Quote from: Benoist;752069Nope. You would not like me angry.

It was an Incredible Hulk reference, in case that was unclear.

Or, if you prefer, the Credible Hulk:

Quote from: Simlasa;752070What makes you think the difference in meaning there is so obvious... particularly to these hypothetical (and alternatingly stupid/brilliant) newcomers? "Lil Timmy can figure out any device I put in front of him, but sadly would be stymied into a coma by full chargen rules in an RPG."

Because starter box aimed at a DM means play NOW with no explicit limits. A beginner box aimed at everyone means you can play this limited version.

Quote from: Marleycat;752079Because starter box aimed at a DM means play NOW with no explicit limits. A beginner box aimed at everyone means you can play this limited version.

So your saying that a box with chargen is more limited than one without?

Uh... because whatever happens with the 'secret' from wotc your comment doesn't seem quite right.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a professionally printed Basic D&D book right next to the starter set in Target? One that might even fit in the Starter box.

144 pgs, $20

I would pay $40 for an updated Mentzer Basic Box Set using modern rules.

Oh, and Fuck Kinkos/Staples/Office Max and pdf printing. None of those assholes can figure the difference between printing actual size or printing to fit.

Ben is right and everyone seems dismiss his concerns because WOTC is offering 15% of their PH (Basic Character creation) presumably for free on their site. But we're expected to print this shit out on our own? And seriously, for us old bastards that like to use our hands to caress tits instead of stare at Photoshopped balloons, How about WOTC use their economy of scale and do the printing for us. You know, take pride in being the flagship RPG company. Instead of expecting me to introduce people to RPGs with my ghetto-bound, double-sided, laser-printed (or expensive color-inkjetted) 20lb crap paper printout of the character creation rules. I expect that from the hobbists in the OSR, but WOTC, seriously.

I bought Gonnerman's Basic Fantasy Role-playing Game for $5 on Amazon. I heard it was sold at cost, but after reading, it's well worth $20 or more. Seriously WOTC. I so want 5e to succeed, and I am sure I'm in an overly pissy mood about the Starter set not being the Basic set that I want, but my vision seems so close, so within reach that I am baffled as to why it doesn't seem to be the way this new D&D is rolling out.

Quote from: JasperAK;752094I would pay $40 for an updated Mentzer Basic Box Set using modern rules.

See, that's what I was hoping this boxed set would be. I've got no real burning interest in D&D but a basic all-in-one box that would get me up to date and playable on modern D&D grabbed my interest. I've got zero interest beyond that though, I'm not hot to buy the $50 corebooks.
I was interested, curious... and now I'm not. Oh well.

Quote from: Simlasa;752108See, that's what I was hoping this boxed set would be. I've got no real burning interest in D&D but a basic all-in-one box that would get me up to date and playable on modern D&D grabbed my interest. I've got zero interest beyond that though, I'm not hot to buy the $50 corebooks.
I was interested, curious... and now I'm not. Oh well.

40 bucks? To get something for 20 bucks and download a PDF? Get real and fuck off. The former I can't even sniff the latter I can afford. If I cared.

Key is.... I don't care because I'M A PLAYER. I already have the rules as do anyone I care about. Let the DM sweat the details.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;751916Chargen only becomes overwhelming once you start requiring 900 pages of rules to pretend to be an elf.

Moldvay basic covered the whole deal in 64 pages for players AND DMs. If you are convinced that you need dozens of mechanical widgets to make your own character then I see the issue.

How many people completely new to rpgs think that they would need over a dozen dial and switch doodads to make their own character if some more experienced player didn't convince them of that?

It is likewise the same with game rules. All that needs to be explained at the start is that you are playing the role of (insert character name), play begins in the town of (town name), what do you do?

That formula still works for new gamers today.

So... Im pretty sure we are actually in agreement then? I love Moldvay for the reasons you just listed, thats why I'm hoping the new edition will allow for that style of play. My hope is that there will be a current in print rule set that supports that sort of play.
 
Its funny I think most of the people in this and similar threads for the most part agree with each other when it comes to rules style and have just gotten themselves mizzled over word definitions and such.

I think something we can all agree on though is that Heroquest was and still is awesome.

Lots of very very angry grown men in this thread. Some don't want their precious childhood conceptions of D&D messed with, others don't like D&D but love a good bitch fest. Thing is none of you are the target audience. The box set is for the kids new to D&D. A simple game you can play right out of the box is the order of the day. What will make of break this is the execution of what is inside, not the fact that chargen rules aren't.

Honestly. We are getting precious about downloading some extra content? Geez I remember playing D&D with a badly photocopied 1E PHB. The key is igniting interest. The rest takes care of itself.

Besides I bet that there will be a free app for chargen.

Quote from: Marleycat;75211140 bucks? To get something for 20 bucks and download a PDF? Get real and fuck off.

No goofy, not the $40 part... the content part.

Quote from: Marleycat;75211140 bucks? To get something for 20 bucks and download a PDF? Get real and fuck off. The former I can't even sniff the latter I can afford. If I cared.

Key is.... I don't care because I'M A PLAYER. I already have the rules as do anyone I care about. Let the DM sweat the details.

I dislike PDFs despite the lower cost and ownership of a printer.  But that doesn't mean a combination strategy that has online components won't work.  

But the best thing is to lower the barrier to having fun as quickly as possible.  A huge tome, like Pathfinder, takes a long time to master if you have never played before.  A starter set should focus on the low barriers to entry, and it sounds like this really is the focus.

Quote from: Fiasco;752122Lots of very very angry grown men in this thread. Some don't want their precious childhood conceptions of D&D messed with, others don't like D&D but love a good bitch fest. Thing is none of you are the target audience. The box set is for the kids new to D&D. A simple game you can play right out of the box is the order of the day. What will make of break this is the execution of what is inside, not the fact that chargen rules aren't.

Honestly. We are getting precious about downloading some extra content? Geez I remember playing D&D with a badly photocopied 1E PHB. The key is igniting interest. The rest takes care of itself.

Besides I bet that there will be a free app for chargen.

Logic and realism gets in the way of Ben's ranting that's no good don't you understand?

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751926Just to sprinkle a little oil in the fire:

Just rename the box Dragonlance Starter Set, a box without character creation but pregens (Tanis, Raistlin, the whole bunch).
Now rename the Tyranny of Dragons series to Dragons of Despair, Dragons of Hope, ...

Of course the adventures would be playable with the Starter Set alone.

Try to view the criticism from that angle.

Scary thing is, Tyranny might be the remnant of the old proposed Dragonlance reboot.

But if the boxed set is like the 1st Next playtest then what you'll get is a statted and geared out character with no name essentially. Kinda like a HeroQuest or Warhammer Quest character. Add name and go.

Quote from: dar;752088So your saying that a box with chargen is more limited than one without?

Uh... because whatever happens with the 'secret' from wotc your comment doesn't seem quite right.

No, I am saying getting 15% of the PHB free is way more than a line or two saying 4d6 drop 1. Odds are you will get advancement rules in the PDF. Of which any 8 year old with a phone understands better than me or you.

Again in the average family it's the kids that have the cutting edge phones not the parents. I know this as fact because I worked in the cell phone insurance industry for several years.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751940So why again is B/X loved and this is reviled?  What does the old basic boxed set include as accessible to players that this does not?  More monsters maybe?

BX had that little extra bit of chargen. Small as it was. You learned the whole game right there. Neet and simple.

For some it just feels wrong to leave that element out of a game thats supposed to teach you how to play the game.

Which happens to be my gut feeling too. It just feels wrong as a player, a GM, a game designer, and even a really small time publisher.

But.

I was around for the 1st Next playtest and still have said 1st playtest and the new Starter is sounding like just about EXACTLY what you were handed.

5 pregen characters that you put a name on. They could go to level 3. All the class info was only on the character sheet.

The DM section was all of 9 pages. The 34 page monster section covered just the monsters found in the module. Which happened to be the re-named Keep on the Borderlands sans the actual Keep. Hence why it is just called Caves of Chaos I guess.

The 31 page player section was 15 pages on how to do checks and use stats, exploration, combat, damage, healing, effects and then 7 on equipment and 9 on magic with some spells level 0-2. And the stats section took up 3 pages on stats. What the modifiers are and what each stat specifically does. What it is commonly checked for, what saves it effects, and for INT/WIS/CHA that it may effect certain classes spells. CON replaced spells with HP, DEX with Ranged attacks, AC and Initiative. STR with Melee attacks and Carrying.


Ditch some of the player info section or shuffle it to the DM or character sheet, move the monster info into the DM section or the module and you are getting very close to the page count of the Starter.

I am ok with the chargen stuff being off on a website. I might not think it was the best of ideas. But if it works it works.

Quote from: RPGPundit;752054No doubt that's something that will happen, but if you're talking about a group that is all beginners (including the GM) there's no reason they'll expect that to happen right off the bat.  I think that when they're still learning what the hell they're doing because one of their uncles got them the Starter set for their birthday, they will be more than fine with picking one of the pregens.  For right after that, when they start thinking about making different characters, that will be available to them.

I could see one potential minor problem there.
It is setting the stage for a certain mindset of playstyle right out the gate.

"You need these 4 classes." Or "You need these classes and they should be these races."

Very Minor. But potentially vexing later down the line when you have to wean them off that idea.

Now if they give out in the starter multiple sheets of each pregen then that might negate the issue.