Quote from: RPGPundit;751920You guys may want to note what Wolfgang Bauer wrote in the interview he gave to the Escapist: the Tyranny of Dragons adventures can be playable using only the Starter Set.

Just to sprinkle a little oil in the fire:

Just rename the box Dragonlance Starter Set, a box without character creation but pregens (Tanis, Raistlin, the whole bunch).
Now rename the Tyranny of Dragons series to Dragons of Despair, Dragons of Hope, ...

Of course the adventures would be playable with the Starter Set alone.

Try to view the criticism from that angle.

Quote from: estar;751922I been advocating for some time that the way to "fix" tabletop RPGs is to make a better referee. And this including giving tools to help the referee create adventures, campaigns, and settings.

I say tools because guidelines don't cut it. Don't get rid of the advice but you have to back it up with an implemented example or, just like you said, the novice referee will still have no clue.

For example the B/X edition of D&D had a dungeon stocking table, among other things. While starts out with the usual vague guideline approach B/X followed up with a short but practical how-to on how to actually setup a dungeon.

1) Draw a maze with rooms.
2) Use the dungeon stock table generate the general contents of the room
3) Use the other random table to find out specifics.
4) Tweak
5) Run your campaign.

I've mentioned this before here, maybe even in this thread (can't recall), but WoTC should have some sort of online workshop for teaching people how to DM.  Maybe a video series of putting an adventure together and then showing a group playing through it.

Quote from: xech;751917Okay, but why leave what the game needs to have any considerable replay value only online?
Was it a matter of cost? Was it a matter of not having enough time to write character creation rules for newbies? Was it both? What do you think about exactly this question that many have reasonably asked so far?

If they left it out, my guess is it probably had to do with keeping cover cost down. I am still unclear on what will and will not be contained in the set but it sounds like they figured since everyone pretty much has the internet, shifting the character creation to an online tool would be a solid money saver. I can sort of see their point if that is the case, I just feel it is still something you probably ought to include if only for the convenience factor of not needing to go online if you already have the set before you. But it is hardly the end of the world. Starter sets have neverhad much appeal to me. What is going to grow the game is enthusiastic GMs sharing the system with new players. I can do that with a solid PHB.

Quote from: RunningLaser;751929I've mentioned this before here, maybe even in this thread (can't recall), but WoTC should have some sort of online workshop for teaching people how to DM.  Maybe a video series of putting an adventure together and then showing a group playing through it.

Sure, but honestly this stuff need to be in the main rulebook. Rather trying to pack it with kewl stuff, take the time to TEACH the players and referees how to make the kewl stuff on their own. Along with specific tools to support this. Don't be afraid to go for the traditional tropes like the Dungeon Maze because a lot of novice gamers need help with that along with the more exotic or complex setups.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Pundit, and I noticed it myself the past couple of days.  It's awfully odd that we keep having the same argument that a fighter isn't the same as every other fighter regardless of complex char op rules because it's based on how you play it, but in the past couple days, the same people arguing that are complaining that the starter box isn't charoppy enough.

Strange.  It's a Starter Set, so I wouldn't expect anything but the basic classes to be included anyway.  And there are rules accessible to anyone, even those who don't get the set, to create these basic characters.

So why again is B/X loved and this is reviled?  What does the old basic boxed set include as accessible to players that this does not?  More monsters maybe?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751940So why again is B/X loved and this is reviled?  What does the old basic boxed set include as accessible to players that this does not?  More monsters maybe?

Because one was seen through the lenses of 12 year old, and the other through the lenses of 55 year old.

I'm a little surprised that this is so controversial, but I guess people here have some very strong opinions about introducing new players to RPGs and I don't think many minds are going to be changed by the discussion.

Personally, as between a boxed set that contains chargen rules - but no free support afterwards, vs. a set with only pregens that does allow for free support afterwards, including not only chargen rules but maybe some additional levels, races, spells, equipment, etc. there's no doubt in my mind that the latter is a better deal - both objectively and in terms of teaching the game and expanding the fanbase.

Could they have done both? Yes, but probably not for the same price, so it really boils down whether the savings translate to greater sales and exposure.

I suspect that it will, and dramatically so, but time will tell.

Comparing this to B/X seems to me a mistake. B/X was its own game, while the hardback AD&D books were for another game. They're theoretically unrelated to each other, so of course B/X had to be "complete," because it wasn't supposed to lead into anything else.
But the 5e starter set and the 5e PHB/DMG/MM all belong to the same game. The idea, to me, seems: you pick up the starter set, get a feel for how the game is played, and then decide whether you like it enough to go the full monty with the Big Three.

Maybe it's me but I don't see any problem here. I also don't see the big deal about the lack of chargen instructions. I've introduced new players to the game, and the last thing I want to do with a complete newbie right at the outset is explain all the nitty gritty details of rolling up a new character. I'd rather say, "Here are a few characters, You pretend to be one as I describe the situations you're in. Tell me what you want to do, and in the process I'll explain to you what all the crap on your sheet means. ... Having fun? Want to make your own guy? Cool, let's download the instructions and get down to it." Again, I see no problem here.

The people talking about using the starter set to train new players and the first step is talking them through chargen ... I think you are missing a trick. You want this to be accessible to a group with no previous RPG experience.

5 10 year olds get together for the first time with the new starter set they look at the cool pics of the pre gens and then pick one then they get started.

After playing for a while they want to make up their own characters but by that point they have downloaded the complete rules meh....

I think a lot of the consternation comes down to some people looking at the starter set through their eyes as a 16 year-old in say 1984, versus the realities of a 16 year-old picking up a game in 2014.  People hate change, but there's been a lot of it in thirty years.  Computers, Internet access, smartphones, tablets, etc. are ubiquitous now, and a ten year-old would have no difficulty accessing the character generation online.  In fact, for them, it would be odd if there wasn't some on-line support for the game.

Quote from: jibbajibba;751945The people talking about using the starter set to train new players and the first step is talking them through chargen.

Which would be the surest way to turn them completely off to the thing. Who in their right mind (having never played D&D) would want to go through all that shit to play a damn game? They can play Clue instead. Take your pick: Col. Mustard, Prof. Plum, or Miss Peacock. Now figure out whodunnit.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751908Ok, never mind the fact that if you live anywhere but Burkina Faso or the Disputed Zone where internet doesn't exist, you can in fact create characters with this game, and thus have EVERYTHING you need to run any number of campaigns you want to run forever (with 2 MORE levels than the almost relic-like D&D Basic set of old had).  Never mind that. Let's take a look at your statement: are you seriously saying "creating a character is the entire fucking point of role playing games"?

Getting to identify with your character and consider it your own creation exploring worlds of your own imagination is the fucking point of role playing games. That's what I'm saying. And in a starter set, that means featuring it on both sides of the screen, with elements including practical tools and advice that help DMs make up their own starting dungeon/environment to explore, and for the players to create characters of their own.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751908So you mean the Denners were totally right? Its been about charop the whole time?
But by that logic shouldn't the "point" then be about having 20000 feats and point-buy options and advancement-trees so that you can map out precisely how your guy will look at level 20 before you've rolled his first stat?

Nope.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751908Because if not that, I don't get what you're saying here.  The precise argument that many use against how "limited" Old-School D&D character creation is, is what you are now using against the Starter set.  They claim that old-school D&D sucks because you can "only ever make one fighter". There's no way to individualize the character, because we all know that individualizing the character is about what mechanical options you get to pick from or generate, right? Is that really what you're saying?

Nope.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751908Because I think if I have 5 pregen characters, I hand them out to total newbs at random, and I tell them "Ok, this is a Dwarf Fighter, that's a human cleric, etc. But now you have to decide how they act and what they like and what they think and how they make decisions and how they feel about things.." then THAT, dude, is the ENTIRE FUCKING POINT of Roleplaying games.

Nope. The entire fucking point is that if the player says "Oh I'd like to play a human fighter" he can, and doesn't get answered with "There's only a dwarf fighter in the box, here" but instead "OK roll the dice six times, choose your equipment and let's go!"

Again, the point I'm making is not rocket science. Seriously. What is it with people treating role playing games like it's some sort of consumerist item like a series of movies or comics?

Speaking of which, it reminds me of Stan Lee when he was asked whether electronic comics would replace the printed ones. He answered, paraphrasing: "Well, comics are like tits. They are nice to see on the screen and all, but I'd rather hold them in my hands."

Well. Same thing about a role playing game.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751908The set-up Wizards has chosen will let a group of kids do exactly that, from the moment they open the box. AND it will also let those kids then go on to create characters, and theoretically keep playing this game forever, with everything they need just in the box, without having to ever buy another product again if they don't want to.

That, to me, is the TOTAL FUCKING OPPOSITE OF CRIPPLEWARE.

Now THIS specifically I understand. And I see where you're coming from. BUT, and there's a but here, if the starter set basically contains the first adventure of Tyranny of the Dragons in it with some shoddy advice about how to "build stories" and crap in the boxed set besides, then yeah, I totally start to get this vibe out of it:

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751926Just to sprinkle a little oil in the fire:

Just rename the box Dragonlance Starter Set, a box without character creation but pregens (Tanis, Raistlin, the whole bunch).
Now rename the Tyranny of Dragons series to Dragons of Despair, Dragons of Hope, ...

Of course the adventures would be playable with the Starter Set alone.

Try to view the criticism from that angle.

Quote from: RPGPundit;751908Its something we should be praising WoTC to the fucking rafters for. It means they actually got the point this time, and it also must have been a pretty bold and scary move for them, from their point of view: they're betting on actually giving people a game that gives them everything they need for $19.95 (and yes, typing out a URL, which people are suddenly pretending is an immense hurdle because.. what.. we all know 12 year-olds today have no idea how to use the internet and hate to be online??).  Instead of going with the (failed) technique of giving them half-a-game and then demanding they pony up money for the full experience, they're going to give them a full game and then trust that game will be awesome enough the kids will want to pay more for other stuff.  That's really what they always should have been doing, but we should still be impressed because its been so very long since they had really tried doing it this way.   If they only manage to actually promote the starter set in the right ways and to the young-teen demographic, it might even bring a whole new generation into the hobby.

RPGPundit

Now, I actually went to my wife who has been a teacher for close to 15 years, mostly teaching to the exact age demographics we are talking about, and I asked her very straightforwardly: "If you have a boxed set with pregens and stuff, and in the boxed set it tells you 'go to dnd.com to get the full character generation rules', will they be able to do it with no problem at 10 years old?"

Her answer was: "Yes, about half of them will be able to, and the other half with the help of an adult will be able to as well. But that means that on the dnd.com page you'd have a big red button to download the rules that you could find at all times, that wouldn't be confusing for the kids or parents."

So on that score it seems you guys are right: that it's no big deal now for a kid to just do it on his own. It's still an extra step/click/move to get the full breadth of the game that I think shouldn't have been there in the first place, however, and Wizards has such a TERRIBLE track record on web design and applications that I can't help but hold my breath on this one.

Also, if it requires anything like a subscription, DDI, whatever, it's dead in the water. Fuck no.

Quote from: Benoist;751859To be clear, I am NOT angry at the game. I'll still pick up the three core books (the starter box is out the window, because it's obvious crap), judge for myself, play a few games, and so on. Just like I did with 3e (which I loved) and 4e (which I didn't like).

What really annoys me is those posters who keep taking the counter-point because [NEXT]. As in "I'm already sold to Next, I want it to succeed, so every criticism needs to be squashed before it hatches out."

Well news flash, people: I TOO would like Next to succeed. And me saying stuff like "The starter set is actually crippleware that does not sell the actual core value of role playing games" IS criticism that is aimed at raising awareness about what is so fucking brain dead wrong about this shit, and how it could be improved.

Without guys like me, you would NOT have had Next in the first place, because everyone would be singing kumbaya about 4e still. So FUCK YOU guys. My criticism is ACTUAL criticism, as in, "that's a flaw, right there". After, you guys are all welcome to turn it into some spite war of shit about those mythical "grogtards" you hate so much, but I sure as hell hope that other people are looking, people with actual brains, preferably, people who might have a clue as to what's so fucking wrong here.

What laugh it is hilarious to see how angry you are about a product not even aimed at players. You do know it's the 10 year olds that have the 4G phones in a typical family?

The PHB is 320 pages, 15% of that is going to be online for free, so 48 pages.

On the one hand I can see the argument that to put that 48 page booklet into the Starter Set is going to mess up the "Open and Play" experience.  I don't buy it though.  It's money, and it's not that WotC couldn't afford to put the box out with the booklet, it's that doing so would have dropped the profit margin on the box probably .5% below what Hasbro demanded.

So, we get online chargen rules, ok, love it or hate it, it is what it is.

I think people are missing something.

If Tyranny of Dragons is playable with only the Starter Set, then that means that the 15% of the PHB that will be online for free isn't just Chargen it's Advancement.  If the advancement rules are for free, then that means...

Starter Set plus free download is a complete game with no level limits, which means all the PHB, DMG, MM content really is optional.

This Starter Set plus download might be the most complete boxed set in gaming history.  :hmm:  Because of chargen isn't in the box, what is?  DM stuff according to Mearls, so either the DM stuff is totally oriented around Tyranny of Dragons, or it's beginning DM advice, again making it very useful.

Dragonlance II or the Boxed Set to Rule them All...we'll just have to see.

Pundit, ask Mearls why the hell the Amazon PHB preorder keeps jumping around on price.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751951Starter Set plus free download is a complete game with no level limits, which means all the PHB, DMG, MM content really is optional.

The pictures of the back covers of all the core books confirm this really. All of them say 'if you want more material, check out the PHB, DMG, MM' etc.