Quote from: jibbajibba;751860Are you sure you aren't angry? That sounded angry. Especially the grown up sweary words in capitals.

That's the magic of internet. People believe what they want to believe: where there is emphasis, they see anger. Where there is forcefulness, they see unbound, irrational chaos that-must-be-stopped!

The reality is that people just post what they feel when they feel it, with the emphasis they feel like giving, and people should just take it in, however they feel like. Which includes you totally misinterpreting (or attempting to misinterpret) what I was actually saying.

Quote from: Raven;751863Wow. Ok then.

No problem. I'm just tired of this bullshit. Not YOUR bullshit. The bullshit in general.

Quote from: Benoist;751864That's the magic of internet. People believe what they want to believe: where there is emphasis, they see anger. Where there is forcefulness, they see unbound, irrational chaos that-must-be-stopped!

The reality is that people just post what they feel when they feel it, with the emphasis they feel like giving, and people should just take it in, however they feel like. Which includes you totally misinterpreting (or attempting to misinterpret) what I was actually saying.

Not really. I just thought you sounded angry.

As for misinterpretting what you said ... hmmm...

If I can paraphrase

You aren't angry with the game just people that are defending what we know so far about the starter set.
Despite not knowing all the facts you believe a box set without chargen is "crippleware".
Without your personal input Next wouldn't exist because thanks to you everyone realised 4e was shit (I may be misinterrpretting you a little on the last one ).

have I got the gist of it?

Minor point, but it sounds to me like more of an "anti-Grog" then "Yay Next" kind of thing, Ben.  The only person here who may qualify as a 5anatic is Sacrosanct, but we won't know for sure until all the books come out.

Quote from: Skywalker;751767Make the entry point into the RPG complete and replayable for a decent length of time, especially if its just a matter of $10. Over time, the immediate return you get from impulse buys and by rushing people to buy your $150 Core Set sooner is unlikely to beat the overall return of genuinely hooking players by making that first experience as best as it possibly can and encouraging experienced RPGers to gift that entry point to potential customers.

This fits my experience with Pathfinder - I was a reluctant purchaser, but a 12 session campaign running the Pathfinder Beginner Box prepped me to buy into the Core Rules and the whole game. I've spent hundreds of £ on Pathfinder even though the system is clunky and intimidating. I would not have got into it if not for the Beginner Box.

Don't see what the big deal is about the starter box on a website full of players with decades of experience playing.

From what I've played of 5e, I like it. But liking something has no bearing on good criticism. Starter Boxes shooting themselves in the foot is definitely worth criticism.

Currently L5R CCG fills clan starter decks with TWO rulebooks, one basic, and one advanced. The total (glossy, full ink, chock full of ads) page count is well over 100. The basic rulebook runs a mock play, covering the barest rules, in about 30+ pages. The advanced rulebook covers quite a many rules in its 60+ pages, but is incomplete.

Did you know how they fixed that? They released the full rules online, and both basic and advance rulebook tells the player to refer to the website. Except when it came to the new Ivory block release, they had to push it back months and let everyone play with spoiled proxies, so everyone could try the new cards with the vastly new rules.

The release was screwed up, yet finally arrived. But the online rulebook was not up yet -- for months. Because shit happens. And it all could have been prevented by putting the full rules in the box first...

Any lessons here?

Quote from: Opaopajr;751878From what I've played of 5e, I like it. But liking something has no bearing on good criticism. Starter Boxes shooting themselves in the foot is definitely worth criticism.

Currently L5R CCG fills clan starter decks with TWO rulebooks, one basic, and one advanced. The total (glossy, full ink, chock full of ads) page count is well over 100. The basic rulebook runs a mock play, covering the barest rules, in about 30+ pages. The advanced rulebook covers quite a many rules in its 60+ pages, but is incomplete.

Did you know how they fixed that? They released the full rules online, and both basic and advance rulebook tells the player to refer to the website. Except when it came to the new Ivory block release, they had to push it back months and let everyone play with spoiled proxies, so everyone could try the new cards with the vastly new rules.

But the online rulebook was not up yet -- for months. Because shit happens. And it all could have been prevented by putting the full rules in the box first...

Any lessons here?

Make simple rules - under 10 pages using an exception based rule sets where exceptions are printed on the individual cards ?

The full online rules to MtG are pages long. You don't want to include a 400 page paperback rule book with every starter set..... do you?

As I drink the pain flowing from this thread,  I will surely piss out rainbows.

Quote from: jibbajibba;751879Make simple rules - under 10 pages using an exception based rule sets where exceptions are printed on the individual cards ?

The full online rules to MtG are pages long. You don't want to include a 400 page paperback rule book with every starter set..... do you?

CCGs can and have included full rules in their starter boxes for generations now.

Perhaps you are confused and talking about MtG tournament rules, judging, etc. Blocked sets with reminder text and the Stack have very little legacy rules to deal with and are remarkably concise given all these years.

When I was doing demos for new players at conventions (which I did for about a decade), the first thing I did was HAND THEM PREGENS, no way would I  normally subject new players to character generation in any game.  I have no intention of buying anything 5e, though I will likely play it at some point, so I'm not in any way a 5anatic.  I'm sorry, but thinking that a starter set has to have character generation misses the point of it being a STARTER set, especially when they are planning to give away character generation in some manner for those who are beyond "starters" but want to use the rest of the set.

Quote from: jibbajibba;751879Make simple rules - under 10 pages using an exception based rule sets where exceptions are printed on the individual cards ?

Wasn't that the general idea behind this game form?

(CCGs, not RPGs, I mean.)

Quote from: CitrusMagic;751855Have you ever tried to teach a non gamer how to roleplay? Like total newbs to the concept of RPGs. Im not asking to be sarcastic or anything its an honest question.
I think we as gamers tend to forget that Chargen is overwhelming to an honest beginer and also meaningless since their choices mean nothing as they have nothing to base it on. However I've found they are much more receptive to actually playing and then become more interested in chargen once they know the game.
Im fully understanding of peoples views on WoTC due to past record hell I agree most of the time but I do hope that the starter set really is just that, a way to start with 5ed. get to know the rules, try it out and go from there.

I do not agree with this here. One big point of tabletop roleplaying games is that they enable you to choose or build your "genre" character amongst every possible genre archetype (or at least this is what they try to accomplish). This is what is going to hook newbies and newbies need at least to see how this is going to be possible. That they can be the character they want but cant in every other game around. This hooking aspect comes first. Learning the game rules come second.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751782But the holy Mentzer box didn't, right? (I'll admit I could be wrong)

This feels like moving the goalposts here.

But heck, I'm not that invested in this starter anyway, and this whole debate feels like a bit of a sideshow. The final rules are what will save or sink WotC D&D.

I dont think any of the basics had a seperate map.
Moldvay and Mentzer basics do have maps in the booklet of a dungeon.
It is not till Expert that you got maps. And In both again those were in the book or part of the pack in module.

And that is something the new starter doesnt mention?
Where is the usual module that comes with the starter?
No Borderlands? (Caves of Chaos) Or is that the aformentioned 64 page adventure book?

Quote from: David Johansen;751825That the focus group got frustrated with character generation speaks poorly for the rules don't you think?

No. It would just indicate that WOTC had some really stupid focus groups or totally misread what results were.

Really unlikely the rules were left out due to some group being too dim witted to comprehend the chargen.

More likely it is budgetary or just some marketing execs pet idea. "Hey! Lets lock off 50% of the cool tech great and mutations into a CCG that we cant even afford to differentiate the card backs on! Great idea huh?" thus 4e D&D GW gets the above CCG.

Now if they go ahead and print off the missing stuff ANYHOW then the whole scheme is pointless. Why not have packed it in if you were printing it out anyhow? If they dont have physical copies out then ok. 25c saved per book. Its odd, but nothing overly new. Annoying to some.

I am actually getting more interested in the starter as this progresses now.

ADDENDUM: It seems in retrospect that leaving out the chargen may have possibly been part of the design goal to make a starter that is pick up and play very fast?