Quote from: robiswrong;727126I think where people disagree is that when you play Fate you're spending most of your time thinking "as a player".  This is simply not true for me.

Quote from: robiswrong;727126I certainly don't deny that for some people some of the Fate mechanics can be very harmful to immersion, but at the same time, I know many people that don't have any problems at all with immersion when playing Fate.  Now, how or why that is is a great question, as it's likely some set of expectations, varying areas of familiarity, priorities, biases, and how the rules of the game are actually being applied.

Quote from: robiswrong;727126I'm certainly not going to argue that for you, Fate Core has the effect of making it so that 'for much of the game you are thinking as a player rather than as a character.'  But do recognize that there are people for whom that is not true.

Sure, none of this stuff is binary, it is all on the spectrum. My experience is contrary to yours. Most of the gamers I know in Eastern OH and Western PA find the that meta-game mechanics breaks their immersion and/or feels like a mild form of cheating. But that is only most there is a large minority who just love Fate and similar games.

Quote from: robiswrong;727126I find many things in more traditional RPGs as immersion-breaking if not more so than Fate - and when I look at overall time "in character", I find that in Fate that percentage is at least as high as most traditional games - though how and *why* I think 'as a player' is certainly different.

My general principle is that any RPG has the possibility of breaking immersion for a given players. Perhaps it is how it abstracts the game's reality. Perhaps the player feels lost in trying to learn the mechanics. And so on.

If a player has an issue, what I try is to get the player focus on the playing as if he there as his character. To ignore the elements he is having trouble is and just describe or say what he wants to do. This is particularly important when I run a system with detailed mechanics like GURPS or Harnmaster. I find that metagame mechanics of Fate interferes with this.

For the last few games of Fate what I been doing is telling the players to forget about the fate point economy. If they roleplay their character and the situation fits one of their aspects and there is a negative consequence they will get the fate points. Since aspects are things they generally want to do or experience as their character this has been working out.

It still rough around the edges compared to how I handle D&D, GURPS, Harnmaster, etc  but it seems to work and doesn't feel as metagamey as everybody trying to play Whimsy Cards with the Fate point economy.

Quote from: robiswrong;727126There was also some small kerfluffle when Evil Hate made their dice and branded them "Fate Dice", though they had talked with Grey Ghost about that decision before they announced it.

If you put your material out under an open content license consequence you have to accept that a derived product will eclipse yours. Somebody might make a better version of Blackmarsh then what I put out and if I had a problem with that I wouldn't be putting out Blackmarsh in the first place.

However it is best to credit and work with those your work is based on. With all other things being equal is just works out better for all concerned.

Quote from: estar;727285If a player has an issue, what I try is to get the player focus on the playing as if he there as his character. To ignore the elements he is having trouble is and just describe or say what he wants to do.

That's how I run Fate.  Hell, that's what the explicit advice is to do.  It's even called "The Golden Rule".  Personally, when players say "I " I always ask them "okay, but what are you *doing?*"

Quote from: estar;727285I find that metagame mechanics of Fate interferes with this.

I generally gloss over the heaviness of the metagame mechanics.  Preferably, if I can avoid the words "Invoke" or "Compel", so much the better - for Compels, I'd rather just wave a Fate Point in the direction of the player while I say "wouldn't it make sense that..."

At any rate, the lightness of how I handle those mechanics, combined with the fact that I tie them into "what's happening" make them feel less meta than, say, Savage Worlds bennies which aren't tied into "what's happening" in any way, they exist purely on the mechanical level.

Quote from: estar;727285For the last few games of Fate what I been doing is telling the players to forget about the fate point economy.

I generally don't use the words "Fate Point economy".  I'll explain how invokes and compels work, but that's about it.

Quote from: estar;727285It still rough around the edges compared to how I handle D&D, GURPS, Harnmaster, etc  but it seems to work and doesn't feel as metagamey as everybody trying to play Whimsy Cards with the Fate point economy.

I can definitely see how the Fate Point mechanics could lead to people more used to traditional games over-playing them, since they're the new shiny and all that.  Heck, last game I ran the one guy that had read the system kept trying to "invoke aspects" and shove Fate Points at me without any context.  I was like, "um, dude, just describe what you're doing and we'll go from there."

But what you're describing fits how I play Fate pretty closely.  I don't even consider it an adaptation.  The "Fate Point economy" is very much a background thing compared to "what the heck are you actually doing?", which is what gets the majority of table time, by far.

I'd consider a game where compels were happening *constantly* to be very strange, indeed.  And I could definitely see where such a game would leave a poor taste in someone's mouth and seem bizarrely meta.

I admit, I was having a somewhat bad day. But there are some breaks in the logic here.

Quote from: estar;726385Levels, xp, +2 longswords, and saving throws can be tied back to specific attributes of a character. It is possible to imagine a person being able to fight and defeat four veteran fighters, hence 4th levels. Sheet Metal workers start off as Apprentices, then when they demonstrated the skills become a Journeymen and finally progress to Foreman. Each require the workers to learn and demonstrate a series of skills.

To me, at least, this is a really big stretch regarding levels. They have almost no direct correlation to the character, and aren't something that the character thinks about. But I'm not going to belabor that, it's a moot point and kind of like debating the number of angels that can fit on the head of a pin.

QuoteA magical longsword that increase the fighting ability of a warrior is a common fantasy trope. And finally the ability to resist or avoid something bad happening is abstracted into a single roll with the idea that a more experienced character has a higher chance of avoiding "bad things".

Fate Points are, pretty much, the same thing. While they might be "meta" from the perspective of influencing something external to the character - that's not all they are used for. They represent the character's experience, importance to, and ability to influence the events around them. Fate Points are used in many games to power abilities such as magic and super powers.

QuoteAll the mechanics above are abstractions. Fate Points do not tie back to an attribute of the character. It is not an abstraction of a in-game concept. Rather it is a mechanic to regulate the plot or story of a RPG campaign.

To regulate the character's plot or story though. See the distinction I'm making? And if Fate Points are used to power magic or super powers or anything similar (many stunts require the expenditure of a Fate Point if they are sufficiently power, and sacrificing refresh to get a stunt is effectively permanently paying a Fate Point) then they do tie back to the character's abilities.

QuoteIt is the difference between a story game mechanic of creating a setting and Amber RPGs ability for character to create worlds. Both generate the same result, the creation of an imagined setting. However the story game mechanics is being employed by the PLAYER, while the Amber mechanics is being employed by the CHARACTER being played by the player.

I'll give you that distinction, I just don't think it's important. Mainly, because at the end of the day the player is running the show regardless of the justification as to why the player makes the play decisions that they do. and that really was the root of why I posted the way I did - I have found that cries of "That's meta!" to be in the name of divisiveness as opposed to a simple observation of rules structure.

QuoteI refereed and played Fate a half-dozen times and have observed how fate points are used. It is a meta-game mechanic, like GURPS Luck, or Whimsy Cards. Doesn't mean it good or bad, it means that when used it is by the players thinking as a player.

Like I pointed out, Fate Points at the very least sit between an abstraction of a character ability and something like Luck - purely from the fact that Fate Points are used to power abilities, and can be used directly in conjunction with the character's aspects.

QuoteWhat difference does make if it a meta-game mechanic? Why calling it a meta-game mechanic makes me a hater of Fate? First off I am kickstarter backer of both Evil Hats projects (dice and book). I have borrowed liberally from Fate for my own Fudge Games. I have no problem with playing Fate, I would run it if asked however I prefer my own Fudge based alternative.

Mainly, my frustration comes from those who simply parrot things that they've heard. In your case, it wasn't exactly directed solely at you and it was likely misplaced.

QuoteFor the last few games of Fate what I been doing is telling the players to forget about the fate point economy. If they roleplay their character and the situation fits one of their aspects and there is a negative consequence they will get the fate points. Since aspects are things they generally want to do or experience as their character this has been working out.

This is, honestly, how I run Fate and how many people I know run Fate. The focus of the game for me is not the flow of Fate points - it's the characters and the story (in that order). People who look for excuses to use their Fate Points, or go trying to shove compels into every situation, are obviously thinking more "meta" - and ironically they typically tend to be the types that try to game the system as much as possible. I've never gotten on well with those types, regardless of the game.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490They have almost no direct correlation to the character, and aren't something that the character thinks about.

You are right in that characters don't think in terms of level. But then they don't think either whether their strength is at a 16 or 18. Or their gun skill is at +2 or +4.

Levels define abstractly how experienced a character is. The capability of the D&D character rises in discrete chunks as they level. Fate Core does the same thing but they call it milestone and distinguish between a minor milestone and a minor milestone and don't keep track of how many you earned.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490Fate Points are, pretty much, the same thing. While they might be "meta" from the perspective of influencing something external to the character - that's not all they are used for. They represent the character's experience, importance to, and ability to influence the events around them. Fate Points are used in many games to power abilities such as magic and super powers.

I don't see how Fate Point represent experience. They can and do go down to zero until a refresh occurs or they are earned during play. They are designed to influence the STORY of what going on which is about as metagame as it gets.

And having them power stunts and extras brings the sames consequences that D&D 4e experiences with  dailies and encounter powers for martial abilities. It works from a game standpoint and fun to play but makes no sense from the point of view of the character. Finally getting the Fate Points back is independent of the concrete actions of the character.

Fate isn't unworkable or "bad" because of it reliance on metagame mechanics. It has consequences however, one consequences it directly rewards sub-optimal decisions by the player when roleplaying his character. If he has a drunken lout aspect, roleplays it, and complications arise; the player not only gets the reward of having experienced an interesting situation but also a direct mechanical benefit of earning a fate point.

On the other hand if you run out of fate points in the midst of an adventure it can be jarring not to be able to use certain abilities.

The Fate point economy has a bunch of consequences that for one player really enhances the game and for another it impacts the game negatively. In short its use is not free and not applicable to all gaming groups in all situations.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490I have found that cries of "That's meta!" to be in the name of divisiveness as opposed to a simple observation of rules structure.

And it is hence why I am taking the time explain myself. It divisiveness is a result of some groups games considering metagaming as a form of cheating. For groups having fun with games with metagame mechanics they get annoyed at effectively being called cheaters.

I believe this is the heart of the conflict because when it comes to things like the Fate Points mechanics WHEN there is a complaint often it resolves around "It feels like cheating.". Let me be clear about the context because it not a rabid hate. It more like "Yeah that was fun, Rob but I rather we play X as it feels too  much like cheating being able to all that stuff with Fate points."

The sentiment is similar to what gamers tell me about Microlite, Savage World,  Fudge, and other RPGs with lite mechanics. Yeah Rob it was fun but really like to go back to X there more stuff to make up my character to get, etc, etc.

My feeling is that gamers as a whole like something in the middle, something not to detailed mechanics but not too lite either. A game with some abstractions but not totally. A little bit of meta-gaming is OK as a mechanic but not as the focus.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490This is, honestly, how I run Fate and how many people I know run Fate. The focus of the game for me is not the flow of Fate points - it's the characters and the story (in that order). People who look for excuses to use their Fate Points, or go trying to shove compels into every situation, are obviously thinking more "meta" - and ironically they typically tend to be the types that try to game the system as much as possible. I've never gotten on well with those types, regardless of the game.

Fate is an elegantly designed system which contributes to its popularity. Because of its Fudge heritage it is very much a toolkit and there are games that implement it in a sensible way like Legends of Angleterre, Dresden Files, etc. A a lot of gamers have fun with it.

And the response I get from my Fate games is basically for every 2 people that goes "That nice but..." there is one that really likes it and it really fires their imagination.

For me personally I am working on a Fudge variant that I can use to convert and publish material I developed for GURPS and Fantasy Hero. In placed of a specific list of gifts, advantages, disadvantages, faults, blah, blah. I am using Fudge Aspects. Take an aspect you get its benefits and consequences. Acquire one in play it comes along. Ditch that all fussing around with with points and what not. Points are used only for attributes and and skills and are solely a marker of experience not of power level. If something is 2 pts versus 1 pt that means it takes twice as long to learn or earn.

The upside is that if stuff happens during the campaign, you just mark it on your character and don't sweat it. The downside it is totally reliant on the referee to make his campaign make sense and not turn into silly land or munchkin land.

And I have my experience with Fate to thank for this.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490...

BTW, me = Rob Hanz.  Just wanted to let you know.  In many cases I'm not so much disagreeing as elaborating.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490To me, at least, this is a really big stretch regarding levels. They have almost no direct correlation to the character, and aren't something that the character thinks about.

Levels and leveling up is also something that typically happens *between* sessions (or at the beginning/end), not *during* a session.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490Fate Points are, pretty much, the same thing. While they might be "meta" from the perspective of influencing something external to the character - that's not all they are used for. They represent the character's experience, importance to, and ability to influence the events around them.

I've also found willpower to be a useful, if not perfect, analogy.  It's like the ability to "give 110%".  The analogy breaks down for some cases, but I find it's generally useful for at least 75% of Fate Point usage.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490then they do tie back to the character's abilities.

Not directly.  They don't (directly) represent anything specific in-game.  You can argue that they're a combination of willpower and a few other things (as I have), but that's weak at best.  The fact that their primary replenishment is based on a player-level event (new session) also contributes to this.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490I'll give you that distinction, I just don't think it's important.

It's apparently an important distinction to many.  Some people really just have the expectation/need that their decisions in-game be based upon what their character can do, and what their character can know.

I think that "out-of-character" decisions are actually common in most games - counting exact squares to center your fireball, etc.  I think in many cases there's a level of unfamiliarity that contributes to the loss of immersion that people feel.  They're *used to* counting squares or similar things, and so it doesn't jar their brain out of flow mode.  They're not used to thinking about Fate Points, so it does.

I also find that the "out of character" moments in Fate are so brief, and the rest of the game so well-focused on "the fiction" vs "the rules and stuff on table" that my overall immersion with Fate tends to be higher than many traditional games.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490I have found that cries of "That's meta!" to be in the name of divisiveness as opposed to a simple observation of rules structure.

Often, agreed.  But I think estar's been pretty good (this is not my first Fate conversation with him) about being consistent in his distaste for meta mechanics - for example, using Luck in GURPS as an example of a meta mechanic.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490Like I pointed out, Fate Points at the very least sit between an abstraction of a character ability and something like Luck - purely from the fact that Fate Points are used to power abilities, and can be used directly in conjunction with the character's aspects.

Yup.  And tying them into the world makes them, to me at least, feel less 'meta' than SW bennies/GURPS luck.

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490This is, honestly, how I run Fate and how many people I know run Fate. The focus of the game for me is not the flow of Fate points - it's the characters and the story (in that order).

Just to clarify because I know this place, "the story" likely means "the stuff that the characters do, and how the world changes and reacts" rather than "the preplanned story the GM wants to tell".

Quote from: Rivetgeek;727490People who look for excuses to use their Fate Points, or go trying to shove compels into every situation, are obviously thinking more "meta"

I agree, and I think there's probably a tendency for players new to the system that are approaching it with a new group to over-emphasize the Fate Point economy/Compels/etc.  I think on the G+ community poll, the average compels per session was what, 1-4?

That's kind of why I'm curious to see how estar plays Fate, and would be interested in running a game for him.  I'm curious how much of his "way too meta" is due to the game and his preferences, and how much is based on the way he's seen it used.

Quote from: estar;727518I don't see how Fate Point represent experience. They can and do go down to zero until a refresh occurs or they are earned during play. They are designed to influence the STORY of what going on which is about as metagame as it gets.

As I said above, I generally think of Fate points more in terms of 'willpower'.  It's not an exact match, but it works for me.  I don't think of them in terms of "how much I can influence the story", like, ever.

Quote from: estar;727518Fate isn't unworkable or "bad" because of it reliance on metagame mechanics. It has consequences however, one consequences it directly rewards sub-optimal decisions by the player when roleplaying his character. If he has a drunken lout aspect, roleplays it, and complications arise; the player not only gets the reward of having experienced an interesting situation but also a direct mechanical benefit of earning a fate point.

I personally see that as a positive thing.  If you're going to put in a mechanic to deal with things like being a drunk, I vastly prefer Fate's "get rewarded when it occurs" model to GURPS' "get rewarded at character creation, and then try your damnedest to avoid it" model.

That's not a hate-on for GURPS, btw, GURPS is probably my lifetime most-played system.

Quote from: estar;727518On the other hand if you run out of fate points in the midst of an adventure it can be jarring not to be able to use certain abilities.

Depends on what the ability is.  There's a lot of assumptions that "mundane things should be infinitely repeatable" that people have.  They key is to fuel stunts with Fate Points only where it makes sense.

Quote from: estar;727518The Fate point economy has a bunch of consequences that for one player really enhances the game and for another it impacts the game negatively. In short its use is not free and not applicable to all gaming groups in all situations.

It's not just the economy, but how front-and-center it is.  I think Rivetgeek and I both play pretty similarly to your "modified" Fate, and would find a game that was primarily about the Fate Point economy to be really weird.

Quote from: estar;727518And it is hence why I am taking the time explain myself. It divisiveness is a result of some groups games considering metagaming as a form of cheating. For groups having fun with games with metagame mechanics they get annoyed at effectively being called cheaters.

I can kind of understand the "cheating" thing.  A lot of it goes to the role of encounters.  In most more traditional RPGs, the point of an "encounter" (in a generic sense) is 'can I get past this?'  That's not really what they do in Fate.  In Fate, it's more about "what happens?"  Success or failure in an encounter is more about what costs you're willing to pay than your ability to strategize.

And in a good Fate game, you don't have enough Fate Points to succeed at *everything*, which can also be jarring to people that have come from a background where succeeding is extremely common.  If I don't have at least one encounter per game that doesn't go the players' way, I know that I've screwed up as a GM.

This *is* one of the things I call out to people I introduce Fate to, to help set expectations appropriately.

Quote from: estar;727518The sentiment is similar to what gamers tell me about Microlite, Savage World,  Fudge, and other RPGs with lite mechanics. Yeah Rob it was fun but really like to go back to X there more stuff to make up my character to get, etc, etc.

Some people like lots of fiddly bits.  And certainly Fate works best when the focus is kept *squarely* on "what's happening in the world" as opposed to the mechanics and how they operate - Fate's mechanics just aren't robust enough to be an interesting "mechanics-first" type of game.

That's why when I introduce Fate to people, I strongly work on setting expectations appropriately, and very strongly keep the focus on "the fiction" rather than the mechanics.

To be clear, I don't mean "mechanics-first" in a derogatory way, and don't mean to imply in any way that someone is "rollplaying not roleplaying" or any crap like that.  It's a question about the flow of information and what is considered primary.  In a mechanics-first game, you primarily interact with the mechanics and whatever set abilities you have, and the results of those mechanics tells you what happens.  By "fiction-first", I mean that you are primarily concerned with the imaginary situation at hand, and are primarily concerned with what your character does in terms of that imaginary situation, and then the mechanics are then consulted to resolve it.

In Fate terms, it's the difference between:
"I Create Advantage on the ledge using my Athletics skill."
and
"I climb on top of the ledge."

The quick gut check is "when I declare an action, am I usually referring to mechanics?"  4e combat, for instance, is generally run as a "mechanics-first" game, while 1e combat can easily be run either way.

And, again, to be clear, that's not a "system" thing, so much as a "table" thing, and shouldn't be interpreted as any kind of superiority thing, or to imply that "mechanics-first" = "rollplaying" or any similar crap.

Then there's also the question of "how much is success predicated on my knowledge and use of the system".  Fate really runs best with that dial turned pretty close to zero - there's not a lot of system mastery to be had.

I'm wondering if some of the people you've played with are really looking for/expecting a mechanics-first game or a higher level of system mastery more than anything else, and so since the skills are so lightweight, they've glommed onto the Fate Point economy as the "interesting" mechanic and so try to manipulate it constantly.  That would certainly explain some of your experience, and I'd have to agree - Fate isn't a very good game if you're playing from a "mechanics-first" viewpoint, and doesn't really support much 'system mastery' play.

Quote from: estar;727518My feeling is that gamers as a whole like something in the middle, something not to detailed mechanics but not too lite either.

Depends on the game.  Fate's a game with a specific focus, and it does some things *very well*.  It does other things poorly.  The key to enjoying Fate is to focus on the things it does well, both as a GM and as a player, and to expect the type of game it does well, rather than expecting the same experience you'd get from, say, GURPS.

Quote from: estar;727518A little bit of meta-gaming is OK as a mechanic but not as the focus.

Yeah, again, when I play Fate, or have played it with others, the metagaming *wasn't* the focus.  I would personally find a high focus on metagaming/the Fate Point economy to be very off-putting.  I've offered to run a Fate game online, and if you're curious as to how I run it, and if there's any difference in focus, you're certainly welcome to join.

Quote from: estar;727518And I have my experience with Fate to thank for this.

Fate, especially Fate Core, is pretty good about getting down to "what impact does this *actually* have on the game".  Whether it scratches anyone's particular itch or not, I think it's a great example of game design.

Quote from: robiswrong;727519I agree, and I think there's probably a tendency for players new to the system that are approaching it with a new group to over-emphasize the Fate Point economy/Compels/etc.  I think on the G+ community poll, the average compels per session was what, 1-4?

The 1-4 Compels per session average tallies with my experience too, but it will vary a lot between session and session. I have read on RPGNet accounts of games with much, much more dynamic Fate Point economies but I have to admit I struggle to imagine how it would work, I feel exhausted just be reading about it!

Hello everyone, I find the Fate system to be good, it seems to expand my imagination, I can see many avenues to creating your own home brew game system with the Fate dice and pick and choose what you desire to use in the Fate Core rules, add on some rules for the setting your creating, it's all in good fun, or keep it all the way it is written already, point is just enjoy it, I even use the Fate Freeport companion to run heroes through Pathfinder modules, or even any edition of D&D, you can rip through an entire module in one evening of play, and get the feeling of truly being in the entire adventure, a great way to learn a module or even campaign solo style dungeon masters, Fate works on many levels for me.

Quote from: The Butcher;726377Also, bear in mind that recognizing a difference between FATE and other, more traditionally designed RPG rulesets doesn't mean that (a) one has to dislike FATE; (b) one has to dislike people playing FATE; or (c) one has to subscribe to any sort of ideological crusade. In fact FATE is explicitly exempt from the site owner's War Against The Swine because he considers it a "regular RPG".

I thought we were supposed to declare fatwa and wage jihad against anyone who plays a game we don't care for personally.

Quote from: lacercorvex;963820Hello everyone, I find the Fate system to be good, it seems to expand my imagination, I can see many avenues to creating your own home brew game system with the Fate dice and pick and choose what you desire to use in the Fate Core rules, add on some rules for the setting your creating, it's all in good fun, or keep it all the way it is written already, point is just enjoy it, I even use the Fate Freeport companion to run heroes through Pathfinder modules, or even any edition of D&D, you can rip through an entire module in one evening of play, and get the feeling of truly being in the entire adventure, a great way to learn a module or even campaign solo style dungeon masters, Fate works on many levels for me.

I think over the long haul you will find the use of Fate Dice to be wonky. That it will work better with d6-d6. That way +2 isn't a 'I win' bonus and you keep the overall structure that you like.

Quote from: estar;964102I think over the long haul you will find the use of Fate Dice to be wonky. That it will work better with d6-d6. That way +2 isn't a 'I win' bonus and you keep the overall structure that you like.

+2 (from an invoke) is really supposed to be a win button.

In terms of skill differential, going head-to-head with someone with a +2 is a very, very bad idea.  Instead, find a way to bring your advantages to play.  Just banging on the attack button in Fate is, in general, pretty suboptimal play.

Quote from: estar;964102I think over the long haul you will find the use of Fate Dice to be wonky. That it will work better with d6-d6. That way +2 isn't a 'I win' bonus and you keep the overall structure that you like.

I've never really had the "I win" problem with Fate. I'm of the opinion that +2 is a feature not a bug - when it meshes with a table's play style.

Quote from: robiswrong;964117+2 (from an invoke) is really supposed to be a win button.

In terms of skill differential, going head-to-head with someone with a +2 is a very, very bad idea.  Instead, find a way to bring your advantages to play.  Just banging on the attack button in Fate is, in general, pretty suboptimal play.

This.