Roll for a random set of scrolls and potions present in this room as well.

77 – Prismatic room. Can only be accessed to, and not exited from, at this particular location. See area (30) for more information.

78 – The Kobolds’ common area. This is the common area of the kobolds who separated from their original clan and joined the bandits under the protection of the Beggar King Oldebert the First.

This area is filthy, with piles of refuse, half-eaten remains of various small animals and the like, no proper bedding to speak of, and an enduring stench mingling various specific smells best left to the DM's imagination. 5-30 Kobolds are present here at all times, as well as a wild boar which is particularly favoured (as a pet would be be under these particular circumstances) by the group. They might be just playing games, resting, eating, or picking on particular individuals they torture and ridicule for their own pleasure. There is actually a 2-in-6 chance that a fight breaks out amongst them just before the characters enter the area.

79 – Lair of the Kobold Chieftain. This leader is slightly taller than the other kobolds of the area, and easily recognizable by the huge feathered head dress he is constantly wearing (imagine a dog-headed witch doctor, Diablo style).

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Diablo-witch-doctor-500.jpg)

This room isn't much cleaner than the kobolds' common room, but it features various little idols of guardian spirits the kobolds seem to worship and associate with their leader in some fashion. These idols are carved out of whatever materials the kobolds might find, so it would include some clay, stones, wood, and probably some less hygienic raw materials as well. There are dozens of idols scattered throughout the room, with candles lit next to them, little trinkets and tribute left to honour them.

In the middle of the room lies a huge pile of dried animal skulls covered with rat furs which performs the function of seat of power, or throne, for the kobolds.

The kobold chieftain is here 3-in-6 along with his two body guards (treat as goblins with 4 HP, AC 6, 1-6 damage) and two pets (giant weasels held by leather straps). 2-12 subjects of the chieftain are also present in this room at all times.

The kobold chieftain has a collection of shrunken heads stashed away under his throne (he tries to copy the alchemist's experiments at 59 without understanding much of their purpose). Amidst the skulls that make up his thrones can be found a number of personal trinkets and valuables as well, including 54 GP, 28 SP, 18 EP and 275 CP.  A few jars of clay full of flaming oil are also stored here in a corner, to be used by the kobolds in times of need.

80 – The Hatchery. The eggs the kobods took with them when they left their original clan are stored in this area. It is under constant surveillance, as 2-12 kobolds are constantly tending to the eggs' care (they carry no particular treasure).

The main entrances to this area, north to the guard post and south to area (81) are trapped with 20' wide nets hanging from the ceiling. Ropes hanging regularly along the walls of the area are connected to these nets. Pulling the ropes would trigger the nets' release, and could potentially trap characters attempting to flee through these doors (saving throw versus dragon breath to avoid).

81 – The Kobolds’ well. This is the kobolds' water supply. 4-in-6 chance to find 1-8 kobolds in this area. In case of trouble, a number of them will flee towards the chieftain's lair at (79). The commotion will surely warn the kobolds of the hatchery (80) of what is going on.

82 – Trapped ceiling, and more traps beyond. This entire area is trapped: walking at any point in the center of the room will trigger a pressure plate which will release a block of stone immediately blocking this room's southern exit. The entire ceiling of the room will then start to slide downward to crush whoever remains stuck here.

Note that the eastern exit to the room is locked, but not blocked. Picking its lock or forcing it open are possible options, though the victims would just follow the trap's assumption. Along the path eastward towards the door leading to (81), several sets of poison darts will be fired at the characters (three, at each point where the walls end abruptly – U turns etc – along the way). Then, assuming they did not find the secret passage to the square room/shortcut, and did not exit this area to enter (81), there are more blocks falling from the ceiling and potentially killing or trapping forever the characters who made this critical mistake.

As noted above, the square room with the two adjacent secret doors is the safe passage here. It leads directly to area (83) and the connections between various sublevels of the complex it represents.

83 – Collapsed room. This room's floor and ceiling both partially collapsed. The waterworks sublevel below and the mezzanine sublevel above are both accessible from this area. The shaft of exposed basaltic rock formations exposed by the collapse have been since covered with a slightly phosphorescent and particularly aggressive variety of brown mold (MM 71). As soon as the characters approach the room they will see the heat of their torches being drained by the mold, their own body heat being immediately affected as well (1-4 damage). There will be a muffled sound, like a balloon inflating, and the light emanating from the mold will become a tad more intense (as the mold feeds on the heat and grows instantly). Entering the room will result in a full exposition to the brown mold (with full damage etc see MM2), and the mold will grow to such an extent as to shut the connection to either one of the sublevels (determine randomly). Any further exposition would close the other passage as well, and potentially cause the mold to grow dramatically and take over the entire room, and beyond. This mold is still very sensitive to cold.

84 – Prismatic Room. See area (30) for more information.

85 – Exit to the surface. Connects the surface and the workshop area close by where resources stolen by the bandits are brought to be taken apart, melted, worked on and the like. Also the passage for the mounts and carts too large for the other entrances to the complex. Note the trip wire/alarm there.

86 – Dog pens. This area is inhabited by quite a few dogs (count a dozen here at all times in pens, with others possibly kept as pets by various level inhabitants of your choosing) of the husky type which the bandits take with them when they are hunting around the volcano (for food or possible intruders and escapees from the level) or expecting to face an opposition warranting their use. Two sleighs are also stored in this room (they are used during the mid-fall to early spring season to carry valuables and game from their hunting when the wilderness is covered with snow). A dog handler is always present in this room. 2-in-6 chance of also having 1-6 bandits present in the room, either going out, coming in, or just hanging around the room taking to the handler or feeding, playing with the dogs.

87 – Lizard stables. These stables house a half-dozen lizard mounts which are practical for the kobolds to roam around the slopes of the volcano. These particular mounts look like overgrown western salamanders, as a matter of fact. They do not perform well in the snow, but they are particularly effective when hunting on or travelling through rough and/or wet terrain, particularly sheer mountain surfaces, swamps and the like.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Salamander-500.jpg)

88 – Stables and machicolations. These are the horses' stables. A dozen horses are present here at all times. The ceiling of this room is particularly interesting, since it is adorned with a particularly elaborate stonework that might betray its purpose to a veteran of sieges: these are machicolations leading to the mezzanine above this level. If the bandits and hobgoblins of this area are aware of an intrusion, they are likely to use these machicolations to pour boiling oil on the intruders once they spot them. They might hold on to save the horses, instead waiting for the intruders to go through area (89) to eliminate them, but if the forces taking the place are too strong or impressive they might change their mind and do away with as many opponents as they possibly can.

89 – Meurtrières. The area linking the hobgoblins' workshop to the stables is a death zone. It has two guard posts on each side from which a variety of projectiles can be shot at intruders via an elaborate system of meurtrières (murder holes) adorning the northern and southern walls. There are also machicolations on the ceiling similar to those of the stables which the guardsmen above might use to pour boiling oil and all manners of bad news on the invaders going through.

90 – The Workshop. This is the hobgoblins' workshop, the place where carts, chests, various manners of pieces of furniture or possessions stolen by the bandits are taken apart to melt or store or reuse for some other purpose.

5-in-6 chances to find hobgoblins (MM 52, 1 sergeant with 2 assistants, plus 2-12 individuals) hard at work in this area.

Note the active teleporter in the NW corner, as well as the round area in the NE surrounding a pit leading to the waterworks sublevel (with a system of pulleys which can be used to lower some loads down there), with a stone staircase around it, affixed to the wall, leading up to the mezzanine sublevel.

91 – Entrance of the gaols. The two portcullis here are always down and can only be lifted up mechanically from inside this space (using a set of levers right next to them). A lone bugbear (5-in-6) is generally standing guard within, though he is occasionally replaced by one of the bandits instead (1-in-6), when he is called to perform other duties, rests away from this place and the like. He doesn't like this duty and is bored to tears. He might be taunted into opening the gates just to be able to get into a good fight.

92 – The gaols. This is the area where the prisoners of the bandits are usually kept (besides the Temple area at 32). Guards from the surveillance room, including the Minotaur from (93) as well as the gaoler himself, are walking back and forth to and from this area, either feeding the prisoners, taunting them in some fashion, or taking them to the torture room and other areas of the complex where they would have to be taken for one reason or the other.

There are nine 10' square cells here. Most of them are empty at this moment, but they could get used fast, when the bandits come back from attacking some convoy or looting some place where they found prisoners worth taking with them, for instance. If the characters are taken alive by the bandits, they will most probably be detained in this area.

Here's a sample of possible prisoners for this area. Don't hesitate to populate the cells with NPCs of your own making. Also note this is the area where Acskamun, the Shaman of the Nu'ana, is supposed to be imprisoned, at least according to Smuhana and the other prisoners at area (32), but he has been taken to be subjected to the experiments of the alchemist since then: his head can be found in Xaelaandder's living quarters at (59).

Talbott of Juilh is a paladin who recently opened a tavern, the White Steed, in the valley. One of the people he employed, a young girl going by the name of Lassa, disappeared in the forest. He had to follow her trail, and was taken prisoner by the bandits.
Lassa is the girl Talbott was searching for in the forest. She was taken prisoner a few days before he did. She's about 15-years of age, and a real brat. Talbott will want to protect her at all costs, since she is his responsibility, even if she misbehaves along the way...
Hasu Masamune is an ogre mage who lost all of his magical powers and searches for a way to reactivate them. He was taken prisoner as he was trying to make his way up the volcano's slope to the fort of the sorcerer-kings. Whatever he knows might be of interest to the characters. He even has the fragment of a map to show them, if they help him, and can get his equipment back from the bandits.
Giurg Nolec  is a thief and a murderer who was fleeing from the noose waiting for him back in the valley. He failed to make his case to the bandits after he was taken trying to strangle one of the guards outside the compound to still some bread, weapons and ammunition. He will try to make himself look like a victim but will probably turn on the characters at some point.
Three warriors of the Nu'ana, who have been deemed unimportant compared to the daughter of Acskamun and her consort at (32), or Acskamun himself who was used for the alchemist's experiments (see area 59 for more information). These warriors could plea for the characters to aid them free these other prisoners from the bandits.

(Alternately, the DM might start PCs as prisoners in this area, and set up an escape situation as the start of the game, the objective being to escape the hideout and/or retrieve some specific possessions, or individuals/allies kept prisoners in the Temple at 32 or elsewhere)

93 - Surveillance room. 2-8 guards are present here at all times. They are led by the goaler, a battle-hardened sergeant (5th level fighter, 38 HP, AC 3, present 4-in-6) and his two henchmen, a Minotaur (MM71, HP 35, AC 6, with a battle axe, present here 5-in-6 if not at 92), and a 3rd level fighter (HP 22, AC 5, remains around this area at all times). The possessions of the prisoners are kept in this room (Talbott's half plate, sword and shield, Hasu's spear and backpack including the map, etc.).  

94 – Living quarters of the gaoler.  This is where the goaler takes some rest. If he is not with his men, this is generally where he can be found. There are a few valuables in this room including a purse containing a dozen rough emeralds each worth about 200 GP, a bag containing iron rations for a week, and another purse containing 24 PP, 48 GP and 5 SP (additionally, the gaoler carries on his person two healing potions, a potion of spider climb, a bastard sword and a banded mail +1 stolen to an elven prisoner who died long since).

95 – Torture room. This is the place where prisoners are tortured by the Malachite's right hand, the Butcher (6th level fighter, 49 HP, AC 5). This half-blooded hobgoblin speaks with a strange exotic accent. He seems himself as something of an expert, a surgeon, as it were, able to take apart bodies with the greatest of skills, an outstanding anatomic knowledge and a dangerously steady hand. He is in charge of the gaols, the worshop, the mezzanine above and the contingent of bandits and hobgoblins managing the main entrance to the bandit hideout at (85). He has a foul temper, and is unforgiving and cruel by nature.

There is a 2-in-6 chance of finding the Butcher in this room torturing some of the bandits prisoners, either trying to extract some useful information out of them, or simply inflicting pain for his own pleasure. If here, he will be aided by two 3rd level fighters while his own lieutenant, a 4th level fighter himself, will be around the common room at (98) managing some business with the guards there (or about in the surrounding areas, including the mezzanine).

The Butcher always carries a few anaesthetic drugs on his person, a couple healing potions, a couple of potions inducing paralysis, some thick gloves made of some exotic fish hide, and some faceted, rough binoculars for precision work. He also fights wielding an impressive-looking, soiled butcher's knife in one hand, and a long, sharp, clean scalpel-like seax knife in the other (treat both as short swords in terms of damage). The seax knife is in fact a +2 intelligent blade with the most debased, vicious personality imaginable. It is extremely shrewd, however, and will try to pervert its wielders rather than controlling them into doing its bidding. It is patient and driven, and knows how to get to the darkest recesses of the mind.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Seax_knife-400.jpg)

96 – Exit to the docks. This passage leads to the bandit's docks by the shoreline.

97 – The Butcher's living quarters. This is where the Butcher rests a few hours a day. He can be found there about 3-in-6. This is a bare room with a bed. Not much to find there besides a sack with the Butcher's money (a violet garnet worth approximately 500 GP and coin, mostly gold and silver, worth about 80 GP total), some iron rations, a few healing potions (x2), another of water breathing, and an ointment able to clean up wounds and clear them of impurities (may cure poison and disease if applied within a turn after the wound was inflicted).

98 – Common room. This is a common room where the guards of the various areas around (guard post, mezzanine, etc) get together to relax, eat, drink and sleep occasionally. There will always be 2d6 bandits in the area, as well as 1d6 hobgoblins as well. The Butcher's Lieutenant, a 4th level fighter, will be around this area 5-in-6. If you determined the Butcher is presently in his own quarters (see above), then his two 3rd level fighter henchmen are also in this room. Determine monetary possessions randomly.

99 – Staircase to the mezzanine and pit to waterworks. Similar to the NE corner of area (90), there is a round pit in the middle of this room which can be used with a system of pulleys to get access to the waterworks sublevel below. There is also a stone stairway around leading to the mezzanine sublevel above.

Key to be continued… (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=665039#post665039)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Dana on November 04, 2012, 05:34:07 PM
I've been tearing through this thread today, and I've gotta say this is a gold mine of information and organized really well. It's given me all kinds of creative inspiration. Very cool stuff indeed. Subscribed!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on November 05, 2012, 12:50:15 PM
Quote from: Dana;597453
I've been tearing through this thread today, and I've gotta say this is a gold mine of information and organized really well. It's given me all kinds of creative inspiration. Very cool stuff indeed. Subscribed!


Thank you very much, Dana! I'm glad the material is useful to your games! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: StormBringer on November 28, 2012, 01:53:23 AM
Hopefully, this clears this thread off my unread list in the Control Panel.  :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Sacrificial Lamb on November 28, 2012, 02:31:35 AM
Nice maps, Benny....as always! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on November 28, 2012, 11:50:55 AM
Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;603036
Nice maps, Benny....as always! :)


Thank you, Barry. I appreciate it.
Title: A grand experiment
Post by: Rob Kuntz on December 14, 2012, 07:22:38 PM
Accepted your invite from G+ and registered.

Great maps all around.  You have a steady hand, Ben.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on December 14, 2012, 08:30:43 PM
Hey Rob! Nice to see you here! Welcome. I'm glad you enjoy the maps! More to come, once I get around to it! Hopefully soon. :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Rob Kuntz on December 15, 2012, 12:19:58 AM
Quote from: Benoist;609049
Hey Rob! Nice to see you here! Welcome. I'm glad you enjoy the maps! More to come, once I get around to it! Hopefully soon. :)


Hey maybe you could give me a pointer on how you did that one map in photoshop, Ben.  That is, finished it. It sure would expedite dealing with numerous old maps that I have and bringing them up to speed, so to speak.

I dare say that it would take a while to read all of the content here.  Are you thinking about collecting it into a pdf or such for wider dissemination, like a tutorial?

Best with it all.

Rob
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on December 15, 2012, 02:52:35 PM
Quote from: Rob Kuntz;609096
Hey maybe you could give me a pointer on how you did that one map in photoshop, Ben.  That is, finished it. It sure would expedite dealing with numerous old maps that I have and bringing them up to speed, so to speak.


Sure, not a problem!

First I have my finished master here, where I reported all my information on two sheets of graph paper as pictured here (plus the cavern system added afterwards):

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-Dpic.jpg)

Then, I scan those two.

I open the pictures in photoshop. I then carefully put the two halves of the map into a single picture document (I calculate the appropriate dimensions of the new doc, then copy/paste the two halves at the same scale, adjust the junction of of the two layers, then crop the outside rim). I adjust the light and contrast as necessary, to give me a crisp master like this:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C01.jpg)

I print this. Then I add the details I want, still by hand. I shade by hand as well. Then I scan the finished, shaded map. Open it in photoshop. Adjust light and contrast, maybe color some specific areas by creating selected layers of specific items I then shade with different colors using the photoshop tools (such as pools of water), and the result is this:

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C05.jpg)

Is that information useful to you, Rob?

Quote from: Rob Kuntz;609096
I dare say that it would take a while to read all of the content here.  Are you thinking about collecting it into a pdf or such for wider dissemination, like a tutorial?

Yes. All of this information and process will be gathered in a handy document, PDF and otherwise, so that people can print, look at it, take it apart, play it however they want. I want to get quite a few more posts in before I do this with any satisfaction, however.

Quote from: Rob Kuntz;609096
Best with it all.

Rob


Thanks Rob. Let me know if the short version here of the photoshop process was helpful. Cheers my friend.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Rob Kuntz on December 15, 2012, 09:23:05 PM
Thanks, Ben.  It's all great stuff.

Yes.  I was actually wondering about the steps taken in PS.  Like #1, #2, etc.
in fulfilling the process once it's been imported.  I'm not conversant with your techniques in that regard and it would be a great boon having a stepped procedural for someone like myself who has PS but doesn't know how to leverage its power.

Thanks again!

Rob
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: LordVreeg on December 15, 2012, 10:06:45 PM
you think Ben draws great maps?  he fills them pretty well indeed....
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on December 16, 2012, 09:46:19 PM
Quote from: Rob Kuntz;609277
Thanks, Ben.  It's all great stuff.

Yes.  I was actually wondering about the steps taken in PS.  Like #1, #2, etc.
in fulfilling the process once it's been imported.  I'm not conversant with your techniques in that regard and it would be a great boon having a stepped procedural for someone like myself who has PS but doesn't know how to leverage its power.

Thanks again!

Rob


You're welcome, Rob. I could build a comprehensive step 1, 2... etc method to start with a finished hand drawn map and putting it all together with Photoshop but that'd take some time. Would you, or anyone else, for that matter, welcome such specific advice?

Quote from: LordVreeg;609281
you think Ben draws great maps?  he fills them pretty well indeed....

Thank you! :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Rob Kuntz on December 16, 2012, 11:32:09 PM
Quote from: Benoist;609419
You're welcome, Rob. I could build a comprehensive step 1, 2... etc method to start with a finished hand drawn map and putting it all together with Photoshop but that'd take some time. Would you, or anyone else, for that matter, welcome such specific advice?


Thank you! :)


Well, yes!  :)  I was hoping you could just point to the various steps, but whatever you would think is the best way for getting to the gist of how to doctor up scanned maps, that would be tops! :)

Thanks again, Ben!

Rob
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Xaos on January 27, 2013, 03:51:49 PM
Quote from: The Butcher;501805
So, I'm preparing an old school D&D game, and right now the only thing I'm 100% sure is that it's going to be a dungeon-centric campaign (an approach which should hopefully come across as fairly novel to my group, a crowd of 30-somethings who grew up playing mostly AD&D 2e). Sounds like a good time for a dungeon-building thread! I've been reading up on the OSR blogosphere (Philotomy's Musings, Justin Alexander's "jaquaying" essays, and sundry stuff from Jeff Rients and Zak Smith and sundry other brilliant, creative guys who are into dungeon-crawling).

For me, this means a fairly big dungeon (certainly bigger than any I've ever designed back in the day; the biggest one I've ever designed so far had 3, maybe 4 levels) with plenty of discontinuous and non-linear construction (forks and loops, secret levels and sub-levels, elevations, shafts which bypass one or more levels, secret passages galore, etc.) the better to instigate and reward exploration for its own sake.

It's occurred to me that, since the campaign will be mostly centered around the dungeon, one could use the dungeon to reveal the history of the setting, with levels acting as archeological strata. The top level, the "tip of the iceberg", might be a relatively recent construction like an abandoned keep or monastery; the cellar might lead to a tomb complex dating to the Old Empire, then to ruined dwarven warrens dating back to before the Dwarf-Elf War, and so on, and so forth, until players reach evidence of the setting's SF roots. As PCs go further down the dungeon, scripts become ancient and unintelligible without scholarly assistance, treasure gets rarer and weirder, traps get deadlier and stranger, and of course, monsters grow bigger, badder and older.

The one thing that's been bugging me is, how do I go about it?
How big do I make the dungeon?
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?
What software, if any, do you recommend for dungeon map creation? I'm doing it by hand, but having simple and handy software at hand might be nice.
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how the fuck do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?

Advice on this, and on anything else you deem appropriate for a DM who's run his share of D&D (though not a lot of dungeon crawls, and none of them particularly extensive) is most welcome. Share your tips and tricks and success stories and hard-earned lessons. It's all good to me.

Besides, if anyone feels (like me) that theory-wank and edition-warring and general pointless trolling having been taking over the Roleplaying Games forum lately, here's a challenge: let's see how massive can we make an actual gaming thread with practical applications.


How the fuck does an entire city get buried?

Oh...
It happens. (http://www.cracked.com/article_19226_the-5-most-extravagant-ways-cities-have-been-wiped-out.html)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on January 27, 2013, 04:12:54 PM
Quote from: Xaos;622428
Oh...
It happens. (http://www.cracked.com/article_19226_the-5-most-extravagant-ways-cities-have-been-wiped-out.html)


Helike's story is unbelievable! Swallowed by the earth, covered by a tsunami wave, and then silt deposits which buried her again. Wow.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Phillip on January 30, 2013, 08:55:55 PM
Quote from: The Butcher;501805
How big do I make the dungeon?

That depends on what kind of game you're running. If you've got 20 players with 50 characters spanning 12 levels, and you expect to use it for 5 years,  then it probably needs to be bigger than if the campaign scope is smaller.

Fortunately, you can always make it bigger!

As long as there's always at least an expedition session's worth to explore,  I think you can call yourself ahead of the game.

Another factor is style. The pioneering D&D DMs favored a lot of "empty" (of monsters / treasures / traps) rooms: about 2/3 of the total. The T&T people, and I think a lot of West Coast DMs, went for more packed -- hence more compact -- labyrinths. A single dungeon can have regions of both sorts of density of obvious "encounters".

Note that with the former style, there are typically lots curious things to tempt investigation of 'empty' rooms. Players accustomed to more 'plotted' scenarios may feel obligated to devote more to attention than really warranted to oddities that they mistake for "plot hooks" or "critical clues".
 
Quote
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?

The original book recommended more, but I think three levels is quite ample if you're starting PCs at 1st experience level -- especially if the players are novices at the dungeon game (and likely to find a venture to the 4th level more frustrating than fun).

Even a single level might do, as the first adventure could be quite engaging enough even without the option (or mishap) of going deeper.

Note that in any case these need not encompass what will eventually be the whole of Level N. New ways can be "discovered", or even magically produced, later. For that matter, Arneson & Gygax suggested (and many DMs have employed) the technique of "remodeling" levels to freshen them up.


Quote
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?

You mean, I hope, the players. Ideally, you have not rounded them up at gunpoint; they have expressed an interest in playing the game! Try catering to that.

More generally, provide a wide variety of stuff. The players can choose for themselves whether to spend a lot of time on Brain Teaser X, or move along in quest of a fight. Keep in mind, however, the note above about players habituated to following "plot hooks" (which can be useful as well as problematic).

Quote
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling?

Most rules sets give some default rates of movement for cautious exploration. In old D&D, these are so slow that one can easily assume that they already account for sundry delays.

In any case, you'll want some sort of 'turn' or 'move' to tick off, convenient for such things as spell durations (the scale of which may vary with the rules set).

Quote
How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?

Precision beyond the 'turn' is probably superfluous in most cases. An incident that takes a small fraction can be treated as 'nil', on the theory that on average this will be balanced out by some other incident being counted as a turn even though it takes a bit less.

Quote
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?

I like it as "one-stop shopping" for adventure. If there's no intrigue afoot in town or wilderness or asea, the dungeon offers excitement whichever way one turns.

Whatever inspires the DM is a candidate for inclusion. In a world of magic, who is to say what is impossible?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on June 23, 2013, 05:38:17 PM
BANDIT LEVEL MAP KEY, PART 4

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Bandit-level-C-key-04.jpg)

100 – Chasm and webs. This large area has collapsed a long time ago, and now leads to a very large and deep chasm reaching into the depths of the underworld. Thick spider webs can be seen covering the chasm, stretching from stalactite to stalagmite, between the natural pillars of stone of this place. There is also a smell of sulphur in the air, like a bitter, acrid, persistent, very obvious scent of rotten eggs all around. Torches and open flames carried by the characters will flare and burn slightly more brightly as they approach this area.

These webs will not burn naturally, not like you might expect of usual spider webs, in any case: if exposed to a nourished fire (standing for more than a couple of rounds stubbornly trying to set the webs on fire despite the warning sparks such an action would spawn as a result), they will suddenly burst and create a chain reaction that is comparable to an exploring fireball (5-30 damage on a failed saving throw, half on a successful one) that will engulf the whole area in flame and smoke for a brief moment.

These webs are strong, however, and can easily support the weight of men as they travel at half speed through the area over the chasm from one side of the cave to the other (roll a Paralization saving throw once to see if people trip and get entangled in the webs as they proceed through the area). Such  an action will of course warn the Giant Man-eating spider of the presence of preys for her to feed on...

There is a hole in the webs over the SE corner of the chasm, as though some heavy weight had fallen through at torn the webs apart at this particular location, which leads to a little opening large enough for an unarmoured man to squeeze through on the side of the cliff bordering the abyss below. This passage leads to area (101), which was used some time ago by a fleeing prisoner to try to escape from this place, but he died there instead.

101 – Chimney up to the surface. After stretching from the edge of the chasm under area (100) in a general south-eastern direction for about 20-25 feet the passage mentioned above turn sharply upward, leading to a small ledge where a prisoner of the goals once found refuge to die there. Only his skeleton remains, along with bits and pieces of his original equipment. [Equipment carried]

Upwards beyond the ledge where the characters can find the skeleton the passage becomes incredibly tight. No normally constituted man could possibly squeeze any further.

102 – Lair of the Man-eating Spider. This area completely covered by webs to the point of looking like a giant tunnel, or funnel made out of webs. This is where the Man-eating spider can generally be found. This specimen is a beautiful, hairy arachnid of a general earthy, brownish colour that is reminiscent of the general appearance of the Goliath Bird-eating spider that can be found in the jungles of South America.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Goliath-birdeating-spider.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klHDzIIrsjY

Like its Earth equivalent, this specimen can kick her back legs to  project clouds of hair around her as a mean of protection. Treat her as a Giant Spider (MM 90) with the additional special ability to project 30' radius clouds of hair around her instead of biting. A saving throw against poison makes the effects of the cloud bearable (-2 on attack rolls nonetheless due to an immediate irritation of the eyes, nose and throat), whereas the alternative is crippling (severe irritation, crying, sneezing, coughing, -4 to attack rolls, half movement).

103 – The Spider's Eggs. This cavern is completely obstructed by thick spider webs. Hacking and slashing through, the party would find a large, 10-foot wide white bundle near its eastern wall. It is a bundle of spider eggs . Slashing the bundle open will release the eggs and trigger the premature hatching of a number of tiny hairy spiders, the offspring of the Man-eating spider at area (102) (20-120 hatching, treat as 1 HP, 1/2 HD critters doing one point of damage on a it, or as a group of little swarms 2-3 HD each, 1 HP representing a tiny spider within, attacking for 1-4 damage for each 6 HP it possesses). The skeleton of a man is glued to the webs behind the bundle (ripping it off would surely break the egg bundle apart): it carries 1-3 scrolls each inscribed with 1-3 spells of level 1-3 (determine randomly), 2-12 gems of 10 GP base value in a purse, and a strange, fist-sized pink crystal in the shape of a heart (the Good Heart of Zuun, see area 112 below).

104 – Muddy Cave. This area is perpetually wet. The mud here goes up to the waist and acts like a suction cup, making movement through it very difficult (MV reduced to a quarter speed). A number of undead are concealed by the mud. They will try to grab the legs of those who dare walk through, and will try to pull their victims down into the mud with them to suffocate (victims killed in such a fashion would be digested by the cursed muck and ultimately become skeletons themselves). Skeleton, MM 87. Consider this area a lair, with 3-30 present.

105 – Antechamber to the Harpies' Nest. Characters venturing there might be noticed by the Harpies at area (106) 2-in-6. The monsters will call the party in such an event (save versus magic, or approach them).

106 – The Harpies' Nest. This is the lair of a number of Harpies (MM 51, 2-12 present, AC 7, HD 3). They use the ventilation shafts at areas (107) and (108) to get in and out of the level. The nest is located on a rock protrusion hanging from the ceiling, right in the middle of this natural chamber. In the nest, 56 GP, 324 SP and a whopping 45,302 CP may be found. There is a potion of levitation (as per the spell) located there as well.

107, 108 – Ventilation Shafts. These vertical, natural ventilation shafts connect to the convoluted cave system above the level. This cave system eventually leads to the level 1b the Troglodyte fort and the surface beyond, and also connects with areas (112) and (14) on the level.

109 – The Grimlocks' Excavations. This area is where the excavations of the hobgoblins' grimlock slaves occur. There is a sinkhole right in the middle of this area leading down to mines where the grimlocks search for crystals necessary to the alchemist's experiments – see areas (58) and (59) for more information about Xaelaandder Bey the alchemist and his experiments. There is a 2-in-6 chance to meet a group of 1-10 Grimlocks and a leader (HD 3, AC 4) along with them come to or from the mines below. A small party of 1-4 hobgoblins might be there as well (referee's discretion). The mines form an isolated part of the waterworks sub-level below. All grimlocks actually hide valuable in their undies, or ... even more private places. For each individual roll d3. 1 = K Treasure (3-18 SP), 2 = L Treasure (2-12 EP), 3 M Treasure (2-8 GP). The leader will carry all three treasure types – same goes for the grimlocks at areas (110) and (111).

110 – The Grimlocks' Cave. The hobgoblins control 30 grimlock slaves who all live in this area and area (111) when they are not down the mines through the sinkhole at area (109). If no grimlocks were encountered at (109), there are 3-30 grimlocks along with 1-2 leaders present here. If grimlocks were met at (109), there are instead 2-20 grimlocks here and just one leader. The Champion of the Grimlock is present in this area 2-in-6. The grimlocks here as either worshipping the Hydra of area (112), fighting amongst themselves, playing cruel games, or eating scraps given to them by the hobgoblins.

111 – The Grimlocks' Lair. Those grimlocks who are not currently in the mines or present at area (110) will be here either resting or mating violently (not a pretty sight: These creatures are ugly, sadistic and worse than animals). 1-2 leaders are present here, depending on the number met at areas (109) and/or (110) previously (the grimlocks have a total of 3 leaders). Their Champion is present here 2-in-6. Treasure in lair:

112 – Levitating Stone Face and Hydra. This area is the bottom of a huge cylindrical shaft running all the way up to a cave system which ultimately emerges in level (1b Troglodyte Fort) and the surface beyond. The ventilation shafts of areas (107) and (108) connects with this large natural chimney, as well as the tunnels up the cracks in the dome of area (14).

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Voronja-cave-500.jpg)

The bottom of this shaft is entirely flooded but for a roughly 30 feet by 40 feet natural rock protrusion. A large block of rectangular stone levitates over it. A gigantic face has been carved on one of its sides, and under it, a hole where its heart ought to be.

The face in the block of stone is ancient, and may be awakened. It has been built by the Ancients of Mu, and was placed here aeons ago by the Sorcerer Kings who created this advanced location and the Troglodyte Fort above (level 1b). Placing one of the Hearts of Zuun with bring the face back to conscience. Its alignment will depend on which heart is placed in the socket, and its goals will vary accordingly, from giving the players information about the Sorcerer Kings, their experiments, the search for the magics of the Builders that preceded them, even parts of maps to different locations in the dungeon (Good Heart from area 103), to wanting to break free from this place, potentially charging the party with this quest which could potentially lead them to different locations in the dungeon (Neutral Heart from area 116), or just manipulating them so that it can take over the whole complex, as a sort of evil patron or semi-deity (Evil Heart from this area). If the face feels Magic Users around it (by the pool of water around the rock protrusion, for instance), it might push its conscience to make its heart socket throb and shine with an obviously magical aura.

A five-headed hydra (MM 53, HD 5, AC 5) lairs in the waters around. It is worshipped by the grimlocks, who seldom approach it, but for their Champion, who is the representative of the Hydra amongst them, and may be here imagining itself entertaining some form of dialog with the monster (the Hydra is semi-intelligent and just leaves the Champion alone because he brings it food in the form of the various sacrifices performed by the grimlocks for their multi-headed “god”).

The Champion (HD 4, HP 27, AC 3) is present here 2-in-6. He carries with him the ruby-coloured, fist-sized shard of crystal known as the Evil Heart of Zuun (which he recuperated from the depths of the waters around the levitating block of stone),  has a potion of water-breathing, and 3 gems of a base 50 GP value each.

The Hydra's treasure hoard is located deep underwater. It contains thousands of pieces of copper and silver, a few hundred pieces of gold and electrum, 1-8 gems of a base 100 GP value, 1-4 pieces of jewelry and a full suit of magical armor +1 that used to belong to one of the Sorcerer Kings.

113 – The Hobgoblins' Lair. There is always at least 10 hobgoblins in this room. 2-in-6 chance to meet 1-6 more and a sergeant with two assistants (HP 9, see Hobgoblin in MM 53). Determine individual treasure randomly (types J and M).

114 – The Hobgoblins' Cave. The hobgoblins' common area. 2-12 individual present, plus 2-12 of the Chief's bodyguards. They might be in the process of roasting one of the bandits who insulted Oldebert the First of area (47), or just about to start. A fight might already have broken out to determine who will get the first cut once the man is well done.

115 – Chamber of the Hobgoblin Chieftain. This area is the hobgoblin Chieftain's domain (AC 2, 22 HP, 1d10+1 damage, fights like a 4 HD monster). Those amongst his 15 bodyguards who are not at area (114) will be present here. They will each have personal wealth (J and M). The leader will carry 2-8 gems of a base 50 GP value, 1-4 gems of a base 100 GP value, 1-3 gems of a base 500 GP value, and one gem of a base 1,000 GP value. Note the boulders separating the hobgoblins' areas from the caves of the grimlocks at area (110) and beyond can be removed by a number of humanoids going at it for one full exploration turn, something the hobgoblins do twice a day to lead the grimlocks down to the mines and back.

116 – The Hobgoblins' Loot. The hobgoblins' stash is located here. Roll randomly for a treasure hoard type D from the MM. It also contains the Neutral Heart of Zuun in a locked chest with a poison needle trap.

117 – Prismatic room. See area (30) for more information.

Key Complete.

Next time: We are going to finish the discussion of this sample level with a wandering monster table, the discussion of the group dynamics and possible evolutions of the level throughout the campaign, as well as a set of possible objectives and adventure hooks that could get a party of adventurers involved here.

(http://enrill.net/images/play-by-posts/maps/volcano/Face-heart.jpg)

The levitating stone face of area (112).

Back to Map Key, Part 1. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=579792#post579792)

Link to all the posts in the series in my sig.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on June 25, 2013, 02:10:22 PM
Q: How big do I make the dungeon?

The short answer for me is "however big you want it to be". I don't define my campaign with a specific set of "protagonists." I don't construe my games as stories in the making. To quote E. Gary Gygax, "The adventure is the thing, not 'a story.' If you want stories, go read a book, If you want derring-do, play a real RPG and then tell the story of the adventure you barely survived afterwards. The tale is one determined by the players' characters' actions, surely!"

The fantasy games' milieu(s) exist(s) independently from a specific set of characters or party. The dungeon is a place that exists in the wilderness, and whoever wants to explore it can. The general expectation isn't to clean up entire levels to get to the bottom of the dungeon and "win the campaign", it's to explore what you can, one expedition at a time, probably investigating this set of stairs down or that strange idol you spotted the last time you were down there, to act on a bit of research you did when you were back in town, and so on. It's basically the Player's Handbook p.107+ (section "successful adventures"): the players' characters drive the game, set their objectives, and attempt to fulfill them during the expedition. Things can go awry or get badly sidetracked in the process, of course. Different players will have different characters and parties they belong to. Over time, the veteran players will create secondary characters to adventure with the newbies. Players will upgrade their henchmen to PC status, their hirelings to henchmen, and so on.

What I basically try to explain is that my campaign milieu is a live place, not a stage for a somewhat linear story line to take place.

From there, the expectation that the dungeon should be "as big as a specific set of players would care to explore" doesn't enter into my picture. I'm fine if the players decide to completely ignore the dungeon to venture in the wilderness for some time, or decide to make this or that town the center of their characters' activities in the world.

So the dungeon really can be as big as I want. If the party feels interested in this or that bit and keeps digging, cool, I'm ready for that. If the party wants to move on and do something else for a while, I'm cool with that too. As far as keeping the attention of the players focused on the dungeon, I find that if the dungeon is this sort of nexus of adventure and mystery in the immediate wilderness region around the PCs, if the each level is interesting in its own right, and each particular zone is made of interesting areas and cool dynamics, it's enough to get most players going for months and months of gaming back and forth, to and from the dungeon.

It's cool if you are running dungeons with a particular set of characters and have an expectation to "finish it through" with a kind of storyline progression or whatnot. I understand that can be fun too. It may depend on the time, commitments, however you enjoy the process of creating the environment in the first place, and so on, as well. It's just different strokes for different folks.

Remains the question which I think is just as important, if not more, actually:

Q: How small can the dungeon be?

I think the answer to that is in OD&D volume 3, The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures: "In beginning a dungeon it is advisable to construct at least three levels at once, noting where the stairs, trap doors (and chimneys) and slanting passages come out on lower levels, as well as the mouths of chutes and teleportation terminals."

Even though "a good dungeon will have no less than a dozen levels down, with offshot levels in addition," as it precises thereafter, I think we see in this quote the basic logic that sustains the creation of the gaming environment: it should be big enough to allow for a wide variety of exploration routes. It should involve many ways in which the game can unfold, in other words, so that the actual choices of the players, whether they decide to go left or right, up or down, actually matter and result in different game plays thereof. If no matter what you do the session ends up unfolding the same way, albeit with "encounter sequences" shuffled in a different order, then something's amiss. There should be more dynamism than that in the dungeon, because the players' agency in choosing where they go, what they do and how is ALL THEY HAVE. It's the reason why they play the dungeon exploration game in the first place.

So surely, one doesn't have to take this advice literally as "three levels or nothing". You could have one gigantic level with a dozen different entrances from the surface instead of three with chutes, stairs and slanting passages in between: Greg Gillespie's Barrowmaze comes to mind, on that score. But the essence is there: give the players' agency in the way they explore the place, make sure that different paths of exploration result in different game plays, and make it all interesting, intertwined, organic, and non-linear. The rest follows from there.

How ultimately small can a dungeon be? As small as it can without sacrificing exploration agency.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: J.L. Duncan on April 23, 2014, 09:47:09 PM
Benoist,

Just a heads up-

I posted links to two other forums for this great resource you've created. I said I would do this-then just plain forgot.

Great stuff!

Palladium Books: http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=143125

Kenzer & Co.: http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?62513-Advice-for-Building-a-Megadungeon-Great-Resource-Hackmaster&p=1252373#post1252373

Hope you are well-;)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: markfitz on April 24, 2014, 10:44:46 AM
So glad this got bumped! I just spent my afternoon reading it instead of correcting exam papers and consider it time well spent. It truly is inspiring stuff and make me hanker after designing a mega-dungeon of my own. Hell, just with the bandit level posted here I could a game for several sessions. Your process for coming up with the history of the dungeon really got me thinking about the possibilities for this kind of gaming where a huge underground complex actually makes detailed in-world sense. Huge hat-tip to you Benoist, this is a magical resource.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Benoist on May 13, 2014, 05:28:59 PM
Quote from: J.L. Duncan;744565
Benoist,

Just a heads up-

I posted links to two other forums for this great resource you've created. I said I would do this-then just plain forgot.

Great stuff!

Palladium Books: http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=143125

Very well, thank you! I'm glad you appreciated and spread the word about it.

Very cool! I'll keep an eye on those threads.

Kenzer & Co.: http://www.kenzerco.com/forums/showthread.php?62513-Advice-for-Building-a-Megadungeon-Great-Resource-Hackmaster&p=1252373#post1252373

Hope you are well-;)

Thank you! I am well indeed! Very glad you appreciated the advice and spread the link about!

That is so very cool. :)

Quote from: markfitz;744679
So glad this got bumped! I just spent my afternoon reading it instead of correcting exam papers and consider it time well spent. It truly is inspiring stuff and make me hanker after designing a mega-dungeon of my own. Hell, just with the bandit level posted here I could a game for several sessions. Your process for coming up with the history of the dungeon really got me thinking about the possibilities for this kind of gaming where a huge underground complex actually makes detailed in-world sense. Huge hat-tip to you Benoist, this is a magical resource.

Thank you very much, Mark! Just a heads up here that this bandit level actually got reworked later on and integrated into the Hobby Shop Dungeon world with Ernest Gary Gygax, Jr. It's actually the level featured in our preview of the Haunted Halls of the Beggar King (http://www.gp-adventures.com/shop/haunted-halls-of-the-beggar-king-gary-con-preview/) so if you'd like to get a sneak peek into the evolution of the whole thing, get the color map and see what it became in our campaign, please, click on the link, check it out and spread the word about it!

Thanks again guys. Your enthusiasm is deeply appreciated. This resource here will remain free for all to see, by the way. I fully intend to go on and finish it at some point.
Title: Why a megadungeon? And some thoughts on making it plausible.
Post by: Vandraman on June 04, 2014, 03:53:30 AM
OK, so my first query would be, why build a megadungeon? It's a throwback genre based on ancient tabletop boardgame-style experiences. It's almost impossible to generate a plausible sense of place, and you narrow your 'roleplaying' experience to a series of slaughterfests interrupted by puzzles like traps and secret doors. You say yourself you have a group of 30-somethings, who have some experience of gaming - why not design a setting which permits roleplaying with social interaction, moral complexity and meaningful choices, investigation (which is not mapping a dungeon, btw) and above all plausibility and perhaps something like alternative historical realism.

But, assuming you want a big dungeon experience and you never tire of traps, corridors and (almost always) melee combat, let me respond to some of your queries in the original post.

1) "Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how the fuck do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?" They never do. You would have to dig away all the dirt. And where there are ruins only partly buried, they sure as heck aren't teeming with life.

2) Ask youself how the inhabitants do the following things:
i) breathe. You put in a couple of vent holes, I see. But nowhere near enough to supply oxygen through the whole map on all levels. So how do the creatures exist without air? How do they cook their food? Fire can't burn down there. And there are no chimneys to vent the smoke.
ii) eat. How do they eat? You've got a whole nest of spiders in one corner there. Spiders eat flies and other insects. There's literally no food down there for regular sized spiders; how do giant spiders thrive? Same with the hobgoblins and other humanoids. Do they get deliveries?
iii) get out to raid. How do they go places? Or do they just sit in their rooms waiting for adventurers to come by and kill them? The journey to the surface seems to be miles and miles through nests of other monsters and evil humanoids. There are traps everywhere. Is their existence confined to a few rooms in their designated corner of this level? How weird for them.
iv) trade. Why would they have 'treasure' especially treasure in locked strongboxes (built from the wood hewn from the dungeon trees, no doubt). What kind of economy can there be in hobgoblin world? How do they leearn stuff? Are there kids? Are they evil too?

The best answer megadungeon builders usually muster for all this stuff is 'ancient wizards made this place like it' and so there must be magical air vents, magical food supplies, magical clothing, axe making, maybe TV to keep the intelligent races from going nuts in their tiny suite of rooms.

Are all the critters evil? Is their response always ' you have entered my lair, now we will kill you'? Do they have any aims in life, any goals, any culture? Or are they two dimensional enemies defines by their HP and AC only?

After a few hours in a zone this artificial rolling to kill things and using 10 foot poles to test for traps in the anti-corridors (designed mainly to prevent passage, not to facilitate it) - do you and your players not scratch your heads and think - isn't there more to roleplaying than this??

If you want to make an underground space, I would suggest as adult roleplayers you address the issues I raise above - make the space a living, breathing place which houses creatures in plausible ecosystems and with working cultures. Allow a range of ways to engage with the intelligent races. You have a smart group of adults in a room - you admire creativity and intelligence - aim higher?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Sacrosanct on June 04, 2014, 09:45:49 AM
Quote from: Vandraman;755250
OK, so my first query would be, why build a megadungeon? It's a throwback genre based on ancient tabletop boardgame-style experiences. It's almost impossible to generate a plausible sense of place, and you narrow your 'roleplaying' experience to a series of slaughterfests interrupted by puzzles like traps and secret doors. You say yourself you have a group of 30-somethings, who have some experience of gaming - why not design a setting which permits roleplaying with social interaction, moral complexity and meaningful choices, investigation (which is not mapping a dungeon, btw) and above all plausibility and perhaps something like alternative historical realism.


FYI, there are megadungeons like this.  

But to really address your entire post in a simple response:  Are people having fun playing it?  That's the only question that matters.  Not "How do they make fire in one?"  It sounds like you won't have fun playing a traditional "non-realistic" dungeon, but a lot of people actually do.  I imagine most megadungeons are catering towards them, and not yourself.

After all, it's just a game.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on June 04, 2014, 11:39:48 AM
Quote from: Vandraman;755250
OK, so my first query would be, why build a megadungeon? It's a throwback genre based on ancient tabletop boardgame-style experiences. It's almost impossible to generate a plausible sense of place, and you narrow your 'roleplaying' experience to a series of slaughterfests interrupted by puzzles like traps and secret doors. You say yourself you have a group of 30-somethings, who have some experience of gaming - why not design a setting which permits roleplaying with social interaction, moral complexity and meaningful choices, investigation (which is not mapping a dungeon, btw) and above all plausibility and perhaps something like alternative historical realism.

r?


I like a good gritty urban investigation as much as the next guy, but I think megadungeons can be loads of fun as a player, and they will offer up plenty of roleplaying opportunities provided the PCs don't hack everything they encounter. I do like plausibility and realism in doses, but I also want fantastical things that are not strictly based on history. I mean a real dungeon is going to be nothing like the ones we have in D&D, but they also are a bit boring. And I say that as a GM who tends to lean on real world history a lot, whose dungeons tend to be more real world. It the right rpg that works great, but in one focused on adventure like D&D, you can take liberties with reality.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on June 04, 2014, 11:41:51 AM
Quote from: Vandraman;755250


If you want to make an underground space, I would suggest as adult roleplayers you address the issues I raise above - make the space a living, breathing place which houses creatures in plausible ecosystems and with working cultures. Allow a range of ways to engage with the intelligent races. You have a smart group of adults in a room - you admire creativity and intelligence - aim higher?


I don't usually comment like this. But what pretentious crap. There is plenty of room in the hobby for dungeon focused play as well as more realistic role-play heavy (and there is a good deal in between as well).
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Vandraman on June 04, 2014, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755274
FYI, there are megadungeons like this.  

But to really address your entire post in a simple response:  Are people having fun playing it?  That's the only question that matters.  Not "How do they make fire in one?"  It sounds like you won't have fun playing a traditional "non-realistic" dungeon, but a lot of people actually do.


I'd honestly really like to see a megadungeon like that. For real. Do you have a link?

Re. having fun - sure, I can see it being fun for a couple of hours as a retro 'let's turn our brains off and play an old school dungeon hack and slash' for a bit, but I'm genuinely puzzled about the appeal after a short spell. You don't get tired of 'roll to hit' and 'roll damage' and 'disarm the trap on the chest' then 'take the loot back to town to sell up' then rinse and repeat?

I enjoyed it when I was beginning roleplaying. I like it in CRPGs and in gamebooks occasionally. But when I have real gamers in a room, there is just SO much more this gaming experience can be. I say again - I'm genuinely baffled why you wouldn't mostly choose the non hack-and-slash megadungeon path. Unless you had a really, really bad day at work!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Vandraman on June 04, 2014, 01:25:50 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;755289
I don't usually comment like this. But what pretentious crap. There is plenty of room in the hobby for dungeon focused play as well as more realistic role-play heavy (and there is a good deal in between as well).

Well, sorry you find it pretentious, fella. I'm not pretending anything, actually, and you don't know me, so I find it odd you would assert some sort of pretence. And honestly, disappointing to find an ad hominem attack from a Moderator in response to what is a pretty carefully reasoned and enthusiastic-about-the-hobby post.

As I say, in the confines of a CRPG, or a gamebook, I can see you don't have the human resources to generate true creativity, so you get more dungeon-style experiences with all the compromises in immersion and plausibility (not 'realism', per se - I'm not especially focused on recreating the minutiae of history, or limiting imaginative and fantasy content). I do find it odd that so many years on from the earlist Gygaxian endeavours so many people spend so much time on such a narrow gaming experience. Beginners, sure, simplify the action. And later, sure, enjoy some combats, no problem. I'm proposing wall to wall social interaction with nothing else. I just think dungeons tend strongly towards a feeling of artificiality and a really really limited 'palette'. Compare it to eating Cheerios all three meals of the day, all the time. Wouldn't you wonder why you don't try something else - there's alot of tastier food out there!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Sacrosanct on June 04, 2014, 01:41:32 PM
Quote from: Vandraman;755298
I'd honestly really like to see a megadungeon like that. For real. Do you have a link?


Off the top of my head (https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/107308672422345398151)...

Quote

Re. having fun - sure, I can see it being fun for a couple of hours as a retro 'let's turn our brains off and play an old school dungeon hack and slash' for a bit, but I'm genuinely puzzled about the appeal after a short spell. You don't get tired of 'roll to hit' and 'roll damage' and 'disarm the trap on the chest' then 'take the loot back to town to sell up' then rinse and repeat?


As I said, you don't have to get it.  You have your preferences and apparently dungeon crawling isn't one of them.  Good for you.  Other people do like it.  I don't like tactical play.  But I know a lot of people do, so I'm not going to go around saying tactical grid based play is dumb.

Quote


I enjoyed it when I was beginning roleplaying. I like it in CRPGs and in gamebooks occasionally. But when I have real gamers in a room, there is just SO much more this gaming experience can be. I say again - I'm genuinely baffled why you wouldn't mostly choose the non hack-and-slash megadungeon path. Unless you had a really, really bad day at work!


"Real" gamers?  :nono:

take that kind of attitude and shove it.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on June 04, 2014, 01:53:13 PM
Quote from: Vandraman;755300
Well, sorry you find it pretentious, fella. I'm not pretending anything, actually, and you don't know me, so I find it odd you would assert some sort of pretence. And honestly, disappointing to find an ad hominem attack from a Moderator in response to what is a pretty carefully reasoned and enthusiastic-about-the-hobby post.

As I say, in the confines of a CRPG, or a gamebook, I can see you don't have the human resources to generate true creativity, so you get more dungeon-style experiences with all the compromises in immersion and plausibility (not 'realism', per se - I'm not especially focused on recreating the minutiae of history, or limiting imaginative and fantasy content). I do find it odd that so many years on from the earlist Gygaxian endeavours so many people spend so much time on such a narrow gaming experience. Beginners, sure, simplify the action. And later, sure, enjoy some combats, no problem. I'm proposing wall to wall social interaction with nothing else. I just think dungeons tend strongly towards a feeling of artificiality and a really really limited 'palette'. Compare it to eating Cheerios all three meals of the day, all the time. Wouldn't you wonder why you don't try something else - there's alot of tastier food out there!


If you can't see how your coming off as pretentious, not sure how what I can really say.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Vandraman on June 04, 2014, 02:06:47 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755302
Off the top of my head (https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/107308672422345398151)...



As I said, you don't have to get it.  You have your preferences and apparently dungeon crawling isn't one of them.  Good for you.  Other people do like it.  I don't like tactical play.  But I know a lot of people do, so I'm not going to go around saying tactical grid based play is dumb.

"Real" gamers?  :nono:

take that kind of attitude and shove it.


Ok, thanks for the link, I'll have a look in a bit.

it's fine saying 'I like dungeon crawling' - but I wonder can you develop on that a bit? What's the appeal?

And 'real gamers' - as opposed to a book, or a computer. Living, real people with human intelligence and capacity to improvise and adapt, ie. all humans who game. So cut the offensive language, fella.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: robiswrong on June 04, 2014, 02:16:57 PM
A well-designed, well-run megadungeon *is* a living, breathing organism of its own, not a set of encounters to be overcome.  Actions have reactions.  The inhabitants react to what occurs as much as you do.

The inherent constraints of the dungeon format are great for forcing hard choices.  When you can't run in any given direction, thinking about how you're going to get out becomes important.

Additionally, old school D&D isn't really "about" hack'n'slash.  It's about "how much treasure can I get out and escape with my life".  Yes, I mean GP for XP.  It's a small rule that vastly increases the types of play that the game supports.

Going into a dungeon isn't about being the Big Damn Heroes that kill everything.  It's about getting in and escaping with your damn life.  It's survival horror.

Edit:  If you're judging dungeons mainly based on your experiences when you were ten, try them with some adults.  And since you seem to be somewhat into the whole indie thing, you might try reading this:  https://plus.google.com/111266966448135449970/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: S'mon on June 04, 2014, 02:19:55 PM
Quote from: Vandraman;755300
Well, sorry you find it pretentious, fella. I'm not pretending anything, actually, and you don't know me, so I find it odd you would assert some sort of pretence. And honestly, disappointing to find an ad hominem attack from a Moderator in response to what is a pretty carefully reasoned and enthusiastic-about-the-hobby post.


He he, welcome to TheRPGSite! :D
They've been quite gentle with you so far...
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Vandraman on June 04, 2014, 02:20:29 PM
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;755307
If you can't see how your coming off as pretentious, not sure how what I can really say.


If you can't clearly express where you think I'm pretending to know of experience something which I do not, or using words I don't understand, I can only assume you're mis-using the word 'pretentious' in the same way a high school kid uses it to dismiss arguments or ideas without engaging with them.

Could you try reasoned argument instead of dismissing my 'aim higher' suggestion? And let's remember, my tone throughout has been at the level of suggestion and 'you might like to consider' rather than to dismiss with one -liners or condemn whole groups. I'm somewhat puzzled about the enduring popularity of dungeon appeal, but I get some of its appeal. Partly that's why I'm engaging in this discussion. I invite you to explain what appeals to you.

You could say 'I never actually find myself questioning the realism of a dungeon environment, I just take it as part of the suspension of disbelief inherent in the campaign we're running. I actually like the puzzle-solving and simplicity of the task. Each in the group has to work effectively together to overcome the challenges, and this forms a tight group bond which I find satisfying. It's mechanical but it requires expertise and good teamwork. I don't want complex nuanced social interaction in a dungeon bash - I play other games for that.' Or whatever.  

But 'you're so pretentious' - that rebounds back on you and makes you look dumb, man. Engage brain before your next reply.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Vandraman on June 04, 2014, 02:25:50 PM
Quote from: robiswrong;755317
A well-designed, well-run megadungeon *is* a living, breathing organism of its own, not a set of encounters to be overcome.  Actions have reactions.  The inhabitants react to what occurs as much as you do.

The inherent constraints of the dungeon format are great for forcing hard choices.  When you can't run in any given direction, thinking about how you're going to get out becomes important.

Additionally, old school D&D isn't really "about" hack'n'slash.  It's about "how much treasure can I get out and escape with my life".  Yes, I mean GP for XP.  It's a small rule that vastly increases the types of play that the game supports.

Going into a dungeon isn't about being the Big Damn Heroes that kill everything.  It's about getting in and escaping with your damn life.  It's survival horror.


Thanks - this is really interesting stuff. This perspective/ 'mood' hadn't really occurred to me. Looks like I have some reading to do :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on June 04, 2014, 02:29:48 PM
Quote from: Vandraman;755321
If you can't clearly express where you think I'm pretending to know of experience something which I do not, or using words I don't understand, I can only assume you're mis-using the word 'pretentious' in the same way a high school kid uses it to dismiss arguments or ideas without engaging with them.
.


I am not going to debate words with you. And I am absolutley being dismissive of your argument because your language and tone suggest you are trolling.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: robiswrong on June 04, 2014, 03:23:25 PM
Quote from: Vandraman;755323
Thanks - this is really interesting stuff. This perspective/ 'mood' hadn't really occurred to me. Looks like I have some reading to do :)


Dungeon-based gaming (and old school gaming) is very different from what you're probably used to.  The analogy I often use here is racing cars vs. Jeeps, but I'll reverse it this time, so that my analogy stays consistent.

You're used to driving a Jeep and going offroad.  Megadungeons and the style of play surrounding them are like race cars.  They do a specialized thing, and they take that thing to the extreme.

From an off-roader perspective, the question you might ask is "why limit yourself to just going on a prepared track?  With my Jeep, I can do *everything*!"  Which is true.  But you're not going to get the same thrill of acceleration, the same level of handling, the same pure adrenaline rush as you test your skill like you would from a race car.

Don't judge a megadungeon game by the same criteria you'd judge a (from your perspective) 'normal' game.  Judge it by its *own* criteria.  Find someone running a megadungeon game that knows what they're doing, and ask to join, and play without your preconceived notions of what gaming "should be".  You might find you like it.  You might not.  But at least you'll be dealing with the thing *itself*, and not how the thing compares to your preconceived notions.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: robiswrong on June 04, 2014, 03:25:12 PM
Quote from: S'mon;755320
He he, welcome to TheRPGSite! :D
They've been quite gentle with you so far...


Hell, he hasn't even been called a Swine yet!
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Vandraman on June 04, 2014, 04:35:46 PM
Quote from: robiswrong;755338
Hell, he hasn't even been called a Swine yet!


No, so far just been called 'pretentious' and a 'troll' - and this from a moderator, no less.

I like the analogy of the race car and jeep: think that clarifies things nicely- mind if I borrow that for an article I am writing on this topic? I'll cite you, if you like?
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Sacrosanct on June 04, 2014, 04:39:54 PM
Quote from: Vandraman;755373
No, so far just been called 'pretentious' and a 'troll' - and this from a moderator, no less.



Look.  Brendan is probably the most laid back, non-judgmental guy I've ever ran across in the internet.  If you can't see you your use of terms like "real gamers' or "that's ok for newbs" comes across as pretentious, then either you are trolling, or you're Sheldon from Big Bang Theory and are completely oblivious to social interaction etiquette.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: robiswrong on June 04, 2014, 04:46:17 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755381
Look.  Brendan is probably the most laid back, non-judgmental guy I've ever ran across in the internet.  If you can't see you your use of terms like "real gamers' or "that's ok for newbs" comes across as pretentious, then either you are trolling, or you're Sheldon from Big Bang Theory and are completely oblivious to social interaction etiquette.

In his defense, it's certainly possible to read the "real gamers" comment as being about "flesh and blood" as opposed to "not lame gamers", if you look at the comment again.  Don't get me wrong - I took it as "not lame gamers", too, and it's a phrase that's loaded enough that people should be careful with it.

As far as the whole "anti-dungeon" mentality, that's pretty prevalent in wider RPG circles.  A lot of gamers look at the lame dungeon games they played when they were 12 and mis-associate the lameness with the dungeon rather than them being 12.  Cool?  Not really.  But pretty damn common, and I'd rather take a few minutes to explain how a *good* dungeon works, rather than attacking the guy.

I mean, I look at it like this - there's a lot of knowledge on this site about how the real old-school stuff works that's not generally available.  I'd like to see more people experience that, and if someone comes in with a common misconception, I'd rather them walk away with a more positive perception.

Quote from: Vandraman;755373
No, so far just been called 'pretentious' and a 'troll' - and this from a moderator, no less.

I like the analogy of the race car and jeep: think that clarifies things nicely- mind if I borrow that for an article I am writing on this topic? I'll cite you, if you like?

If it's helpful, sure.  I don't see the need for citations, really.  I mean, if it's for a professional piece in a magazine or something, maybe, but if it's a blog post or something somewhere don't worry about it.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on June 04, 2014, 05:00:33 PM
Quote from: Vandraman;755373
No, so far just been called 'pretentious' and a 'troll' - and this from a moderator, no less.


Well, that is how you came across to me, and you hit a number of key words that suggested troll from certain other forums to me as well. Now it is entirely possible I am wrong, and entirely possible I judged you too quickly. But I do think it sounds pretentious when you talk about play the way you did in your initial post.

You have to understand, the moderation policies here are really light and mods get into it just like any other poster.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bedrockbrendan on June 04, 2014, 05:01:50 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;755381
Look.  Brendan is probably the most laid back, non-judgmental guy I've ever ran across in the internet.  


In his defense, I didn't come across as laid back and non-judgmental in that post at all.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: The Butcher on June 04, 2014, 05:39:17 PM
Quote from: Vandraman;755323
Thanks - this is really interesting stuff. This perspective/ 'mood' hadn't really occurred to me. Looks like I have some reading to do :)


You could start with, I don't know, the very thread you showed up to crap in? ;)

Or maybe with Matt Finch's Quick Primer For Old School Gaming (http://www.lulu.com/shop/matthew-finch/quick-primer-for-old-school-gaming/ebook/product-3159558.html;jsessionid=51C2C79D7667193EE4474A06F3321829) followed by Philotomy's Musings (http://www.grey-elf.com/philotomy.pdf) (skip straight to the one titled "The Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld", but they're all good). That's the best crash course on OSR and classic D&D gaming I can think of, and should give you some much needed context to this thread.

If you want another example of a dungeon rife with roleplaying possibilities, you could do a lot worse than TSR classic B4 The Lost City (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/17084/B4-The-Lost-City-Basic) — in which three factions fight over a ruined underground city. Ample opportunity for social interaction and intrigue alongside classic dungeonesque survival horror.

Welcome to theRPGsite, BTW. I hope you'll find this site a treasure trove of old school (not just D&D) roleplaying wisdom and experience, as I have. Don't mind the "personal offences", most people here can take it as well as they can dish out and I think it's all good as long as there's a decent signal-to-noise ratio. Sell your ego, buy a thick skin and hop in – water's fine. :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bloody Stupid Johnson on October 28, 2014, 06:24:55 AM
(bump)
Obvious thought (prompted by the old illustration where a troll finds a string heroes are leaving to mark their trail) - is that maybe monsters will follow PCs tracks through a dungeon. I've actually never seen PCs use string, but, a lot of monsters will have scent or similar abilities. Maybe this is something the GM can determine based off their layout and where monsters are, or you could start increasing the chance of wandering monsters if PCs have travelled a long way without something that'll break a scent trail (wading through underground rivers, going through a teleporter, you know), particularly if they're crossing a lot of side passages where thingies can patrol.
Not everything will be able to open doors obviously, so monsters might also pile up along the way back out.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Xaos on November 19, 2014, 02:08:00 AM
Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;794625
(bump)
Obvious thought (prompted by the old illustration where a troll finds a string heroes are leaving to mark their trail) - is that maybe monsters will follow PCs tracks through a dungeon. I've actually never seen PCs use string, but, a lot of monsters will have scent or similar abilities. Maybe this is something the GM can determine based off their layout and where monsters are, or you could start increasing the chance of wandering monsters if PCs have travelled a long way without something that'll break a scent trail (wading through underground rivers, going through a teleporter, you know), particularly if they're crossing a lot of side passages where thingies can patrol.
Not everything will be able to open doors obviously, so monsters might also pile up along the way back out.


Oh!  This gave me an idea!

Let's say that in the system you're using, you roll a die to determine wandering monsters, with a roll of "1" resulting in a monster.

Now, house rule that you are going to be rolling TWO dice.  And only if you get snake eyes (two "natural 1's") do you get a wandering monster in the player's vicinity.  But if you roll a single 1, then it appears that the players have gotten past a monster....but its not so.

Something has found their trail and will find them.  The DM does NOT roll the die with a 1 until he rolls another one (making the two dice a proper snake eyes), which will be the tracking monster (usually from a dungeon level previously explored by the players instead of the one they are on.)  The 2nd dice might be a smaller type than normal (d4 instead of d6, for instance) to increase the odds if the players have been particularly messy (leaving lots of bodies and broken doors, generally disrupting the ecosystem of the Underworld, etc.) during this dungeon delve.
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Bloody Stupid Johnson on November 19, 2014, 05:15:35 AM
Could work :)
Title: Advice on building a megadungeon, and a campaign around it
Post by: Majus on January 28, 2016, 04:33:21 AM
I know that this thread is old, but I'm currently in the early stages of planning and running a megadungeon (with the understanding that those players who want to can design and run one or more levels) and wanted to say that the discussion here is absolutely excellent. Bravo!