Quote from: Exploderwizard;751184Perhaps because some of us remember when this was a hobby for the benefit of hobbyists, not merely a product to benefit a company.

It became about profits the minute Gygax copyrighted the game and started selling it out of the trunk of his car. And if you care about the hobby but not the business, why in fuck are you scrutinizing the marketing and publication plans of the biggest company in the industry?

Now we're talking. A free chargen book is exactly the first free hit of heroin that will get me hooked.

Quote from: Mistwell;751243You can have both, but one forces you to buy at a game store, where organized play is taking place - they hand it to you with your purchase.

I don't want to hand over a product that is incomplete and requires to sign into an organized play program to be complete, so assuming that is the rationale, here, that basically ends up with me not buying and not referencing the boxed set for the newbie gamers I know.

Back to square one.

I do believe that organized play can be beneficial to the hobby, but it should be an enhancement to a whole that is already functional and complete without it, for those that want it, not a requirement in order to get a complete functioning product and experience, in my mind.

Quote from: Haffrung;751246It became about profits the minute Gygax copyrighted the game and started selling it out of the trunk of his car. And if you care about the hobby but not the business, why in fuck are you scrutinizing the marketing and publication plans of the biggest company in the industry?

It is quite possible to both enrich the hobby and make a profit. Larger public companies are forced to do more of that latter at the expense of the former by their vey nature and are thus, not the best fit for the hobby.

Making a living selling hobby related materials isn't wrong. Changing a hobby based on individual imagination and creativity into a strictly consumer based product is rather sad.

Quote from: Bobloblah;751234I'll take your word for it, as I don't happen to have my Moldvay book sitting in front of me. Do you think that being an option invalidates the point I'm making?

EDIT: it's potentially moot at this point anyway if the speculation about the Adventurers League booklet is correct.

You still have your chargen options.

EDIT: And yeah. Looks like the AL could be the secret sauce that makes the boxed set and the rest viable without the other books.

Quote from: Benoist;751258I don't want to hand over a product that is incomplete and requires to sign into an organized play program to be complete...

This is not what has been suggested by Mistwell, or anyone else, as far as I can tell.

Quote from: Benoist;751258I don't want to hand over a product that is incomplete and requires to sign into an organized play program to be complete

Cool.  So when I say something even remotely like "sign into an organized play program" you can respond with that.

THEY. HAND. YOU. A. BOOK. WITH. YOUR. PURCHASE.
THE. BOOK. HAS. CHARGEN. RULES. IN. IT.
THAT'S. IT.

Fuck.  Why is this so hard to understand?  Everyone at the game store gets the book, for free, with the purchase of any D&D-related anything, or perhaps for free even without a purchase as long as they walk their ass into a store and pick it up.  You don't "sign in" to anything.  It's just a friggen free book.  No reason to add anything to that explanation.  You buy a starter set, and they had you a free book with chargen rules that ALSO introduces organized play.  You don't have to play in organized play, it's just ALSO mentioned in the free book.  Your fucking cousins and nephews can play the starter set, with chargen rules, without a computer of any kind, just like you want them to.  The fact that the free book came outside the box instead of inside the box IS OF NO RELEVANCE AT ALL to that scenario.  You're literally bitching about an inch of space for the initial location of a book.

Quote from: Bobloblah;751262This is not what has been suggested by Mistwell, or anyone else, as far as I can tell.

That's how I read that sentence:

Quote from: Mistwell;751243You can have both, but one forces you to buy at a game store, where organized play is taking place - they hand it to you with your purchase.  Otherwise you have to download the PDF if you buy at Amazon.  Makes sense to me, and goes along with the fact that the game stores are getting to sell these things before Amazon is allowed to ship them.

So it seems you are objecting to my qualification that you'd be required to sign into the organized play program instead of having to show up at the game store in order to get a copy. I get that - we don't actually know whether signing into the program is required to get a copy. For me the problem remains the same either way: the boxed set is incomplete, and in order to get a complete copy you are required to do something else that doesn't come along with it. So I can't hand over that starter set to other people, nor recommend it as a point of entry to the hobby.

(all this assuming this actually is the silver bullet Mearls and Pundit were talking about, which it might not be)

Quote from: Bobloblah;751262This is not what has been suggested by Mistwell, or anyone else, as far as I can tell.

Yeah I think this is the thickest Benoist has ever been on this board.

It's like he thinks I said "but then you have to have sex with a goat" or something, implied in the sentence "they hand you a book at checkout".

ACTUALLY, it might be the THICKEST I've seen you be in ages right now, Mark. YOU. Not me.

What I'm saying is actually pretty clear. Read.

Quote from: Haffrung;751246It became about profits the minute Gygax copyrighted the game and started selling it out of the trunk of his car. And if you care about the hobby but not the business, why in fuck are you scrutinizing the marketing and publication plans of the biggest company in the industry?

I'm not. They are on my favorite RPG board talking up their new game like it's awesome... ...when maybe, it's not. They seem to be leaving stuff out.

Quote from: Benoist;751265For me the problem remains the same either way: the boxed set is incomplete, and in order to get a complete copy you are required to do something else that doesn't come with along with it.

The "something else" is BUY it.  I am pretty sure that's implied here.  You always had to buy it.  When you buy it, they hand you a free book to go with it.  Are you complaining because your hand is not large enough to grasp two items instead of just the one item?

Your complaint makes no sense Benoist.  You're literally sounding like a crazy person at the moment.  I seriously have no fucking clue what your objection is anymore.

Quote from: Benoist;751268ACTUALLY, it might be the THICKEST I've seen you be in ages right now, Mark. YOU. Not me.

What I'm saying is actually pretty clear. Read.

I've read.  You sound nuts right now.

There is nothing else you have to do to get the rules you're talking about.  Your objection is totally vacuous at this point.

Quote from: Mistwell;751270The "something else" is BUY it.  I am pretty sure that's implied here.  You always had to buy it.  When you buy it, they hand you a free book to go with it.  Are you complaining because your hand is not large enough to grasp two items instead of just the one item?

Your complaint makes no sense Benoist.  You're literally sounding like a crazy person at the moment.  I seriously have no fucking clue what your objection is anymore.

No, the something else is not "buy it". The something else is "buy it at a specific store where D&D organized play is also taking place."

How can you be so thick right now?

If I sound like a crazy person, you sound like an asshole who's not even trying to understand what I'm saying. How about that, uh?

Quote from: Benoist;751272The something else is "buy it at a specific store where D&D organized play is also taking place."

Who said this is the case?