Quote from: The Butcher;725070A book shouldn't have a GM only section.

Players should skip the setting information and antagonist stats (or read them, but ignore the contents while IC) out of minimal human courtesy and gamesmanship.

I really don't see the harm in actually having sections clearly showing "information for the players" and "information for the GM".

So "shouldn't," really? Why not?

Quote from: The Butcher;725070And everyone should know the rules.

You mean before the start of play? I don't want to have to require that from anyone. It'd be like insisting everyone should read the entire booklet of RISK before playing the game, but x100.

I want players to be able to learn by playing.

Quote from: smiorgan;725012I don't buy games for metaplot, and I don't need to be told how to GM, so I don't value GM-only sections.

Although I learned to DM with no real guidance in the first games I played, I can see why most of the GMs I ever played with had the impression that their job was to make the player's lives a living hell when all of the rules focus on making things hard for players.

I think how to GM sections can be very beneficial for newer GMs to get an understanding of what the purpose of the GM is for that particular game, especially when some games are intended as player vs. GM, player vs. player, or player and GM working together. Games can be played outside their intended focus, but rules are often designed in ways that fit a particular approach and knowing that that is can really help.

Quote from: Benoist;725075I really don't see the harm in actually having sections clearly showing "information for the players" and "information for the GM".

So "shouldn't," really? Why not?

I should've appended an "ideally" before those. What I meant is that these labels should be a suggestion rather than an iron-clad mandate.

Quote from: Benoist;725075You mean before the start of play? I don't want to have to require that from anyone. It'd be like insisting everyone should read the entire booklet of RISK before playing the game, but x100.

I want players to be able to learn by playing.

Not beforehand, no. Again, I should've appended an "ideally" here. Most of my players have at least working knowledge of the rules (though I did game for over 15 years with a guy who didn't know which to dice to roll to hit with in a D&D game. Now that was annoying), but the only one who really needs to know what the hell is going on, is the GM.

OK That totally clarifies it for me.

A section on guidance for GMing the particular game would be great, as would a section on guidance for players, but they would be totally optional - except for a game that bills itself for beginners. I have nothing against GM-only sections per se, though I feel that many games don't need them, but only put them in because they are expected. Most scenarios - depending completely on the type of scenario - should have a GM-only section, but this would apply only to introductory scenarios, as we are talking about game books. Regular scenarios/adventures/modules should be assumed to be entirely GM-only by default.

-clash

I like the way Hero Games does things with their setting books. They have a "GM's Vault" at the back, that gives away the secrets of the world the book is about.

The main section will mention places, NPC's, history, etc., and the GM Vault will clarify what is true, what is bullshit, and what is just rumours. It will also explain parts of the world and history that the PC's wouldn't necessarily know about.

Quote from: ggroy;725022I once played in a game where the other players were adamant about seeing all the DM's notes in advance.  (It was an group of mostly inexperienced players).

Seeing my notes in advance?  Do you mean of the adventure about to be run?  As in good guys, villains, force intel, stats and stumbling blocks?

Wow.  Sorry, but I can't characterize any GM who'd knuckle under to such a request other than with the word "spineless."  WTF, did they also go into poker games demanding everyone play their cards on the table?

Quote from: Ravenswing;725221Seeing my notes in advance?  Do you mean of the adventure about to be run?  As in good guys, villains, force intel, stats and stumbling blocks?

Literally.

As far as I could tell (from limited exposure), one individual admitted playing video games regularly using "god mode" cheat codes.

Quote from: Ravenswing;725221WTF, did they also go into poker games demanding everyone play their cards on the table?

With this particular group, I wouldn't be surprised if this was also their mentality in regard to card games.

Quote from: Ravenswing;725221Wow.  Sorry, but I can't characterize any GM who'd knuckle under to such a request other than with the word "spineless."

Plenty of people who can stand up to stupidity will acquiesce to keep the peace. The alternative might be burning social bridges you don't want to.

Still, the trick is to be prepared. That's why my GM's notes always have a full colour A4 photo of my buttocks on page 2. If they read past that, they deserve a reward.

Quote from: ggroy;725046This was a group from many years ago.  It was from answering an ad at a gaming store.

This particular game didn't last long.  It collapsed after about two months of weekly sessions.

Hell, I wouldn't have even played the first session with a bunch of idiots like that.

When I first started playing, the rules weren't published.  Other than knowing it was approximately based off CHAINMAIL, the game was ABOUT discovering the rules empirically.

It's the most fun I have EVER had in D&D.

Quote from: Old Geezer;725413When I first started playing, the rules weren't published.  Other than knowing it was approximately based off CHAINMAIL, the game was ABOUT discovering the rules empirically.

It's the most fun I have EVER had in D&D.

For some people, something like this would be an absolute nightmare.  :rolleyes:

The only other niche I can think of offhand that is also really like this, is cryptography.  (ie. People who are into cracking codes, passwords, etc ...).

Quote from: ggroy;725419For some people, something like this would be an absolute nightmare.  :rolleyes:

The only other niche I can think of offhand that is also really like this, is cryptography.  (ie. People who are into cracking codes, passwords, etc ...).

Actually, it's a major branch of miniatures wargaming; free kriegspiel.

On the flipside of the issue I hate it when GMs can't resist spilling the beans about the metaplot and secrets of the setting.
Our Earthdawn GM loves the setting and will show us big maps and point out what's going on where. Past, present AND future... telling us that who will win which war and which areas are doomed.
He's already told me, out of game, that my PC's sister, the big goal of his multi-year quest, is dead. GAH! He just can't help himself.
Now, every time he starts into 'the big picture' I start shouting 'Don't DO THAT!'
The elements of surprise and mystery are a big part of what I enjoy in a game. I don't want to know what was down that other hallway we didn't investigate or who REALLY killed Uncle Whatsit... it's better left unknown.
 
I can only imagine playing Kult with the guy, he'd be revealing all the secrets in the first session.

Quote from: Old Geezer;725426Actually, it's a major branch of miniatures wargaming; free kriegspiel.

Or a kriegspiel version of chess.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriegspiel_%28chess%29