Quote from: thedungeondelver;722060I'm reminded of some commentaries Gene Wilder made about Young Frankenstein (or maybe it was Mel Brooks who said it, but it could've been either of them).  Anyway, when the movie was turned over to the editor and he watched the rough cut he called them all in and said "What I have here is two and a half hours of awful film.  Give me a week and I can give you about two hours of bad film.  Give me three weeks and I can give you about two hours of great film."

The rest, as they say, is history.

I often wonder if editing is why Mel Brooks later movies are so much less enjoyable than his earlier ones (the difference between blazing saddles and young frankenstein versus Dracula: Dead and loving it and Life Stinks is pretty huge).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722062I often wonder if editing is why Mel Brooks later movies are so much less enjoyable than his earlier ones (the difference between blazing saddles and young frankenstein versus Dracula: Dead and loving it and Life Stinks is pretty huge).

I've often wondered the same thing.  Honestly, Spaceballs was the last really good thing he did and it drags in places (not many though).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722062I often wonder if editing is why Mel Brooks later movies are so much less enjoyable than his earlier ones (the difference between blazing saddles and young frankenstein versus Dracula: Dead and loving it and Life Stinks is pretty huge).

Interesting point, and I think you might be right. Though I'd also say that he fell into the same problem that Tarantino does right now - making the same film, in different genre.

Quote from: Rincewind1;722065Interesting point, and I think you might be right. Though I'd also say that he fell into the same problem that Tarantino does right now - making the same film, in different genre.

But i was fine with him doing that as long as it was funny and held my interest (same with tarantino, his last few movies have been similar but i have enjoyed them all). brook's earlier movies were similar but funny, while Dracula: Dead and Loving It was so bad it is one of two movies i walked out of in my entire life.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;722059Working in an editorial office, I learned a good editor helps you improve your work regardless of how good you might already be. First, do no harm, then help the writer improve strengths and diminish weaknesses. That is an involved process though and often beyond the pay grade of a typical rpg editor (I am thinking here of several back and forths with a single document where the editor really helps the writer with things like structure, style, focus, clarity of ideas, and flow).

Absolutely, that's why writers need to hand in the most polished draft they can, especially if they have a good editor. Good editors get juiced by bringing B-level writing up to an A or A+. Give them C-level writing and you're likely to get a B-level final product, because their talent and energy is being squandered on "gruntwork" passes for which the effort isn't usually worth the reward.

Quote from: Rincewind1;722029I'll be sure to tell you when someone starts a boycott of Stavropoulos and demand his employers stop working with him, because he's making the hobby too sensitive, or that someone demands convention panels on sexism in RPGs to be pulled. You know, like Desbrough and trying to get Escapist to stop with I Hit it With my Axe (and I admit I gave Zack a fair bit of unnecessary shit for riding that former porn star edge, but I didn't say his very work is amoral). And I purposefully use Zack here, because from what I remember, it was some of the more hardcore grogs that attacked him.

Did you miss it when I said I was tired of the SJWs and wanted them to shut up too? That was my point - I'm sick of both sides going on about their Way To Save The Hobby, Why Protectionism / Free Speech Is Best, and Why So-And-So Is Wrong And Evil. Both sides have awful people in them. Both sides, in the main, are made of perfectly good people. Saying "shut up and get on with your lives" to both extremes isn't somehow favoring one side over the other. Indeed, it would seem obvious to me that saying "shut up" to both includes saying "stop with your ludicrous calls to boycott" to one - only in a less pithy manner.

Plus, you know, the whole post is a petty gripe on my part. In keeping with the thread.

Quote from: Azzy;722043Sylvan/Wood elves have always been +Strength since they've been introduced in D&D to my memory.

Wait, what?

Quote from: The Butcher;722140Wait, what?

Quote from: 1e AD&D MM, p. 40, "Elf"Wood Elf: Sometimes called sylvan elves, these creatures are very reclusive and generally (75%) avoid all contact. Wood elves are more neutral than are other elves. They are unusually strong for elves (add +1 to all die rolls, treating 19 as 18). but they are not quite as intelligent (treat 18 intelligence as 17).

I can't speak to other editions.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;722058Salvaged?

The vast majority of movies are MADE in editing.

Every Best Picture and Best Director Oscar should include by default a second statue for the Editor.

Quote from: CRKrueger;722151Every Best Picture and Best Director Oscar should include by default a second statue for the Editor.

I don't think it's a coincidence that every time they announce the nominees for Best Editing, they've typically been nominated or won a half-dozen times before. One of the must-haves for any big successful picture is having one of the 4 or 5 top editors in Hollywood on board.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;722150I can't speak to other editions.

Thanks. I somehow missed that.

In any case, a +Str +Dex sylvan elf race for 4e would make some amazing melee-oriented Ranger. Pity WotC missed that.

Quote from: The Butcher;722167I somehow missed that.

[martial arts movie dub voice] YOUR GROGNARD FU IS WEAK! MY GROGNARD FU IS SUPERIOR! [/martial arts movie dub voice]

Ah, yes, petty gripes about writing?

Most gamers can only consciously notice artifacts of poor line editing. Broken sentences, typos, bad punctuation, and the like. That's fine, and games need to have decent line editing.

Most gamers can subconsciously notice poor writing or overall editing. They'll get frustrated with rambling or disjointed text, or slowly become fatigued as they read. But they generally won't consciously realize that it's poor writing or editing, especially if the line editing was decent.

This means that people subconsciously like the really good writing and dislike the really poor stuff, but don't mention it in their reviews or commentary on the game. They'll mention art quality and maybe layout, but good writing is a big deal for me and it's very hard to get a real preview of it before I buy.

Bad writing and editing are contagious, influencing the next generation of writers and editors. Good writing and editing, on the other hand, goes sadly unappreciated despite being really important to making useful products. Which means there's less incentive to get it right beyond professional pride unless you're one of the veterans who has finally made people sit up and notice the quality (Ken Hite, for instance.)

The end result is that I have a lot of good RPGs that are marred by slow, rambling presentation or ludicrously complex sentences*. While I can certainly read and reread games like that until I understand them, it's frustrating when I can't grasp large sections in one go. Whereas I tend to really give games a chance when they have good writing, even when the mechanics or setting aren't my favorite.

*I'm not a big fan of academic writing either, because quite a few professors seem to believe, through some confusion of things which must have been learned prior to the current time--which is to say the time of writing--that in all circumstances, save for those that mandate brevity, that ludicrously complex sentences with poor concept flow--to say nothing of overuse of prepositional phrases and constant interruptions--are, in essence, an amazingly effective way to demonstrate competency and skill. (See what I did there?)

Quote from: Zeea;722191*I'm not a big fan of academic writing either, because quite a few professors seem to believe, through some confusion of things which must have been learned prior to the current time--which is to say the time of writing--that in all circumstances, save for those that mandate brevity, that ludicrously complex sentences with poor concept flow--to say nothing of overuse of prepositional phrases and constant interruptions--are, in essence, an amazingly effective way to demonstrate competency and skill. (See what I did there?)

You need to toss at least one word or phrase of arcane jargon in there as well as at least one reference to another book to get Prof-cred.

Quote from: Zeea;722191Most gamers . . .

Quote from: Zeea;722191Most gamers . . .

Quote from: Zeea;722191This means that people. . .

Quote from: Zeea;722191. . . quite a few professors . . .

Quote from: Zeea;722191(See what I did there?)

More than you realize.