RIFTS isn't a traditional RPG.  It defies a lot of expectations.  Character advancement, for example, is almost nonexistent. The power levels between the characters and NPCs skew wildly.  The setting itself is very much in flux.

If you are a "make it up as you go, and what the GM says goes" type of group, then RIFTS can be a lot of fun.  But it's genuinely closer to a story game than it is to, say D&D. Not that the players control the plot, but that their characters probably can't. You're along for the ride, doing what you can until you screw up royally.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720106RIFTS isn't a traditional RPG.  It defies a lot of expectations.  

I disagree, but I'm willing to see where you're going with this.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720106Character advancement, for example, is almost nonexistent.

That's just crazy talk. It's got experience levels, and skills scale with them.

Your Glitter Boy or SAMAS might not gain extra MDC, but that's a ton more "character advancement" than Traveller or even BRP.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720106The power levels between the characters and NPCs skew wildly.  

Also between PCs and PCs. Not sure what's "not traditional" with this.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720106The setting itself is very much in flux.

Also not sure what's that supposed to mean. Every good setting should change with time.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720106If you are a "make it up as you go, and what the GM says goes" type of group, then RIFTS can be a lot of fun.

Absolutely. Part of the reason I stuck with Rifts for so long is that it complemented my GMing style very well.

Well, except for character generation but that's another story.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720106But it's genuinely closer to a story game than it is to, say D&D. Not that the players control the plot, but that their characters probably can't. You're along for the ride, doing what you can until you screw up royally.

Now you're making no sense whatsoever, at least to me.

This sounds less like an intrinsic property of the game, and more like your Rifts GM's stylistic quirks.

Care to elaborate?

Two Words: Glitter Boy.

The power creep was there from the beginning, I also got off the roundabout when the Russian cyborgs came along, but it was all good as long as the party is all MDC creatures or juicers or whatever.

A Juicer, baby dragon and cosmo knight walk into a bar ...



..then fall through the floor cause it was sdc!

Quote from: The Butcher;720184That's just crazy talk. It's got experience levels, and skills scale with them.

Your Glitter Boy or SAMAS might not gain extra MDC, but that's a ton more "character advancement" than Traveller or even BRP.

Some examples:
+3% to Prowl is not meaningful. Nor are additional HPs under mega damage.
A 5th level character is not necessarily more powerful than a 1st.

It reminds me of "Whose Line is it Anyway, where the points don't matter".  If you want character advancement in RIFTS, wait for a new book to come out and reroll.

Even CRPGs have the RPG concept of a level up.

Quote from: The Butcher;720184Also between PCs and PCs. Not sure what's "not traditional" with this.

As above. A 'max level' Vagabond is inferior to a first level Dragon.  Without knowing your party, it's basically impossible to plan an adventure. You can do a sandbox, but even still the amount of fun will vary a lot based on character selection.  This is why RIFTS does not have an eqivalent to the D&D style module.  In D&D you can have rough expectations of relative character power based on level.

Quote from: The Butcher;720184Also not sure what's that supposed to mean. Every good setting should change with time.

I didn't say "changes" I said "in flux".  As in what you knew yesterday isn't true today.  Entire cities can go poof.  A new book invalidates physics or depicts a landscape changing war.  Demons appear from nowhere.  Stuff like that.  Your typical RPG is more static.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720195Some examples:
+3% to Prowl is not meaningful. Nor are additional HPs under mega damage.
A 5th level character is not necessarily more powerful than a 1st.

It reminds me of "Whose Line is it Anyway, where the points don't matter".  If you want character advancement in RIFTS, wait for a new book to come out and reroll.

Your arguments hold water if and only if your Rifts game is a succession of MDC firefights or monster melees. But there are many, many ways to play Rifts.

If you have to infiltrate the Vault at Chi-Town to recover the Greater Rune Macguffin of Awesome, the Dragon is useless and 10 percentile points with Prowl (or Surveillance Systems, or Computer Hacking) can make a huge difference.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720195Even CRPGs have the RPG concept of a level up.

So by that rationale, World of Warcraft is a "traditional RPG", and Classic Traveller isn't? Fascinating.

Quote from: mcbobbo;720195As above. A 'max level' Vagabond is inferior to a first level Dragon.  Without knowing your party, it's basically impossible to plan an adventure. You can do a sandbox, but even still the amount of fun will vary a lot based on character selection.  This is why RIFTS does not have an eqivalent to the D&D style module.  In D&D you can have rough expectations of relative character power based on level.

Different characters appeal to different players. Again, if your campaign is set in Chi-Town, the Vagabond PC will have a much easier time doing things and merely existing than the Dragon.

And even if it's a loosely knit sequence of combats in the vast unending wilderness, some people still enjoy playing characters that live by their wits rather than superior firepower.
 

Quote from: mcbobbo;720195I didn't say "changes" I said "in flux".  As in what you knew yesterday isn't true today.  Entire cities can go poof.  A new book invalidates physics or depicts a landscape changing war.  Demons appear from nowhere.  Stuff like that.  Your typical RPG is more static.

There's certainly plenty of justification for these things to happen in the setting, but really, other than the Tolkeen books (which I've skipped entirely), I don't see them happening a lot over the course of Rifts. Again, it really, really depends on how the GM's running the game.

And I still don't get what any of this has to do with Rifts not being a traditional RPG.

Quote from: ForumScavenger;719878Dan, a part of why I feel the world needs to be chopped up in the way it is, is that I think having a lot of anarchy is important in the setting. There has to be limits on how information travels and how resources and people get around.

Yes, that is necessary for the setting to make sense. So, I don't mean to be rude, but what's your point? If you're arguing that Palladium hasn't built an internally consistent setting or could do a better job of it, I'm inclined to agree.

QuoteIf Frank is playing a Mind Melter, and he fries a Coalition soldier, the other Coalition troops are going to radio your position to base. A Robot flies over and spots you. A hover craft is then deployed full of robots to come and waste you. If you escape them, they just radio ahead to the next base and they send people after you. It would be worse than real life because everything flies.

The fact that you solve problems in this game with mini missiles makes me think there is some reason the CS can't just come after you. The whole idea of the CS having these boarders of claimed territory doesn't sit right with me. Are they collecting taxes or providing services to be inside those boarders? Do they have some capacity to maintain them from anything walking through? If someone gets into trouble 200 miles from Chi Town, can they just deploy a bunch of spider walkers or are they too few to spend that way?

I've always run it as the Coalition States having just enough power to maintain order within their own borders, and even then only really in and around the fortified cities. In theory, the Coalition might claim a swath of territory and enforce the claim by force if they catch an intruder. But, that's a pretty big "if." In practice, much of that territory is a buffer zone between the Coalition and its (actual or perceived) enemies, and it's possible for those small bands of anomic weirdos we all know and love to slip through the cracks.

So, no the Coalition does not have the resources to realistically project its power hither and yon. Karl Prosek may dream of conquering Tolkeen, but he's a megalomaniac.

Granted, the official fluff (at least post-CWC) disagrees, with the CS having the means to fight a two front war and mostly win. I ignore this.

Quote from: ForumScavenger;719878Dan, a part of why I feel the world needs to be chopped up in the way it is, is that I think having a lot of anarchy is important in the setting. There has to be limits on how information travels and how resources and people get around.

If Frank is playing a Mind Melter, and he fries a Coalition soldier, the other Coalition troops are going to radio your position to base. A Robot flies over and spots you. A hover craft is then deployed full of robots to come and waste you. If you escape them, they just radio ahead to the next base and they send people after you. It would be worse than real life because everything flies.

The fact that you solve problems in this game with mini missiles makes me think there is some reason the CS can't just come after you. The whole idea of the CS having these boarders of claimed territory doesn't sit right with me. Are they collecting taxes or providing services to be inside those boarders? Do they have some capacity to maintain them from anything walking through? If someone gets into trouble 200 miles from Chi Town, can they just deploy a bunch of spider walkers or are they too few to spend that way?

One of the problems is that communications lines are limited. The rifts and active laylines make long distance communication either a problem or non-existent. There are probably areas that have been blacked out due to radiation, weird science, aliens, or even magic.

You can come up with lots of reasons why the coalition or anyone else isnt able to spread word like wildfire of trouble. That goes both ways too. Players and resistance groups are limited in how far communication lines can go before something cuts it off.

Quote from: Omega;720436One of the problems is that communications lines are limited. The rifts and active laylines make long distance communication either a problem or non-existent. There are probably areas that have been blacked out due to radiation, weird science, aliens, or even magic.

You can come up with lots of reasons why the coalition or anyone else isnt able to spread word like wildfire of trouble. That goes both ways too. Players and resistance groups are limited in how far communication lines can go before something cuts it off.

For one thing, they've specifically said that there is no GPS.  Who would put up new satellites, for one thing?

JG

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;719855Slightly off-topic: Is Rifts worth picking up and playing? If so, which version (Are there more than one?) and if not using the original mechanics, which substitute?

Yes, absolutely worth picking up. I'd suggest the original book, its still very easy to get; but if you can't find it the RIFTS Ultimate Edition (TM) is also ok.

RPGPundit

Quote from: James Gillen;720444For one thing, they've specifically said that there is no GPS.  Who would put up new satellites, for one thing?

JG

They keep trying. But there are still active killsats that zap attempts. Not sure what book that was in.

Quote from: Omega;721475They keep trying. But there are still active killsats that zap attempts. Not sure what book that was in.

They can't actually create rules for those because then they'd have to make them into an RCC.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;721488They can't actually create rules for those because then they'd have to make them into an RCC.

JG

Don't you mean R.C.C.?  

Quote from: Omega;721475They keep trying. But there are still active killsats that zap attempts. Not sure what book that was in.

Mutants In Orbit. Nominally a TMNT/After The Bomb supplement with a Rifts-specific section.

Too bad they couldn't do the same to Mutants In Avalon. Far better than lame-ass Rifts England.

Not just killsats, but a counter rotating debris field created for area denial.

Quote from: Old One Eye;721613Don't you mean R.C.C.?  

Don't you mean R.C.C.™?