Since the ability modifiers and xp tables are all the same class to class, they could very easily have the core four races on one page (human, dwarf, elf, halfling), and two classes per page.  They're only going to level 5, so all they need are the basic class features (proficiencies and hit points), and a very short list of a few abilities gained from level 1 to 5.  A few pages for spells, and that's it.  If the only classes they had in the starter set were fighter, mage, cleric, and rogue, it would not take up much of a page count at all.  If it does, someone screwed up.  Hell, I could do it myself in about an hour or so.

Quote from: Skywalker;750728In the playtest document, the sections needed for character creation are 94 pages long, and there is another 58 pages of spells.

Though you can cut this down by reducing options and levels, you still need quite a bit more than "roll 4d6 drop 1 and arrange to taste in the box" for 5e (and any edition of D&D).

Couldn't they halve that at least? Give only four core races maybe 6 classes. Given it's only for levels 1-5. My bet is some kind of online thing it's the only thing that makes any sense.

Quote from: Marleycat;750731Couldn't they halve that at least? Give only four core races maybe 6 classes. Given it's only for levels 1-5. My bet is some kind of online thing it's the only thing that makes any sense.

Breaking it down for 4 races and classes for 5 levels:

Character Creation - 5 pages
Races - 8 pages (rather than 12)
Classes - ~16 pages (rather 50)
Multiclassing - 0 pages (rather than 3)
Background and Skills - 7 pages
Feats - 4 pages
Equipment - ~5 pages (rather than 13)
Spells - ~10 pages (rather than 58)

That gets it to ~55 pages and that's not including the 29 pages of actual rules. Also, the playtest document may be more dense in layout too.

I would guess you could do it at a push if you did a 64 page rulebook (though 96 pages would be more possible). Coincidentally that's also the length of the Pathfinder Beginner Box Player's Book.

Quote from: Skywalker;750737Breaking it down for 4 races and classes for 5 levels:

Character Creation - 5 pages
Races - 8 pages (rather than 12)
Classes - ~16 pages (rather 50)
Multiclassing - 0 pages (rather than 3)
Background and Skills - 7 pages
Feats - 4 pages
Equipment - ~5 pages (rather than 13)
Spells - ~10 pages (rather than 58)

That gets it to ~55 pages and that's not including the 29 pages of actual rules. Also, the playtest document may be more dense in layout too.

I would guess you could do it at a push if you did a 64 page rulebook (though 96 pages would be more possible). Coincidentally that's also the length of the Pathfinder Beginner Box Player's Book.

Very workable to me. You shouldn't have to go online just to play the game. The point is to hook people with the starter set (at below cost) but it needs to be complete in the box and then if interested they get the PHB at $50 a pop or whatever.

Here is something that shows just how little space they would need to devote.  I mean, who really cares about all the fluff, right?  And this is a starter set, so you can trim back all the addtional customization options in the full game and go more back to a true basic set.


Ability generation:Method 1: Roll 4d6, drop lowest, and assign in any order
Method 2: Assign as desired: 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

Races:
Dwarf: Con+1, Str+1. Medium size. Speed: 25.  Darkvision 60ft.  Advantage on ST vs. poison.  Prof with battleaxe, handaxe, throwing hammer, Warhammer.  Toughness (+1 hp per level)

Elf: Dex+1, Int+1.  Medium size.  Speed: 30ft.  Low light vision.  Prof in long sword, short sword, shortbow, and longbow.  Advantage on WIS checks and ST vs charm.  Immune to sleep.  Trance.  Mask of the Wild (attempt to hide even in light cover)

Halfling: Dex+1, Cha+1.  Small size.  Speed: 25ft.  Lucky (reroll natural 1).  Adv on ST vs fear.  Move through space of large size creature or bigger.  Stealthy (attempt to hide when obscured by a larger creature)

Human: All ability scores +1.  Speed: 30ft.


Classes:
Fighter: HP: d10 per level.  Prof: all armor, shields, and weapons.  Saving Throws: STR and CON.  
Level 1: Style: choose one: archery (+1 attack roll with ranged), defense (+1 AC), great weapon (apply ability mod damage on a miss), protection (impart disadvantage on an attack against your or an ally once per round), or two weapon (both weapons get ability mod damage)
Level 1: second wind (temp gain 1d6+1 per level hp per short rest)
Level 2: action surge (1 extra action per short rest)
Level 3: superior crit (19-20 is a crit)
Level 4: ability score improvement)
Level 5: extra attack

Quote from: Sacrosanct;750739Here is something that shows just how little space they would need to devote.  I mean, who really cares about all the fluff, right?

I think taking time to explain rules and make them interesting with fluff is something of value in a Beginner Set. The extreme stripped down version you have posted would not be a good idea.

However, I think they could have put character creation rules in the Beginner Set, though it would have to have been in a 64 page Players Book, which would have tipped the price point to $30. I think WotC sees the $20 price tag as being paramount to full character creation. I think they are wrong.

Quote from: Skywalker;750742I think taking time to explain rules and make them interesting with fluff is something of value in a Beginner Set. The extreme stripped down version you have posted would not be a good idea.

However, I think they could have put character creation rules in the Beginner Set, though it would have to have been in a 64 page Players Book, which would have tipped the price point to $30. I think WotC sees the $20 price tag as being paramount to full character creation. I think they are wrong.

Well, of course you still have the rules for how to play, and what all that stuff means.  Just that for the actual list of races and classes, you can fit it pretty tightly.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;750747Well, of course you still have the rules for how to play, and what all that stuff means.  Just that for the actual list of races and classes, you can fit it pretty tightly.

I would personally think that you want at least 2 pages for each class and preferably 1/2 to 1 page for each race. The idea would allow for a beginning RPGer to be draw in by the fluff and art, and then transitioned in the text to the mechanics.

Keep in mind:

A) The starter set is aimed at new players, not veterans.
B) An oft-stated goal of Next is to get new players up and playing in 15 minutes.

The starter set doesn't require full character generation. It's meant for a DM to read before running a group of total newbs through a few sessions. Want to play long-term? Get the PHB. I can't fathom why long-time players give a shit about introductory boxed sets one way or another. You're not the audience.

Quote from: Haffrung;750753I can't fathom why long-time players give a shit about introductory boxed sets one way or another. You're not the audience.

Mostly because of the Red Box, I'd bet.

I still don't see how B/X crammed so much info into two small books but this beginner set can't even go over 5 levels in the same amount of pages, much less provide character creation rules.

The full art on the PHB really lost a lot to cropping.

The DMG not as much, but was still a cooler looking shot before they cut it down.

Quote from: Haffrung;750753Keep in mind:

A) The starter set is aimed at new players, not veterans.
B) An oft-stated goal of Next is to get new players up and playing in 15 minutes.

The starter set doesn't require full character generation. It's meant for a DM to read before running a group of total newbs through a few sessions. Want to play long-term? Get the PHB. I can't fathom why long-time players give a shit about introductory boxed sets one way or another. You're not the audience.

Why not cater to both to maximize profits?

It seemed to work fine back in the 80s and 90s, but it doesn't any longer?

Quote from: Haffrung;750753I can't fathom why long-time players give a shit about introductory boxed sets one way or another. You're not the audience.

Well I used the Pathfinder Beginner Box for a campaign because I didn't want to deal with the complexity of full Pathfinder. Experienced GMs aren't necessarily fans of complex systems. Expense is also an issue, especially at these prices - I might drop say £50 on something speculatively, but not £100/$150.

Quote from: Brad;750759Mostly because of the Red Box, I'd bet.

I still don't see how B/X crammed so much info into two small books but this beginner set can't even go over 5 levels in the same amount of pages, much less provide character creation rules.

Reaching back to the that totemic box of magic from their youth? A desperate longing to recapture that feeling, or have today's youth experience it themselves?

Touching. But why should WotC, or today's new gamers, give a shit? Maybe the detractors are right, and WotC has resigned themselves to selling nostalgia in a box.

Quote from: Haffrung;750753Keep in mind:

A) The starter set is aimed at new players, not veterans.
B) An oft-stated goal of Next is to get new players up and playing in 15 minutes.

The starter set doesn't require full character generation. It's meant for a DM to read before running a group of total newbs through a few sessions. Want to play long-term? Get the PHB. I can't fathom why long-time players give a shit about introductory boxed sets one way or another. You're not the audience.

Yep.  The starter set is completely irrelevant to me.