What system handles gun combat best?

The Traveller · January 18, 2014, 11:25:42 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;724714Oh, come on, you aren't stupid. You are just uneducated.

I'll admit it was out of context given the discussion but you really have to bust out the crayons in some situations.

jeff37923 · January 18, 2014, 11:30:26 PM

Quote from: The Traveller;724715I'll admit it was out of context given the discussion but you really have to bust out the crayons in some situations.

Stick with the Traveller fanbois, under their rough tutelage you'll be using mechanical pencils in no time!

The Traveller · January 18, 2014, 11:34:18 PM

Quote from: jeff37923;724716Stick with the Traveller fanbois, under their rough tutelage you'll be using mechanical pencils in no time!

Not if I want to communicate with traveller fanbois I won't. The universal translator turns into a speak-n-spell.

crkrueger · January 19, 2014, 12:38:32 AM

Quote from: dragoner;724691But it sounds like you are talking about rifle rounds, not pistols; what I am talking about are pistols, and that is what the study is about. Granted, heavier weapons will have more dire effects, to the point that the M2HB I manned on my turret was "illegal" to be considered an anti-personnel weapon due to it's extreme effect.

True, they are definitely talking not only about rifle rounds, but military class or big game hunting class rounds, not even close to 9x19mm or .45ACP.

dragoner · January 19, 2014, 12:56:26 AM

Quote from: CRKrueger;724727True, they are definitely talking not only about rifle rounds, but military class or big game hunting class rounds, not even close to 9x19mm or .45ACP.

Then federal brought out Hydra-Shok bullets for pistols: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra-Shok just to muddy the waters in the debate.

Panzerkraken · January 19, 2014, 06:51:06 AM

Quote from: dragoner;724691But it sounds like you are talking about rifle rounds, not pistols; what I am talking about are pistols, and that is what the study is about. Granted, heavier weapons will have more dire effects, to the point that the M2HB I manned on my turret was "illegal" to be considered an anti-personnel weapon due to it's extreme effect.

You know that's actually not true, right? You can gun folks down with .50 cal, 40mm, hell, you can use a Javelin on people, as long as you're in a war zone and feel that there's an eminent danger to US or civilian lives.

The daisycutter truck mounts from vietnam were legal, the soviet ZSU-23-4 having an anti-infantry depression was legal, even the German use of 37mm antiaircraft guns on infantry was legal.

Ronin · January 19, 2014, 08:53:15 AM

The idea that you can completely quantify damage done by any weapon is non-sense. Yes technically a .45 has a greater damage capacity than a .22. But I've seen accounts of people struck by a single .22 kill them stone dead. Personally know people hit by 9mm, 7.62x39mm, and 7.92x57mm (in some cases shot multiple times) and survive. All damage, even in real life is fairly abstract. So if you think HP, wounds, or what have you work better. Use it. None of them are any more correct/better than the other.

dragoner · January 19, 2014, 09:51:46 AM

Quote from: Panzerkraken;724764You know that's actually not true, right? You can gun folks down with .50 cal ...

It what I was told by the instructors at Ft Knox, the M2HB was illegal for use against people, fine for use against equipment, and as a corollary, a canteen was equipment. They definitely could have been pulling my leg, I've never actually looked into it deeper. I don't think it was any worse than firing an HE round from the 105mm or 120mm guns at them.

Omega · January 19, 2014, 10:04:33 AM

Quote from: Ronin;724772The idea that you can completely quantify damage done by any weapon is non-sense. Yes technically a .45 has a greater damage capacity than a .22. But I've seen accounts of people struck by a single .22 kill them stone dead. Personally know people hit by 9mm, 7.62x39mm, and 7.92x57mm (in some cases shot multiple times) and survive. All damage, even in real life is fairly abstract. So if you think HP, wounds, or what have you work better. Use it. None of them are any more correct/better than the other.

That is the same impression I got while researching for a book and talking with my dad and another veteran.

Combat is absolutely random and unpredictable. Knives, guns, bombs, doesnt matter.

So I use HP in the AD&D manner. A bit of meat and alot of "other". Which means shooting at someone is going to whittle away at chunks of their "luck" and a bit of meat until they dont have any more left. A more experienced person is going to dance around and take more to finally drop.

All that said. I dont mind systems with one hit kill combat. But thered better be alot of mitigating factors to prevent the characters from dropping like flies. Unless its Paranoia...

The Traveller · January 19, 2014, 10:32:10 AM

Quote from: Omega;724777Combat is absolutely random and unpredictable. Knives, guns, bombs, doesnt matter.

So would you rather be stabbed or have a hand grenade polish your shoes.

Its possible to keep a good degree of randomness in combat while also lending weight where weight is due - more powerful weapons, better training etc. Discarding these factors entirely is just silly.

Endless Flight · January 19, 2014, 03:19:35 PM

I would almost rather have the hand grenade give my shoes a shine because I'm afraid of very sharp knives, even kitchen cutlery.

Omega · January 19, 2014, 07:45:53 PM

Quote from: The Traveller;724781So would you rather be stabbed or have a hand grenade polish your shoes.

Its possible to keep a good degree of randomness in combat while also lending weight where weight is due - more powerful weapons, better training etc. Discarding these factors entirely is just silly.

No. Im saying that they all have a random factor. The grenade may bounce wrong, the knife may deflect off a rib, the target may jink left just a fraction faster. etc.

Better training means you are more likely to hit. But still the random factor is waiting to screw with even the best.

Hyper-Man · January 27, 2014, 11:28:00 PM

Quote from: Bill;724189Aftermath.

Just kidding!

Actually, I would suggest Hero for rules that can simulate guns with some semblance of reality.

Plus, with Hero you have rules to allow the mixing with virtually any other genre or setting. You are not stuck with just a system that is good for gun combat.

Bill · January 29, 2014, 03:06:06 PM

Quote from: Hyper-Man;727359Plus, with Hero you have rules to allow the mixing with virtually any other genre or setting. You are not stuck with just a system that is good for gun combat.

I am no gun expert, but Hero makes it easy to create guns of great variety.

AP, HE, Incendiary, or poison rounds? Scope? Rate of fire? Ammo supply? Range? Recoil? All of that is easy in Hero.

Sacrosanct · January 29, 2014, 03:13:43 PM

Quote from: Bill;727926I am no gun expert, but Hero makes it easy to create guns of great variety.

AP, HE, Incendiary, or poison rounds? Scope? Rate of fire? Ammo supply? Range? Recoil? All of that is easy in Hero.

I'm a gun nut of sorts, so having rules for that is important to me. In my game, I did something very similar in that you simply choose an option for a series of table, and the final weapon is represented not only by whatever name you want to give it, but a military-esque designation.

For example, a RC-S2 is a rifle(R), cartridge (C), Semi-auto (S), medium caliber (2) weapon. Each table (letter designation) assigns attributes such as range, base damage, etc.