I prep according to the dictates of the party. I usually base it on things the party was endeavoring to do the previous week with ideas on tossing curveballs that are interesting into those stated goals that could prove to be lucrative (or not).

I'm notorious for littering my game with red-herrings that could lead to other entirely different sub-plots that even I myself have no idea about. I also introduce new NPC organically (i.e. spur of the moment as needed - with backgrounds and motivations that induce adventure tangents) that tends to shake things up. I love turning old tropes upside-down and inside out.

so I do a *lot* of Improv, though most players would never know it. I don't even consider it improv as much as I just consider it "gaming". To me, the game is like playing cards - where I can randomly pull a card from the deck and toss it on the table, which can shift the entire direction of things on the time.

I *LOVE* to test the moral convictions of my players - and I reward players for sticking to their guns as well as doing things for the right reasons despite their convictions as long as they're being honest with their characters about it.

I never "not prep" - but there is never a game-session where I'm not improving a lot. I'd almost say it's 25% prep 75% improv.

I've been doing this for too long - and its one of the enjoyments I get from the game primarily as a GM.

In terms of setting up a campaign: TONS of prep. I want to know the world, its big conflicts, why those conflicts exist, its mysteries, why those mysteries exist, it's secrets, etc. before we start playing. My last Pathfinder campaign which ran weekly for three-years - had over 32-pages of recurring NPC's in what I call short-hand stat-blocs. When I wrote out their stat-blocs for the main NPC's I gave myself carpal tunnel. My WoD games are similar - I have tons of secrets that I purposely work up for the players to find and indulge them with if they can figure it all out.

I see a lot of references to differfent length games; and this is one of those places where a differentiation is in order.

Doing a new, or short-term or one shot on the fly is a completely different animal than when keeping track of session 72 of a serious, in depth game with some 100+ NPCs used and multiple plotlines running through it.  Any middling GM can toss together the first, and make it look good.  

However, most GMs aren't good enough to keep a group interested more than 10-15 sessions.  And this is one of those places that a lot of the prep is just connecting all the dots and putting everthing in place and thinking out loud what some logical outcomes are of actions that the PCs and the game world might take.

Quote from: LordVreeg;736167Doing a new, or short-term or one shot on the fly is a completely different animal than when keeping track of session 72 of a serious, in depth game with some 100+ NPCs used and multiple plotlines running through it....

As a mostly non-prepper I still keep notes of what I did last session and I certainly re-use NPCs and the like that were met (and survived).  I don't think of that as prep because it's done in-game as I go.

Quote from: Brander;736162Bad GMs = Bad GMs, everything after that is kind of irrelevant.  That said, I'm sure I have similar issues in other areas (railroady GMs being one)  

That RPGsite speak.
If I said it's not very hard to know when something was prepped compared to something "improv" people here would get all prune faced.
If it's a quick spur of the moment one shot, I have no issues with it.
If it's a "hey I wanna run for 4-9 sessions of X" and midway through the first session it's plain to see it's all "improv" I have issues.
If it's a long campaign and "improv" starts early(session 3 or so) I leave.

Quote from: Brander;736162I'd stop gaming if I had to prep that much, between my job, family, and kids, it wouldn't even be a choice, I simply wouldn't have the time.  Luckily, forgetting my prepped stuff for a couple convention games (pre-kids) convinced me it was a lot of work for very little gain.

I don't know, between my job, family, and kids(4) I still have plenty of time for prepping that much.  
ymmv

Quote from: tenbones;736166so I do a *lot* of Improv, though most players would never know it. I don't even consider it improv as much as I just consider it "gaming".

I think most don't really care.

Quote from: tenbones;736166In terms of setting up a campaign: TONS of prep. I want to know the world, its big conflicts, why those conflicts exist, its mysteries, why those mysteries exist, it's secrets, etc. before we start playing. My last Pathfinder campaign which ran weekly for three-years - had over 32-pages of recurring NPC's in what I call short-hand stat-blocs. When I wrote out their stat-blocs for the main NPC's I gave myself carpal tunnel. My WoD games are similar - I have tons of secrets that I purposely work up for the players to find and indulge them with if they can figure it all out.

Same here.
If you don't know the plo...er woops that p word is bad, sorry 'schemes'  of the various factions/persons/etc. and all of those various concepts and ideas  I don't feel comfortable letting the players wonder around.
I feel it's cheating the players.

Quote from: LordVreeg;736167I see a lot of references to different length games; and this is one of those places where a differentiation is in order.

Doing a new, or short-term or one shot on the fly is a completely different animal than when keeping track of session 72 of a serious, in depth game with some 100+ NPCs used and multiple plotlines running through it.  Any middling GM can toss together the first, and make it look good.  

However, most GMs aren't good enough to keep a group interested more than 10-15 sessions.  And this is one of those places that a lot of the prep is just connecting all the dots and putting everthing in place and thinking out loud what some logical outcomes are of actions that the PCs and the game world might take.

True.  Hopefully that is why people have been distinguishing between the lengths.

I think there is some confusion here with people who think Improv means that NPCs have no background or that there are no world in motion stuff going on in the background or that there is no foreshadowing or secret stuff.

An improvised game can have different factions, NPCs with their own agendas, foreshadowing (whereby a thing you see sight of in week 4 turns out to be part of the Big Bad's major plot in week 12).

Take my current game. Set in the galaxy the PCs can go anywhere so its totally sandbox. Typically they check a list of perps round a certain bounty value. I give then between 3 and 6 options they pick one and travel off to the appropraite planet. Then they chase that guy down. Then they check other local bounties and try to complete a few more before heading somewhere else.

Now when I name those perps and I just pick the names from the air I also ascribe them, motivation, character, plot arcs. This guy is a ruthless killer but sloppy his men work for him out of fear, this one is involved in politics and has links to a web or corruption and organised crime, this one is a front for a revolutionary group that has genuinely valid issues with the corrupt corporation that owns this mining world.... etc
All of that happens when you write down the name , the crime and the bounty on the List. But the List just looks like

Denver Khan
Terrorist Activities, Murder, Arson
Bounty: 500K Cr
Location: Dansun System - Dansun 5 aka Donnersworld

etc

Now if they pick this guy then we do some condensed role play as they travel and do some research. For the research I give them a pottted history of the sector it's racial make up, politics, then I focus on the planet they are heading towards and I explain the way the Tritech Corproation effectively owns the place etc etc .
They might want more data, they might want less. I answer every and all questions. I give them names, probably the only stuff I write down in my book, I give them GDP numbers, population density records, etc etc whatever they want. In the background whist my mouth spouts off details of armoured landtrains that deliver minerals cross country between isolated mining colonies back to the 2 main space ports on separate continents, my brian is constructing the back story, the major NPCs the fact that Khan and his movement , The Ark, have a set of pretty justifiable concerns, there is indentured servitude, there are huge limits on personal freedoms, the corporation's elite do use the planet like a huge playground and enforce their will through arrogant armed thugs.
When they arrive on planet, say 30 minutes into the session I have a pretty workable scenario they have made a bunch of plans about how they will track and capture this guy, what extra equipment they might need etc .... and we start getting to the nitty gritty of it.

Now that is an improvised game. The party might capture Khan they might kill him they might get killed by him. This story arc might run for 2 sessions, 5 sessions, it could become a huge ongoing thread where the PCs change from bounty hunters to freedom figthers even going after Tritech's intergalatic concerns or tring to infiltrate the company and bring it down.

In short there is nothing you do when you improv a session that you don't do when you plan it in advance but there is little you don't do either short of writing it all down last week. Yes you need to be familiar enough with the rules to know what stats a bunch of bandits, goblins, professional Assassins will have off the top of your head, and it helps to be able to generate unique NPCs on the fly. Aside from that its the same stuff everyone does.
There are some tricks that make improv really hard to spot. One of these is Foreshadowing as I said. When you foreshadow you mention a small detail, a newpaper headline , what is showing on a TV, maybe an overheard coversation in a tavern whatever, and you bring that back to make it a major plot point down the line. Done well this makes it look like there is a vast layer of complex prep underlying the world. Think about the first 6 seasons of LOST or read Nine Princes in Amber.
Retconning is another tool. I avoid it most often because it smacks of Illusionism but sometimes when the PCs lay out a ridiculously laberynthine plot to explain what's goign on its hard to resist taking chunks of it and retconning it into play. It makes them feel great that they worked out the Big Bad's plan and it can create game gaming opportunities.

Now having said all that sometimes Improv leads you down a cul de sac can you have to cut your losses close out that thread and it is more suited for episodic games than it is for great quests. However for sandbox play improv is ideal.

Quote from: LordVreeg;736167I see a lot of references to differfent length games; and this is one of those places where a differentiation is in order.

Doing a new, or short-term or one shot on the fly is a completely different animal than when keeping track of session 72 of a serious, in depth game with some 100+ NPCs used and multiple plotlines running through it.  Any middling GM can toss together the first, and make it look good.  

However, most GMs aren't good enough to keep a group interested more than 10-15 sessions.  And this is one of those places that a lot of the prep is just connecting all the dots and putting everthing in place and thinking out loud what some logical outcomes are of actions that the PCs and the game world might take.

Are you saying a game is only good if it lasts longer than 15 sessions? That seems like a weird value judgement to make about all games, players, and GMs.

Quote from: Sommerjon;736183(in reference to 80+ hours of prep before a campaign)
I don't know, between my job, family, and kids(4) I still have plenty of time for prepping that much.  
ymmv

This is blowing my mind, I have to know more!

In preparation for a campaign, how many hours a week would you spend preparing to get to the 80 hours?
Is the prep just writing or do you create your own props? Maps? Handouts? Light shows? Costumes? I'm getting images of D&D on ice level production values for that kind of time investment.
How much of your prepped material generally goes unused?

Quote from: Sommerjon;736183...

If it's a "hey I wanna run for 4-9 sessions of X" and midway through the first session it's plain to see it's all "improv" I have issues.
If it's a long campaign and "improv" starts early(session 3 or so) I leave.

Like I said, you are confusing a style of GMing with bad GMing.  Doesn't matter if it's RPGsite speak or not, it's still true.  Sorry you haven't had a good improv GM to game with (you might have already had oneor more and not realized it, good improv looks and feels scripted).  However, if your hangups are causing you not to have fun, it's probably best you do leave a game, no point in torturing yourself if you don't like it.

Quote from: Sommerjon;736183I don't know, between my job, family, and kids(4) I still have plenty of time for prepping that much.  
ymmv

Good for you.  Your job, family, and kids might require less time than mine.  Everyone is different.  You might also play less often than I do, which would give you plenty of time for "...a huge amount of prep(80+ hours) before the campaign starts and then continue with 1-3 hours of prep per game session.."

Quote from: Adric;736238This is blowing my mind, I have to know more!

In preparation for a campaign, how many hours a week would you spend preparing to get to the 80 hours?
Is the prep just writing or do you create your own props? Maps? Handouts? Light shows? Costumes? I'm getting images of D&D on ice level production values for that kind of time investment.
How much of your prepped material generally goes unused?

On average 10 a week for a couple months.  It never ends up that way I usually get done before that, but I always use a 2 month lead time for a new campaign.

If I am gaming at my house, I use FX recordings to help set the stage.  Wind, rain, thunderstorms, dripping water, crowds, spell effects, animal sounds, etc.
Handouts are prettily done up,
Maps made.
Game tiles laid out
Miniatures bought and painted(if needed)
I place every settlement on the main map and detail* them out.
I create 95% of the creatures I use in D&D.  Too many players metagame creatures, so I don't use standard creatures anymore.
And finally timelines.

Hell back in the day I had a tactile box.  A box player would put their hand into to feel various textures(think Dune Movie).  I had quite a collection of real and synthetic skins and other textiles.

* meaning everything I can think of over the course of those two months.  Plots, Schemes, Secret Societies, Plans, etc. etc.

Quote from: jibbajibba;736222...
In short there is nothing you do when you improv a session that you don't do when you plan it in advance but there is little you don't do either short of writing it all down last week. Yes you need to be familiar enough with the rules to know what stats a bunch of bandits, goblins, professional Assassins will have off the top of your head, and it helps to be able to generate unique NPCs on the fly. Aside from that its the same stuff everyone does.

QFT

Improv is just one of the ways to achieve a fun game.  So to with prepping.  Either can work better or worse for different GMs and/or players.

Quote from: jibbajibba;736222Retconning is another tool. I avoid it most often because it smacks of Illusionism but sometimes when the PCs lay out a ridiculously laberynthine plot to explain what's goign on its hard to resist taking chunks of it and retconning it into play. It makes them feel great that they worked out the Big Bad's plan and it can create game gaming opportunities.

I don't avoid it, I consider it one of the best tools in the toolbox.  No matter how smart or witty I think I am, when it comes to ideas, the players usually outnumber me and are thinking in parallel with one another.  It's hard for one mind, no matter how smart or witty, to compete with that.  If one or more of their ideas is better, I steal it.

Quote from: Brander;736240Like I said, you are confusing a style of GMing with bad GMing.  Doesn't matter if it's RPGsite speak or not, it's still true.  Sorry you haven't had a good improv GM to game with (you might have already had one or more and not realized it, good improv looks and feels scripted).  However, if your hangups are causing you not to have fun, it's probably best you do leave a game, no point in torturing yourself if you don't like it.

No it's like I said it's not very hard to spot 'improv'.

Quote from: Brander;736240Good for you.  Your job, family, and kids might require less time than mine.  Everyone is different.  You might also play less often than I do, which would give you plenty of time for "...a huge amount of prep(80+ hours) before the campaign starts and then continue with 1-3 hours of prep per game session.."

Whatever.

No, I have never found it hard to grab a half hour to hour a day prepping for a campaign/game.

Quote from: Sommerjon;736243No it's like I said it's not very hard to spot 'improv'.

And yet you said it was "Bad Dms". To quote:

Quote from: Sommerjon;736116"I had too many Bad Dms touching me with "improv" sessions that were shit to ever think it is a viable option."

So because Bad DMs couldn't do it well, no DM can...  Sorry, that doesn't compute.

Quote from: Sommerjon;736243No, I have never found it hard to grab a half hour to hour a day prepping for a campaign/game.

And I no longer find it necessary, which has helped as the demands of my family and job have increased, while still allowing me to run games periodically.

Quote from: Sommerjon;736241On average 10 a week for a couple months.  It never ends up that way I usually get done before that, but I always use a 2 month lead time for a new campaign.

If I am gaming at my house, I use FX recordings to help set the stage.  Wind, rain, thunderstorms, dripping water, crowds, spell effects, animal sounds, etc.
Handouts are prettily done up,
Maps made.
Game tiles laid out
Miniatures bought and painted(if needed)
I place every settlement on the main map and detail* them out.
I create 95% of the creatures I use in D&D.  Too many players metagame creatures, so I don't use standard creatures anymore.
And finally timelines.

Hell back in the day I had a tactile box.  A box player would put their hand into to feel various textures(think Dune Movie).  I had quite a collection of real and synthetic skins and other textiles.

* meaning everything I can think of over the course of those two months.  Plots, Schemes, Secret Societies, Plans, etc. etc.

Ithink you have a specific play style that requires a lot of prep.
Whether you developed the style because you like prep or you like the games it produces and I assume enjoy the prep enough to make it worth while.

In the past I have done stuff like preparing a complex dungeon on tiles cut out and stuck to black card so you can it all out as you go blah blah but then the Players just don't go to the at dungeon and its a waste of 2 hours of my life

My Mum used to do insane prep. So take a city have an A5 index card for each building which NPCs, story hooks all that a bit liek a MMO or something. Vast ammount of effort.
But at the end of the day you can spoof that with imagination and experience.

I am more concerned that you can tell each of my NPCs apart by their vocal nuance (not accent per se more the style and timbre of speech) and that all the NPC plans are well concieved and executed as well as that NPC can maange with out exceeding their horizon (the limit of their knowldge, skill experience etc) than I am that the dungeon is laid out in an interesting manner or the maps look pretty.
I like a nice prop but I tend to use them more for the Murdery Mystery Business than a RPG session because in an RPG session me describing the book, daggger, goblet is probably more useful than me bringing a simulacrum.

So I get your love of prep and I bet it produces some great games but I don't think that means improv games are weaker, have less depth or less immersion.

Quote from: RPGPundit;735793By "improv" I mean running a session with zero planning beforehand, going totally off the cuff?

Do you do this most of the time? Half the time? Regularly? Very rarely? Or never at all?

I improve about 90% for my sandboxes.  I have no outline or any sequence of events that need to be done in any order.  I just have to watch out that my scope (bubble space for the players) doesn't contain too much in it.  It resizes according to the scope of what the players are currently doing.  I have other things going on besides just the PCs in the sandbox.  Sometimes, two scopes can meet.  Then some thought has to be put in for what just happened if a disaster is about to go down.

Someone had mentioned to me about a train of boxcars, each boxcar having its own sandbox.  Mine is more sandboxes inside of sandboxes.

I'm curious how a DM can improv a sandbox campaign that has dungeons and such. Generate the maps randomly as you go?

Quote from: Haffrung;736284I'm curious how a DM can improv a sandbox campaign that has dungeons and such. Generate the maps randomly as you go?

Yep. I've done that with AD&D. Or just described/drawn it on the fly.

Dungeons and such though I personally prefer to at least draw out before hand. Even if its just some boxes (rooms) connected by lines (passages).