So maybe the "pregens" are mostly-blank slates and you fill them in by playing the first of the provided sample adventures, perhaps?

Quote from: Warthur;751141So maybe the "pregens" are mostly-blank slates and you fill them in by playing the first of the provided sample adventures, perhaps?

I don't know. WOTC could very well be so obtuse as to call a character without a hundred customizable mechanical widgets a "pregen".

Quote from: Exploderwizard;751144I don't know. WOTC could very well be so obtuse as to call a character without a hundred customizable mechanical widgets a "pregen".

Or, as mentioned elsewhere in this three-thread hoedown, it could be that they reckon the 3E/4E fanbase would get crazy-angry if they did call it character generation. ("You said there'd be character gen in this box but there's no rules for optimising the fighter class to make my two-weapon fighter who uses a bohemian earspoon in his left hand and an actual spoon in his right!")

Say something isn't in the box and then provide it and people will be happy it gives them more than they expected. Say something is in the box and don't provide it to the extent people expect and you'll get people grumping about you not delivering on your promises. I can certainly believe that the crowd pining for Holmes/Moldvay/Mentzer is dwarfed in the current audience by the 3E/4E crowd, given how 3E and 4E conversations logged by ENWorld's "hot games" charts typically far outstrip the amount of conversation around old school editions.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751127The video game comparison is apt when you consider the target audience. Most of the video game industry has gone to great lengths to bypass instruction manuals and built tutorial elements into regular gameplay in the interest of starting the fun as quickly as possible.

Consider the highly influential World of Warcraft's "character gen": Pick a faction, pick a race, pick a class, go. No feats , no skills, no talent trees, all the complexity shows up gradually in the course of play.

The video game crowd (WoW in particular) was the target audience of 4e as well. Look how that turned out. I thought the lesson to be learned there was NOT to turn D&D into something it's not in order to appeal to "today's kids."

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751127Most of the video game industry has gone to great lengths to bypass instruction manuals and built tutorial elements into regular gameplay in the interest of starting the fun as quickly as possible.

There are some games that allow you to skip the tutorial completely, either by having an optional Tutorial in the main menu or having a "Skip Tutorial" prompt in-game.

I have no idea how that usability translates into tabletop rpgs but...

Quote from: Warthur;751147Or, as mentioned elsewhere in this three-thread hoedown, it could be that they reckon the 3E/4E fanbase would get crazy-angry if they did call it character generation. ("You said there'd be character gen in this box but there's no rules for optimising the fighter class to make my two-weapon fighter who uses a bohemian earspoon in his left hand and an actual spoon in his right!")

Yes, I think that's distinctly possible.

Quote from: aspiringlich;751150The video game crowd (WoW in particular) was the target audience of 4e as well. Look how that turned out. I thought the lesson to be learned there was NOT to turn D&D into something it's not in order to appeal to "today's kids."

Just because you're building a tabletop RPG and not a video game doesn't mean you have nothing to learn from another medium. cRPGs have certainly gained a great deal from tabletop. The trick (as ever) is to learn the right lessons and apply them properly. So this:

Quote from: Necrozius;751152There are some games that allow you to skip the tutorial completely, either by having an optional Tutorial in the main menu or having a "Skip Tutorial" prompt in-game.

I have no idea how that usability translates into tabletop rpgs but...

...works by having a Starter Set that walks you through early play, doesn't overwhelm you with character generation options, and gives you enough to get going. And it's completely optional with the PHB, DMG, and MM representing the meat of the game.

Here my currently operating theory, Wizard advantage is marketing reach and distribution. So they put out a character creation booklet that is literally everywhere in the gaming world.  You need flyers and brochures, so why not make  abridged character creation rules (i.e. four classes, level 1 to 5) the pitch instead of the usual marketing blurbs.

While the buyer knows that the Pathfinder boxed set is a complete games. But like most games the only way to truly know what it's like is by buying it and opening the box for yourself.

The above avoids that problem. By making the character creations rules widely available, customers can look at them for free. Then decide to buy the starter kit. (And later the PHB, etc). This would also address the widespread trust issue caused by the 4e fallout. "Here are the character creation rules! Decide before you buy in!"

The booklet is not included because it is intended freely available in physical and digital form.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;751053If you get to roll stats, pick a class, buy gear, and advance your character through play then it IS char-gen (as opposed to char-build) as far as I'm concerned.

I can't understand why excluding something so simple and easy would be considered a good design decision.

For WoTC it may be a good decision. You have to ask, good for whom? And for what purpose?

An add that drives folks to the web site, some one at WotC may have considered that a good use of the starter set.

Edit: Note I don't think it's a GOOD idea, but it is an idea.

From a business perspective, why would I want to include a whole game in a boxed set? I make money by selling the game. You make more money from $150 in core books than $40 for a box set (assuming a higher price point for a complete game vs. an intro game). How many potential players will nab the box set and never upgrade?

Where should the focus really be if I want to introduce new players and build a thriving base of customers? On the players? DMs buy more stuff! Every DM I create I have a potential customer interested in ALL the books I create. All the supplements. All the support materials. Without a DM I don't have the 4-6 players sitting around a table playing my game - 4-6 players who will probably buy a Players Handbook! This approach is super smart. Create new DMs, encourage them to find new players, and then I have this self-perpetuating consumer unit. A regular game with players keeps the DM interested in new products. A regular game encourages the players to be interested in new options for the game.

Look at board and card games. Dominion has how many supplements and spin off games now? Arkham horror? Settlers? A good business model involves a focus on repeat business. RPGs are not cars, or homes, or boats or timeshares. The publisher of today needs to figure out a way to keep the customers coming back for more. The publisher of today needs to create a regular stream of quality products that encourages the GM and players to consume on a regular basis. You can't survive on one hit of $150 from your customer base in a year (or worse, $40 or $20...).

Not sure why this business model is so vilified in our hobby. It's so standard I don't get how anyone would expect a business to thrive otherwise.

Quote from: aspiringlich;751150The video game crowd (WoW in particular) was the target audience of 4e as well. Look how that turned out.

Ah, but in this particular department 4e did it wrong. It was heavily front-loaded. Proper Character creation usually took longer than even 3e's did. Far too long. Too many choices.

I say this as someone who liked many of 4e's actual video game ideas.

Quote from: estar;751167Here my currently operating theory, Wizard advantage is marketing reach and distribution. So they put out a character creation booklet that is literally everywhere in the gaming world.  You need flyers and brochures, so why not make  abridged character creation rules (i.e. four classes, level 1 to 5) the pitch instead of the usual marketing blurbs.

While the buyer knows that the Pathfinder boxed set is a complete games. But like most games the only way to truly know what it's like is by buying it and opening the box for yourself.

The above avoids that problem. By making the character creations rules widely available, customers can look at them for free. Then decide to buy the starter kit. (And later the PHB, etc). This would also address the widespread trust issue caused by the 4e fallout. "Here are the character creation rules! Decide before you buy in!"

The booklet is not included because it is intended freely available in physical and digital form.

Assuming the print would be available upon request, that you could get X copies by mail at any time, put them back in the box yourself to offer to people, which means it would not just available as a free PDF or app or whatnot, AND that this booklet would be an evergreen product reprinted over and over, not a one time thing just for launch, that is actually something I could work with.

It would be dumb not to have the booklet in the box AS WELL, in the first place, but I could work around it and hand it over to people after a game and whatnot (assuming the game is good as an intro product of course, which still remains to be seen).

If it requires an internet connection, a download, or worse, a DDI subscription, it's game over, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: estar;751167So they put out a character creation booklet that is literally everywhere in the gaming world.  

The more this stews around the more I think the reason we don't know about the Mystery Product is that it isn't a product. It's a freebie. If they just put a free booklet with very basic chargen, just enough to play in a Starter Set campaign, there will be legions- LEGIONS- of D&D characters looking for campaigns to play in. And those characters will be compatible with the new D&D, but not too incompatible with most other D&D games, either. And, of course it will also be an ad for the PHB.

But think about the impact of a completely free mini-PHB that gets B/X simple characters up and running in minutes. I know this is a HUGE if in the long run, but it's not much more improbable than online-only tools. And they could even be looking at that free PHBish thing to be the bulk of print marketing.

I think WotC is taking a pro-DM stance here, by making ready and eager players with simple characters (not hawt buildz) a dime a dozen.

Edit: or we're all being lubed up for a jolly good Wizarding with a Mearls-shaped Rod of Many Blushes.

Quote from: trechriron;751175Not sure why this business model is so vilified in our hobby. It's so standard I don't get how anyone would expect a business to thrive otherwise.

Perhaps because some of us remember when this was a hobby for the benefit of hobbyists, not merely a product to benefit a company.

Paizo put out a full playable game as a boxed set and they seem to be doing alright.

I think it is pretty odd not to include character creation rules in the starter set. I get that they might have a rationale for not doing so, and I don't think it is the end of the world if the starter is less than stellar, but it is one of those things where, if you are going to do it, you want it to be solid, and putting character creation online feels like I am getting less if I buy the starter. I really don't think this is a huge issue. For me the core books are what matter. I do feel character creation is important for just starting out (not for everyone but for many of us it was a key pleasure of learning to game) and it just makes sense to make that sexy by having it in the starter set itself. If they have a character creation app for newbies that is great. I think that would be a huge help (the character creation CD for 3E really did help me recruit new players). It should just be on top of having it in the Starter in my opinion.

Again hardly the end of the world, hardly a sign that they don't understand what they are doing. I just think it is a questionable call (and probably driven by the need to keep the thing at 20 bucks).

Quote from: Benoist;751086Do you have a guess? If so, I'd like to hear it. (seriously, it's not sarcasm)

A free book, available at all stores which also sell the starter set, which provides the character generation rules and introduces the Adventurer's League.

It's not in the starter set, because it's outside the set and available for free to anyone who wants it, so it can reach an even larger audience than just the starter set customers.