Quote from: thedungeondelver;752378I am okay with "BNI" for the Starter Set.  For the sake of people starting D&D for the first time I would have liked to have seen the character creation rules in there.  I don't think it's the worst I just think it could have been better.  Get it?

Ditto.

Ok, can we get real and toss the cost argument down the toilet where it belongs?  Paizo delivered way more content then WotC is going to do, way more then the difference in cost would account for.

If Paizo made money on the Pathfinder Beginner Box, then WotC could easily add the chargen rules into the D&D Starter Set and still make money.

But..Capitalism!  Yeah, the Beginner Box didn't sink Paizo did it?  No, think it probably did a little bit of good, eh?  Tripping over gold bars on your way to pick up a penny is not the sort of blind knee-jerk calculation WotC should be looking at.

Now if the guys at WotC sat down, knocked the ball around and came up with:
1. The intended use of the Starter Set, ie. 'Pick up and Play, Now!" could actually be hurt with chargen.
2. The intended target, new gamers unfamiliar with older RPG models but very familiar with digital products wouldn't be bothered in the slightest by a digital addition, in fact they'd probably think it was modern, natural and cool.

Then they're making good decisions.  You may disagree with the reasoning, but they have sound reasoning.

If what happened was...
Hasbro: You need to hit the $20 price point and must have a per unit profit of X otherwise it's a no-go, and the only way they can hit X is by cutting chargen, then it's unfortunate, because they don't have their shit together.

We're never gonna know which one it is.  One thing for sure though is that the mini-me Gordon Geckos who think WotC should be counting pennies on this one should flush their shit for brains out with Drano and then go back to school.  Brand Damage is a thing.  Like it, love it or hate it, the fact is, WotC damaged the Brand with 4e.  Worrying about rounding errors and significant digits at this point is asinine.

Yeah they need to make money, they also need to recapture the lead in a market in which they've been overtaken due to their own mismanagement and incompetence.  You don't do that without spending. Period.

Unless Hasbro and WotC have the same interns in place who were running the show in 2008, I doubt highly it's a cost issue, or at least I hope the hell for their sake it's not.

The fact that the 3 core books are listed as being optional tells me that WotC is putting way more thought into this from the game design point of view, and the idea that they would chop chargen out of the box for the first time in 40 years due to some fraction of a percentage is just...well, not a very good one.

You don't retake the lead in a market without doing something bold.  So far, it looks like they're being pretty damn bold.

Quote from: kythri;752402By their very nature, these are people that don't have a problem with jumping online for things - to the point that they're participants in a niche aspect of a niche hobby.

So, maybe there's something else there?

I may jump online for things - but I don't run games unless I have them in hardcopy. So I get a hardcopy of eg OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord before I run them, just like I get 4e hardbacks and don't rely on the 4e online tools.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;752405You might also notice that plenty of people on forums are still anti-pdf, something I've never seen really from the younger crowd. Just because someone learns how to use forums, doesn't mean they are accepting of other digital offerings.

Yep, if I'm going to use a pdf in play, I print it out.

I'd add that somebody at WotC thinks chargen is important for a certain set of buyers of the starter set, after all they are going to provide it for free on line.

Quote from: S'mon;752415Yep, if I'm going to use a pdf in play, I print it out.

same here.  Not a fan of referring to digital media when I'm running an adventure

So then. Playing Paizo Pathfinder Society and adventure things with D&D 5E.

Any takers?

Quote from: CRKrueger;752411Ok, ...
If Paizo made money on the Pathfinder Beginner Box, then WotC could easily add the chargen rules into the D&D Starter Set and still make money.

But..Capitalism!  Yeah, the Beginner Box didn't sink Paizo did it?  No, think it probably did a little bit of good, eh?  Tripping over gold bars on your way to pick up a penny is not the sort of blind knee-jerk calculation WotC should be looking at.
...

I wonder how many new gamers Paizo's beginner box generated.

I'm sure there were some, but I haven't heard much about it.

The thing that somewhat inexplicably gets my goat the most is that they seem to be planning to charge 20 bucks for 4 minis in a blind booster.

I say "inexplicable" because minis are more window dressing than requirement for my personal D&D experience. Maybe it's that they have the temerity to call a package of minis a "booster" like it's a freakin' CCG.

This seems like the most obvious naked grab for cash, but if I they make their filthy lucre that way and are more giving with things like free character gen rules that aren't part of some crippleware then maybe I can give them a pass on the mini thing.

We may not all agree on the strategy of a starter box vs. beginner box vs. the complete game however we all agree that the recent strange marketing efforts have spawned some heated debate (read: PR). Amirite? Guys? Yeah?

Quote from: Piestrio;752390In nearly 20 years of gaming I've met EXACTLY 2 other people who posted on RPG fourms.

In 2010, I did a survey at every con game I did that year asking if anyone in my RPG games have ever heard of RPG.net, OSR, retroclones, etc.

Out of dozens of gamers, I found one. Just as gamers who go to cons is a subset of gamers, gamers who are involved in RPGs online is another subset.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752411The fact that the 3 core books are listed as being optional tells me that WotC is putting way more thought into this from the game design point of view

PHB Optional? Do you have a link?

The Amazon page for the 5e PHB says this:  
The Player's Handbook® is the essential reference for every Dungeons & Dragons® roleplayer.

Optional =/= Essential

MMs & DMGs are always optional for players, just not DMs.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752411You don't retake the lead in a market without doing something bold.  So far, it looks like they're being pretty damn bold.

If you think 5e is "pretty damn bold", let me introduce you to chicken broth which you will find "very spicy."

Quote from: trechriron;752460Amirite?

If lame ass marketing is still marketing, then you are rite. Its almost laughable how badly this launch is going. Oddly, I have never seen any of this clusterfuckery when WotC launches new Magic editions. Clearly, the RPG division is the short bus of the company.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;752458The thing that somewhat inexplicably gets my goat the most is that they seem to be planning to charge 20 bucks for 4 minis in a blind booster.

I say "inexplicable" because minis are more window dressing than requirement for my personal D&D experience. Maybe it's that they have the temerity to call a package of minis a "booster" like it's a freakin' CCG.

This seems like the most obvious naked grab for cash, but if I they make their filthy lucre that way and are more giving with things like free character gen rules that aren't part of some crippleware then maybe I can give them a pass on the mini thing.

In their defense... WOTC's been selling blind-bag minis since fairly early in 3.5. At that point they had a miniatures skirmish game to support, though. It remains to be seen if they have any plans to do something like that again.

Quote from: LibraryLass;752463In their defense... WOTC's been selling blind-bag minis since fairly early in 3.5. At that point they had a miniatures skirmish game to support, though. It remains to be seen if they have any plans to do something like that again.

I am curious if it really does drive additional purchases enough to be worth the annoyance on the part of consumers in getting a lot of a mini they do not like?

I am actually not sure.  Many marketing strategies that aren't my preference do seem to work for others.

Quote from: CRKrueger;752411One thing for sure though is that the mini-me Gordon Geckos who think WotC should be counting pennies on this one should flush their shit for brains out with Drano and then go back to school.  Brand Damage is a thing.  Like it, love it or hate it, the fact is, WotC damaged the Brand with 4e.  Worrying about rounding errors and significant digits at this point is asinine.

Yeah they need to make money, they also need to recapture the lead in a market in which they've been overtaken due to their own mismanagement and incompetence.  You don't do that without .

Soooo.... the 5e roll out strikes you as an actual attempt to retake the RPG market lead?

Quote from: Spinachcat;752462PHB Optional? Do you have a link?

Back of Starter Set.


Back of PHB


Back of MM


Back of DMG

Quote from: Spinachcat;752462Optional =/= Essential

The Starter contains Essential Rules, with free chargen.  The PHB is "essential reference", meaning it has what you need above 5th like the text of higher level spells mainly I would assume.

However Tyranny of Dragons can be run just with the Starter Set, so the PHB is really as optional as ECMI were.

Quote from: Spinachcat;752462If you think 5e is "pretty damn bold", let me introduce you to chicken broth which you will find "very spicy."

They're attempting to reach all the fragments of the playerbase, they're putting out a Starter Set without chargen relying on pdfs and they're giving away free sections of the PHB and who knows what else.  For WotC, that's as bold as they've been since the OGL.

Quote from: Spinachcat;752462Clearly, the RPG division is the short bus of the company.

Yeah I really doubt they could have handled the announcement worse if they had tried.