Quote from: Sommerjon;730966Or spend 5 minutes and learn the symbols?

Some players just dont parse symbols well. This is a known factor from other games. 5 min, 5 hours 5 days, may not matter. Its just something you have to accept when designing a game that happens to use icons to some degree. For some it just wont click.

Quote from: Omega;731072Some players just dont parse symbols well. This is a known factor from other games. 5 min, 5 hours 5 days, may not matter. Its just something you have to accept when designing a game that happens to use icons to some degree. For some it just wont click.

True. But the same is true with numbers and addition. It's one of the reasons that WW proved popular with certain audiences, with it's use of dots and successes. There is no right way when it comes to what clicks.

Quote from: Skywalker;730992To give an example, a pretty typical attack in starship combat in WEG looks like this:

Attack:

Defence:

Damage:

Soak:

Where are you getting this "Soak" crap? There is no "Soak" in any combat rules of WEG Star Wars.

Quote from: Skywalker;731052Yes, there is higher initial hurdle of first encountering the dice. But once that hurdle is overcome,

People would still rather be spending their free time playing the game of Star Wars than trying to decipher the FFG dice for Star Wars. Gimmick dice and deciphering them pulls people out of their immersion.

Quote from: jeff37923;731077Where are you getting this "Soak" crap? There is no "Soak" in any combat rules of WEG Star Wars.

You roll Strength to resist damage.

Quote from: jeff37923;731078People would still rather be spending their free time playing the game of Star Wars than trying to decipher the FFG dice for Star Wars. Gimmick dice and deciphering them pulls people out of their immersion.

That's exactly it - it is an unnecessary hurdle that adds nothing to immersion. If the unique mechanics add to immersion, then it would be worth considering. If it adds no value to the player, then it probably only adds some marketing value to the company that produces the game - and that's definitely a turn off.

Quote from: jeff37923;731078People would still rather be spending their free time playing the game of Star Wars than trying to decipher the FFG dice for Star Wars. Gimmick dice and deciphering them pulls people out of their immersion.

From experience, it takes less than 5 minutes to learn the dice for most people. More so than a standard dice system admittedly, but not at all significant in the grand scheme of all the other things that you need to learn in a new RPG. And as said, it pays off after that hurdle is overcome, which is the primary reason anyone spends their free time learning parts of a new RPG.

Quote from: Lynn;731081That's exactly it - it is an unnecessary hurdle that adds nothing to immersion. If the unique mechanics add to immersion, then it would be worth considering. If it adds no value to the player, then it probably only adds some marketing value to the company that produces the game - and that's definitely a turn off.

I struggle to see how numbers are more immersive than symbols.

Even though the initial hurdle is a little bigger, if makes the game runs smoother and faster thereafter for some people, it is going to seem like a decent trade off for those people. And more immersive by how you seem to be using the term.

Skywalker, you're talking with people who haven't played the game but are content to sneer about the dice.  I'm not a fan of the system, but I can see how the symbols are more intuitive than numbers--but to the grogsquad, it doesn't matter because they have Important Opinions.

Quote from: Skywalker;731083I struggle to see how numbers are more immersive than symbols.

Even though the initial hurdle is a little bigger, if makes the game runs smoother and faster thereafter for some people, it is going to seem like a decent trade off for those people. And more immersive by how you seem to be using the term.

No, symbols do not increase immersion; it isn't that normal d6 are particularly immersive.

Non RPG players are already very familiar with normal six sided dice, and that's one benefit for using them.

As you've said, there is an initial hurdle ADDED by using these unfamiliar dice. It creates an additional barrier to the player to have to learn it - there's no apparent reward or improvement to the game by doing so.

My understanding of product development is that you only introduce a new paradigm when there's an obvious benefit; even when you tout numbers, efficiency, etc, it goes against the norm. The psychological barrier is just as great as the actual learning to get whatever the actual benefit there is. Throw a goofy new paradigm into someone's fun, and people do not even want to try.

That's one reason why so many supposedly more efficient computer input devices have failed at gaining more than a tiny niche. It's also why adoption of the ugly "ribbon" introduced to Microsoft Office took so long.

Quote from: Skywalker;731080You roll Strength to resist damage.

It isn't called "soak". Your misuse of terms confused me.

Quote from: Archangel Fascist;731084Skywalker, you're talking with people who haven't played the game but are content to sneer about the dice.  I'm not a fan of the system, but I can see how the symbols are more intuitive than numbers--but to the grogsquad, it doesn't matter because they have Important Opinions.

Incorrect.

I've played the game and the result of that is why I sneer at the dice.

If you are in the Chattanooga area next weekend and feel like taking the Pepsi Challenge on this one, you are more than welcome to game at my table at ConNooga. I'll be hosting a game of WEG d6 Star Wars that uses the EotE adventure Shadows Of A Black Sun so that people can compare the gameplay.

Quote from: Skywalker;731082From experience, it takes less than 5 minutes to learn the dice for most people. More so than a standard dice system admittedly, but not at all significant in the grand scheme of all the other things that you need to learn in a new RPG.

Comparatively, it takes less than 5 minutes to learn everything needed to start playing WEG d6 Star Wars.

Quote from: jeff37923;731091Comparatively, it takes less than 5 minutes to learn everything needed to start playing WEG d6 Star Wars.

I agree in relation to the use of dice to start playing. But WEG and EotE have considerably greater learning time for using the system as a whole. So much so that the 5 minutes will become immaterial for many people over time.

Quote from: jeff37923;731088It isn't called "soak". Your misuse of terms confused me.

I think Mini6 or one of the other WEG d6 clones uses that term.