Been thinking about this for a while and it kind of came home when I was rereading Anansi Boys the other day.

You can look on it like ages of myth.

In the old days strength and ferocity were paramount, all the stories were Tiger stories. Then along come Anansi, the trickster, and cunning and skill take over and become dominant and then all the stories are Anansi stories.
Well we are going through a new phase. The age of endurance. These days, at least since Coolhand Luke got battered by Dragline, the hero isn't the strongest guy or the most skillful guy and certain not the smartest guy. Its the guy that just keeps on going.

Well there is Cool Hand Luke obviously.
The Man with no name gets battered in a Fistfull of dollars, but comes back,
Rocky isn't nearly as good a boxer as Creed but he keeps getting up.

Closer to genre.
Corwin's power in 9 Princes is his endurance
Mal's power in Serenity is his endurance


So when did the ability to force your heart and nerve and sinew, To serve your turn long after they are gone,  And so hold on when there is nothing in you, Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!' become the governing Primary Heroic stat?
Do we think that this is stay the way it is or does the resurgeance of smarts and wits in Tony Stark's rise to the top of the SuperHero Pantheon  start to undo it. I think not because I get the distinct impression in the US in particular that smart and witty are frowned upon and hardwork and perserverance are much more cherished.

In movies at least the endurance hero is popular because you can put them through alot of punishment and they keep on going. Simmilar to some endurance slashers. It allows the director to play out the story and often is used near either the beginning or middle arc in the story.

Thinking heroes are fewer because as far as Hollywood is concerned. The general populace is incapable of understanding them.

And even with the armour, Stark takes severe beatings fairly often.

Quote from: jibbajibba;739790So when did the ability to force your heart and nerve and sinew, To serve your turn long after they are gone,  And so hold on when there is nothing in you, Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!' become the governing Primary Heroic stat?

Around two millenia ago, there appeared this obscure Hebrew cult that later became known as "Christianity", and they had some mighty strange views:

First, they decided that all the traditional heroic activities* present in the stories of Gilgamesh, Herakles, Odysseus etc. are now badwrongfun for weird morality-related reasons. Something about "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you", and how traditional heroic activities* do not really fit that.

Second, it follows that the traditional heroic attributes - strength, fleet-footedness, martial prowess, mighty fury, etc. - are now useless at best and harmful at worst, since they facilitate badwrongfun behaviour.

Third, for some reason these "Christians" felt they were being unfairly persecuted by the Earthly Powers That Be, which led them to cultivate perseverance as a desirable, if not outright necessary, quality to have.

Fourth, once they and their followers gained some cultural traction, they started to instill their own hero figures - saints, martyrs and idealised versions of the contemporary Christian man - with the same perseverance, making it THEIR Numero Uno heroic quality.

Then two millenia pass, and now the followers of these "Christian" Hebrews are running most of the world. Oy vey!



* List of traditional heroic activities - as evidenced by the stories of classical mythological heroes - includes beating and killing people for tenuously acceptable reasons, rape, thievery, robbery, looting, cheating, lying, hubris etc..

Until the '60s, Heroes were regularly KO'd with a single poker tap to the back of the skull. Maybe they'd then be tied up and beaten up, but there wasn't a lot of emphasis on how toughly they withstood it - and I'd put the Man With No Name's capture in that earlier category.
So I'd say the Tough Hero is definitely post '60s, and especially '80s+. Probably became the dominant trope with Die Hard, but it's notable that Arnie's 1981 Conan is more notable for his toughness and willpower than for his feats of strength - the biggest feat of strength in the movie is Thorgrim accidentally bringing down the Pillar of Set on Rexxor!

The primacy of toughness, determination and will is very apparent in anime and JRPGs and has been so for quite a while (perhaps since their inception).

Part of the heroic journey is to get beat down, because then rising up and winning actually means something.  Like in sports, the more a team comes back from being down, the greater they are celebrated.

Quote from: Premier;739807Around two millenia ago, there appeared this obscure Hebrew cult that later became known as "Christianity", and they had some mighty strange views:

First, they decided that all the traditional heroic activities* present in the stories of Gilgamesh, Herakles, Odysseus etc. are now badwrongfun for weird morality-related reasons. Something about "doing unto others as you would have them do unto you", and how traditional heroic activities* do not really fit that.

Second, it follows that the traditional heroic attributes - strength, fleet-footedness, martial prowess, mighty fury, etc. - are now useless at best and harmful at worst, since they facilitate badwrongfun behaviour.

Third, for some reason these "Christians" felt they were being unfairly persecuted by the Earthly Powers That Be, which led them to cultivate perseverance as a desirable, if not outright necessary, quality to have.

Fourth, once they and their followers gained some cultural traction, they started to instill their own hero figures - saints, martyrs and idealised versions of the contemporary Christian man - with the same perseverance, making it THEIR Numero Uno heroic quality.

Then two millenia pass, and now the followers of these "Christian" Hebrews are running most of the world. Oy vey!



* List of traditional heroic activities - as evidenced by the stories of classical mythological heroes - includes beating and killing people for tenuously acceptable reasons, rape, thievery, robbery, looting, cheating, lying, hubris etc..

Yeah I was thinking of old Jebus when I was writing it and the transition from the age of Aries under Moses to the Age of Pisces under Jebus to the age of Aquarius under well Dimension 5 I guess
So totally moving from pre-Hebrew might is right to Moses the "magician" and lawgiver who defeats the Egyptians through skill (and divine intervention of course) then onto Jesus getting himself scourged as a endurance line. However, when you look at folk heroes they are still tricksy rather than tough, from Robin Hood and William Tell to Merlin and Hansel and Gretel.

It might just be a movie thing as it makes for a good story for Batman to show real pluck by recovering from a broken back and to keep on trying to get out of that pit. But I was just curious was all.

This is an interesting observation and I think you're onto something, here.

//Panjumanju

Maybe Christiananity did have something to do with, maybe not.  Admiration of endurance and perserverance were also prevelant in the examples Premier used.  For example, Hercules had to have great endurance to capture the Ceryneian Hind.  He ran after the thing for a year.  And of course there is the story of Prometheus, and all the things he had to endure.

Quote from: jibbajibba;739790So when did the ability to force your heart and nerve and sinew, To serve your turn long after they are gone,  And so hold on when there is nothing in you, Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’ become the governing Primary Heroic stat?

To jump the line in all the pop-culture references, Frodo's defining attribute — indeed, the defining attribute of all the Hobbits — was the ability to endure. His half of the books, after the breaking of the Fellowship, is basically one long trek through pain and deprivation. He endured the temptations of the Ring. He endured.

In a larger sense, the primary virtue of peasants, slaves, and serfs has always been the ability to persevere. The humble and small aren't the smartest, strongest, fastest, or most brutal. But they endure. And in enduring, often gain victory over those more capable, though it take generations.

Farming is an exercise in endurance, gradually shaping the land in small ways to make it more fruitful and pleasant. It takes several lifetimes, which takes endurance.

Christianity, being a religion that exalts the virtues of the humble and small, exalts perseverance. I'm not claiming Christians started this, or that it's unique to them, but it is the defining characteristic of their exemplars.

There may be other popular culture figures who showed endurance, but it can be dated no later than The Lord of the Rings.

Heroic vs. Superheroic.

The superheroic character wins because he's stronger/etc.  He easily defeats all enemies.

The heroic character wins *despite* his weaknesses.

Also, endurance is something we can all aspire to, as well as being a generally useful trait, while just being the strongest is not really attainable, and is very narrow in its applicability.  When it comes to problems, willpower is the universal solvent.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;739899There may be other popular culture figures who showed endurance, but it can be dated no later than The Lord of the Rings.

This struck me as a little funny from a person with a reference to Ulysses in your sig.  

Quote from: Old One Eye;739913This struck me as a little funny from a person with a reference to Ulysses in your sig.  

Good point.

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;739924Good point.

well the original Ulysses was best known for his cunning. He also had great strength being the only one able to string his mighty bow for example.

Course I always equate Odysseus with that fella and Ulysses with a rambling Irish bloke wandering round Dublin.

Quote from: jibbajibba;739947well the original Ulysses was best known for his cunning. He also had great strength being the only one able to string his mighty bow for example.

Course I always equate Odysseus with that fella and Ulysses with a rambling Irish bloke wandering round Dublin.

I never could make heads or tales of what that guy said.