Quote from: CitrusMagic;751028I think people are sort of missing the point of the starter set. To me at least the starter set = basic dnd. There are no character gen options in Basic dnd other then im gonna play this archetype. You dont need online builders or phone apps for the basic set, because there arn't that many options and thats a good thing. What the starter set does is teach people how to play dnd. How to hit things, how to sneak and search, what all of funny words mean.
What it also hopefully does is set up a solid framework upon which to add options. Just like when I bought my 2nd ed MM as a kid and used it with B/X for quite some time before buying an ADnD PHB. And those two systems weren't even 100% compatible. So as long as its the same as difference between Dnd and ADnD its not "crippleware"

I get what you are saying, and I agree.

Really, you want to be a fighter? Here's a fighter. Go.

Fighter is a fighter dudes.

It's like Diablo. You choose the Fighter and then go. Just get into the game and start slaying stuff.

Later Diablo games (II and III) were weighed down with so many options. I don't prefer them.

I just want to start the game, have minimal choices, and start killing stuff.

I give my guy a name, develop some personality, and go.

Isn't that what we've all been on about? It's about the personality and how we represent his fighting style in play, not all the widgets that tell us what we can and cannot do?

I will be refreshed if all I have to do is say: I'm playing a fighter tonight. Let's go.

I don't care about stats, etc. He's strong, he's weak, he's normal. Who cares, I'm gonna roll the dice and kill stuff. And when he dies, I'm gonna jump right back in again. Another fighter. Let's go.

Quote from: Benoist;751074The bottom line here is that there is no goddam reason why you couldn't have character gen apps and online campaign tools and all that, IN ADDITION to an actual character gen process included on the page, black and white, in the starter set, along with the pregens..

Unless there IS a reason, and you just have not thought of it yet.

It's possible in a starter set to take players through chargen without having a full set of chargen rules in the book.

In fact, it makes sense. Start the book with with a 'What are RPGs?' section, go on to 'What are Characters?' complete with 4-6 examples of chargen which then give you your pregens with which to play the material contained in the starter-set.

It takes you through chargen, teaches you the important parts and terminology of the game and hopefully leaves you wanting more when the full game comes out.

Quote from: Mistwell;751083Unless there IS a reason, and you just have not thought of it yet.

Do you have a guess? If so, I'd like to hear it. (seriously, it's not sarcasm)

Quote from: Benoist;751074My problem with this whole thing is that the whole core experience of a role playing game should be distilled in one entry offering, one box, complete, without downloads, without getting a DDI subscription, or getting the iPhone out of the pocket, NONE of those things.

This! There really needs to be one physical, tangible product that, if someone owns, that can play D&D with it, forever.

I have to believe there will be apps and downloads. It'd be stupid to not have these things; that's the present day reality.

I also have to believe there is no requirement for any of the digital offerings or I start to get an aneurysm.

Even saying it's not required is not enough, it has to be actually completely optional such that it's not a terrible inconvenience to forgo the digital offering. You can technically create a 4e character using paper and books but it takes a special kind of savant to voluntarily do such a thing. Hell I can't be bothered to do a full 3e character by hand, buying ranks and reading feat lists kills my interest in gaming awful quick. So 3e is an edge case but 4e? Almost disingenuous to say you don't need the online tools.

Playtest chargen is a snap, and if the SS has half those options (no backgrounds, no feats, 4 classes) you really would be hard pressed to convince someone a digital tool is even with the time loading into RAM, compared to the moment it takes to make your guy.

There's also the semantics angle: they don't want to call the basic generation method in the SS by name because some people would be alienated to find out you can't make a half dragon, half angel samurai wizard with a d12 hit die. Probably it's not just a semantics thing but it is within the realm of possibility that is our gap in knowledge about the specifics of 5e.

Quote from: Benoist;751074...the whole core experience of a role playing game should be distilled in one entry offering, one box, complete, without downloads, without getting a DDI subscription, or getting the iPhone out of the pocket, NONE of those things.

I agree, and I am very, very curious to see if they've achieved this or not. The one product and you're good to go (as a start) is super important, particularly if you want to get it in to more mass-market venues (e.g. toystores), and they are surely going to want to do that.

It's not inconceivable to play D&D without stats, either, especially at a basic level. Cut stats and replace with "apply your proficiency bonus to tasks and saves within your class's bailiwick" and now you really don't need character generation rules, especially with a few equipment kits instead of the usual price list.

Quote from: 1989;751078I get what you are saying, and I agree.

Really, you want to be a fighter? Here's a fighter. Go.

Fighter is a fighter dudes.

It's like Diablo. You choose the Fighter and then go. Just get into the game and start slaying stuff.

Later Diablo games (II and III) were weighed down with so many options. I don't prefer them.

I just want to start the game, have minimal choices, and start killing stuff.

I give my guy a name, develop some personality, and go.

Isn't that what we've all been on about? It's about the personality and how we represent his fighting style in play, not all the widgets that tell us what we can and cannot do?

I will be refreshed if all I have to do is say: I'm playing a fighter tonight. Let's go.

I don't care about stats, etc. He's strong, he's weak, he's normal. Who cares, I'm gonna roll the dice and kill stuff. And when he dies, I'm gonna jump right back in again. Another fighter. Let's go.

My sentiments exactly.

Quote from: elfandghost;751019Currently at $17.99 on Amazon. That's £10.65, and people are moaning. I spent double that on beers yesterday. What do you want for £10/$17, who cares if there isn't charater gen included.

The Player's handbook is at $40.48 on Amazon. That's £24, and people are moaning. £24, that's lunch and a few ales, pizza and a movie.

Is America that broke that $40 dollars is considered a lot of cash? Really? The last lot of Academic books I bought came to $337, for four books. If people are so aggrieved about the costs they really need to reconnect with reality.

I don't know about Americans, but there does seem to be an element of the RPG community that expects to buy and play a game forever for about $30 US. It's worth noting this attitude is not shared by boardgame hobbyists.

But unrealistic expectations aside, most if this is nerds being outraged on behalf of others. Won't somebody think of the children!? Never mind the audience of 12-18 year olds WotC is probably aiming at don't seem to have any problem buying loads of Warhammer Miniatures and Magic booster packs.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751060Well, this isn't B/X or even B, it's a starter set for the three books coming down the line.  Learn to play for a few months, then start expanding.

This is not an evergreen box and it was never meant to be, it's for getting new people to play.

There's some piece we don't know about yet, so just gonna kick it and wait.

Pretty much. It's not Moldvay or Mentzner, and it's not trying to be. The core books are the game. The starter set is the cheap introduction to that game. Not tough to understand.

Quote from: matthulhu;751097It's not inconceivable to play D&D without stats, either, especially at a basic level. Cut stats and replace with "apply your proficiency bonus to tasks and saves within your class's bailiwick" and now you really don't need character generation rules, especially with a few equipment kits instead of the usual price list.

I've been thinking of something like Laminated cards & dry erase. IE: the pre-gen says something like "at level 2 choose "Slayer" and do +2 damage or choose "deadly" and get a +2 to hit.  Something like ... the first 5 levels built in to the pre-gen sheet. Kind of like how some of the old boardgames used to use Leveling.

Quote from: 1989;751078I don't care about stats, etc. He's strong, he's weak, he's normal. Who cares, I'm gonna roll the dice and kill stuff. And when he dies, I'm gonna jump right back in again. Another fighter. Let's go.

Exactly. It's bizarre seeing grognards who hold the character isn't what's on the character sheet as a kind of holy tenet complaining that a $20 introductory product aimed at total newbies doesn't have enough chargen.

Heck, I learned with the Holmes Basic set, and for the first few months just used the pre-gens out of the back of B1. Krago of the Mountains. Glendor the Fourth. Weberran of the North. Great stuff.

Look at all the angry little edition warriors running out and screeching that the mean old grognards are being mean old grognards.

Screech, angry little edition warriors, screech.

Or, maybe, you could y'know put down the stupid for a minute and recognize that this is a thing some of us would actually like to see succeed and realize we think that not putting the fucking character generation in the set so that someone who takes it home has a complete game and they don't have to fuck around with a maybe-available? website? and/or get a PDF to print out?

Nah, that'd require thinking on your part.  So screech away, keep pointing out how we don't love it enough and it's our fault.

Despite every hope we have that this will be good.

Quote from: 1989;751078It's like Diablo. You choose the Fighter and then go. Just get into the game and start slaying stuff.

The video game comparison is apt when you consider the target audience. Most of the video game industry has gone to great lengths to bypass instruction manuals and built tutorial elements into regular gameplay in the interest of starting the fun as quickly as possible.

Consider the highly influential World of Warcraft's "character gen": Pick a faction, pick a race, pick a class, go. No feats , no skills, no talent trees, all the complexity shows up gradually in the course of play.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;751118Or, maybe, you could y'know put down the stupid for a minute and recognize that this is a thing some of us would actually like to see succeed and realize we think that not putting the fucking character generation in the set so that someone who takes it home has a complete game and they don't have to fuck around with a maybe-available? website? and/or get a PDF to print out?

Oh hell yes.

This reminds me of a situation from a couple years ago. We had some severe thunderstorms/ hurricane like weather going on. The power went out so we broke out the battery powered radio to listen for updates on the storm.

The radio station basically just said there was a storm and to go to their Facebook page for details. :confused: The whole area without power and the station literally saying go online for details? It was a slow clap moment.

Online stuff is nice to have but the meat & potatoes should come with the package.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;751127The video game comparison is apt when you consider the target audience. Most of the video game industry has gone to great lengths to bypass instruction manuals and built tutorial elements into regular gameplay in the interest of starting the fun as quickly as possible.

Consider the highly influential World of Warcraft's "character gen": Pick a faction, pick a race, pick a class, go. No feats , no skills, no talent trees, all the complexity shows up gradually in the course of play.

Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for this kind of approach. Something like what bryce0lynch just mentioned would be along these lines...and really, it's not that different from Mentzer, for example.