Quote from: hagbard;729010I don't really see a reason for proprietary dice. Maybe it adds an element of fun to the game I'm not seeing. The only game I play that uses them is x-wing, which I really enjoy because it's quick. I think if it utilized regular dice, it would be just as fun.

I do own WHFRP 3e and Descent 2e and I never play either, primarily because the mechanics and settings aren't very appealing to me.

Sometimes it's just fun?

I liked playing DC Heroes game with their 'proprietary dice'.  Much more atmospheric 'mood' looking for superman symbols than pips on a d6.

Quote from: Sommerjon;729020Sometimes it's just fun?

I liked playing DC Heroes game with their 'proprietary dice'.  Much more atmospheric 'mood' looking for superman symbols than pips on a d6.

I remember playing heroquest back in the day, and that utilized special dice for combat. I think it helped when playing the game with people who would not otherwise play a game like that. Maybe it's good for quasi- or non-gamers in establishing a mood.

Quote from: hagbard;729033I remember playing heroquest back in the day, and that utilized special dice for combat. I think it helped when playing the game with people who would not otherwise play a game like that. Maybe it's good for quasi- or non-gamers in establishing a mood.

HeroScape uses them too. Not very surprising as its the same designer. Mutant Chronicles, Monsterpocalypse and Mice & Mystics use special dice as well.

Special dice allow you to stack the odds in ways you want. Or turn a dice into a different type.

The FUDGE dice are essentially a d3.  ++/--/00
HQ/HS dice are SSS/DD/0
M&M dice are multi-function, a d2, d3, and a C/S/RR/DD.
Monpoc: 000/11/22, 00/111/2, 0/1111/2

So people are mad that because an RPG company came up with a means to have proprietary dice, using a system that seems to work reasonably well (it's working very well for me), to make (gasp!) money - is a reason to not play the pretty good RPG game? Whatever.

that sounds odd to me. I certainly don't mind dropping money for my entertainment - $14 for dice I'm going to get years worth of gaming-fun out of?

Sounds fine to me. $50 per book? The quality standards of the books are probably the best I've ever seen. No more than I pay for any of my other books of this size. (And yes I prefer books to PDF - partly to support my hobby, partly because I just like books).

As I've said before - I was hugely skeptical of the dice and system. My skepticism has been proven sufficiently to my standard to be unfounded - and my skepticism bar is by default pretty high (fwiw).

MY big criticism - is how they're spreading the content around in various adventure books, modules, class-books - instead of having Big Equipment Book, Big Bounty Hunter Book, Big Ships book... they sprinkle it all over the place. It's a minor gripe. But it's a pain to keep track of everything that way.

And btw - there are free app-die rollers and conversions out there to "normal" dice?

FFG is mostly a board game company. Their handling of RPGs has been spotty at times from what I've been told.

I think for some it has something to do with FFGs usual glitze for glitze's sake antics. As said previously, its a running gag by now,

For others its the icons. Really, some players just dont grock to icons. These though are mostly fairly simple icons at least.

Some just have this "what was the point?" reaction. Some will look at it and think why werent these normal dice and a table? Others may queston the functionality, etc. Personal tastes factor in.

Quote from: Opaopajr;728893Really? Really. You don't see from my words that I am talking about resolution functions versus mechanics? You know, pass/fail rolls, degree of success, crits/botches/intervention, contested rolls, cooperative rolls, cumulative rolls, etc. Did you read what I wrote and conflated mechanics for function?

Yep, read it all. No idea what your point is. You misewell have been describing the various colours one can get polyhedral dice in. Not that it really matters.

Then you do not understand the difference between a stochastic function to make a decision versus the mechanical process going about doing so?

Flipping a coin and rolling a die to cross a 50% pass/fail value serve the same function, and the mechanics involved are equivalent, just the gradient is different. Using the sum of 3d6 to cross another 50% pass/fail again serves the same function, while the mechanics is not equivalent (though related in to the dice example through similar mechanical device, the added step of addition adds another different mechanical process). Drawing a red card from a standard deck of cards after a riffle shuffle is again another cross of a 50% pass/fail function, while the mechanics are quite different, in the device, gradient, prep, selection, and reading. The function has been the same throughout, but the mechanical examples have been increasingly complex.

Now, I have games which use similar functions you enjoy in EotE. They would even go through a mechanical multi-axis determination for functions. (Like fore example, Suzerain or Heaven and Hell Guardians of Order card system, where the card value is one axis, the suit provides a different axis, game situation affected by suit as a crit system, and ace & face cards having intervention values. Overall extremely similar to EotE, yet not proprietary.) But some mechanistic methods become too removed from the core purpose of function determination, and get lost in the love of process, as noted in my paragraph above. In a word, they become convoluted, and I find convolution to hamper my fun.

EotE is a prime example for me of form over function that convolutes my play and detracts from my fun, as I have repeatedly mentioned.

I think they're perfectly acceptable for board games (and definitely fun). I remember a Dune game I got as a kid with 8-siders. My family played the hell out of that thing and as I was the only one who had any experience with D&D, they thought the dice were "funny". Boardgames are almost always sort of self-contained, so I consider the dice to simply be another component of the game itself. They also serve a useful function for some roleplaying games. The Ghost Die for WEG's Ghostbusters game is a great example of this. FUDGE dice, same thing. However, neither of these is REQUIRED. I can make a Ghost Die out of a regular d6 if I lose it (or the image rubs off, which it has). I can roll 4dF on a table if I want. etc.

However, if you're just using weird dice to have extra shit to sell people, that's annoying. Does the FFG Star Wars game provide charts in case I want to use regular dice? If not, then annoying. If the charts are in the book, I don't see an issue with it.

Quote from: Brad;729654However, if you're just using weird dice to have extra shit to sell people, that's annoying. Does the FFG Star Wars game provide charts in case I want to use regular dice? If not, then annoying. If the charts are in the book, I don't see an issue with it.

There is a conversion chart in the book but it would be ridiculous to even try to use, because you would have to convert each individual die in a dice pool and then add the results together.

That being said there are plenty of good digital tools for the dice, including a fairly cheap android/ios App for it.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;729663There is a conversion chart in the book but it would be ridiculous to even try to use, because you would have to convert each individual die in a dice pool and then add the results together.

That being said there are plenty of good digital tools for the dice, including a fairly cheap android/ios App for it.

Beat me to it. There's a chart for it now in the full release core, as my GM friend happily showed it to me after his proud purchase. IIRC, there was not for the Beta as my GM had to fashion his own tables (now there's an exercise in frustration!). Even with the conversion he made, it was just easier to pass around the singular set of dice.

I'm sure the apps make things wonderful, but I try to avoid having electronic gizmos and widgets on around the table. Too often saw the Gameboy or Candy Crush, Fruit Ninja app drag the game to a screeching halt. I'm sure there are some people who can stop themselves, but I just prefer not to even go there if I can help it.

And given that extended boolean expressions can be a lot of fun in rpgs, it was so disappointing to see their proprietary mechanical direction; there's nothing left of EotE for me to cannibalize into my other games, as I already have easy access to Star Wars setting info.

Edit: if you want to see a repeat of this FFG behavior, go check out Mansions of Madness: Elder Signs: Omens. It's basically quest-based Yahtzee using proprietary dice symbols. There's an app version of the game, too.

I would also not use the chart in the book. But there is also the sticker sheets, which I would use if buying new proprietary dice was an issue.

TBH I have been impressed by FFG in providing alternatives to buying their proprietary dice packs. You have charts, stickers, beginner boxes, and apps.

Quote from: Opaopajr;729611Then you do not understand the difference between a stochastic function to make a decision versus the mechanical process going about doing so?

Flipping a coin and rolling a die to cross a 50% pass/fail value serve the same function, and the mechanics involved are equivalent, just the gradient is different. Using the sum of 3d6 to cross another 50% pass/fail again serves the same function, while the mechanics is not equivalent (though related in to the dice example through similar mechanical device, the added step of addition adds another different mechanical process). Drawing a red card from a standard deck of cards after a riffle shuffle is again another cross of a 50% pass/fail function, while the mechanics are quite different, in the device, gradient, prep, selection, and reading. The function has been the same throughout, but the mechanical examples have been increasingly complex.

Now, I have games which use similar functions you enjoy in EotE. They would even go through a mechanical multi-axis determination for functions. (Like fore example, Suzerain or Heaven and Hell Guardians of Order card system, where the card value is one axis, the suit provides a different axis, game situation affected by suit as a crit system, and ace & face cards having intervention values. Overall extremely similar to EotE, yet not proprietary.) But some mechanistic methods become too removed from the core purpose of function determination, and get lost in the love of process, as noted in my paragraph above. In a word, they become convoluted, and I find convolution to hamper my fun.

EotE is a prime example for me of form over function that convolutes my play and detracts from my fun, as I have repeatedly mentioned.

Care to back that assertion up in some way? For example, can you provide an example of a game that is able to provide the same multi-axis determination of function that is less convoluted in resolution?

It's in the post, dude. Read it again, third paragraph. i.e. Heaven and Hell Guardians of Order system requires you to shuffle and draw a card. It reads card value, suit, and special high cards as all separate axes.

And I have a game open for IN SJG in this very forum (PbP forum) which runs the d666 system, which is really just 2d6 roll under with a separate axis DoS on the third die. The positive and negative switches are built into the intervention rolls of 111 and 666. You're welcome to join.

So basically, you're offended that FFG is making money by using this mechanic (which as others have said here, and I myself as an extreme skeptic have found very useful and worthwhile - anecdotally) as opposed to other systems that essentially do the same thing with "normal" contrivances?

Edit: not trying to be snarky either.

Aren't cards just a "gimmick" too?