Quote from: Spinachcat;711210This is true, but sounding scientifically accurate, or at least plausible does the job just fine for the vast majority of educated readers. Michael Crichton made many millions by sounding plausible, even when he wasn't.

Except when you link to an article on gravitational lens effects that does not even support how the term is used in your own setting, this is a sign that you are sufferring from Gross Conceptual Error - which really hurts suspension of disbelief.

The Traveller is not Michael Crichton. Michael Crichton did his homework.

Well this went well.

Quote from: Spinachcat;711210Good point.

The Traveller, how will this issue be resolved in your campaign?

That's already been addressed:

"Even if various groups feel the need to communicate with some central authority, without the ability to project force that communication means little. At best you're talking about making a ten month intervention pause into a five month intervention pause, assuming incidents haven't been blanket jammed.

And this is why the earth today, with near instantaneous and ubiquitous communication, is under the tranquil rule of a single earth government. The one doesn't follow from the other. Nor and conversely, might I add, did months of communication time particularly deter the Mongols or European colonial powers from maintaining hugely dispersed territories."

Quote from: Spinachcat;711210If the gas / dust is so thick that it can affect communication, won't that affect movement through space? Or do they have force fields / energy shields?

Certain frequencies of radio waves will pass through all but the most dense dust clouds, but yes, the dust will affect movement. Pretty much the faster you go the more dangerous even tiny particles become. A fly hits your windscreen at 120km/h, nobody cares. A fly hits your hull at 6000 km/h, it can cause quite a dent. Even paint flecks in orbit have cratered the ISS, and that's not going at interplanetary speeds. For example, here's what a 1 gram object (a penny is 2.5 grams) does while travelling at the ISS orbital speed (23,000 ft/sec) to a solid block of Aluminum.



Moving forward from this setting, if travelling at .999c, a few molecules per square meter suddenly starts to look like a reef to an oceangoing liner, making navigation a major challenge. So even with non relativistic vehicles we're talking shifting trade routes and maps of the system - it's quite difficult to map dust, as it turns out, so the awesome becomes awesomer, needing local guides like the early Mississippi riverboats did or great skill if you want to make the run in good time and one piece. Especially because there are plenty of places without local guides.

Needless to say this has the potential to interfere with rapid military interventions.

Quote from: Spinachcat;711210Even if he does fully understand them, the problem I see is educating the players and the GM as these concepts come into play.

What's your plan there Traveller?

My plan is to generally pay no attention to muppets who stagger into the thread with a mean drunk on them spoiling for a fight, before pissing themselves all over the internet when it's revealed that they know less than nothing of which they're talking about. And it's not the first time his bad habits have gotten him in trouble either, lest anyone forget.

Quote from: Spinachcat;711210Dude, no pissing on Traveller until your setting becomes a bonafide financial success. That's, as you say, bollocks.

At no point did I piss on traveller, it's perfectly adequate and workmanlike.

Quote from: jeff37923;711211Except when you link to an article on gravitational lens effects that does not even support how the term is used in your own setting, this is a sign that you are sufferring from Gross Conceptual Error - which really hurts suspension of disbelief.

The Traveller is not Michael Crichton. Michael Crichton did his homework.

And the complete fucking idiot still battles on, even after being shown up. You don't even understand the concept, which is why you brought up a completely unrelated idea and tried to make out it was the same. Are you sober enough to understand this? But you forgot to claim that I imagined futuristic dinosaurs were actually real this time.

Quote from: Opaopajr;711223Well this went well.

Actually I'd say it went passably well, we've certainly established that the traveller system has a lifespan limited to the length of time the current fan club can stave off sclerosis. After which point it'll have to stand on its own merits, god help it.

Quote from: jeff37923;711193You know what is hard about science fiction? Maintaining a suspension of disbelief, you can get away with it in fantasy as long as you are internally consistant. Science fiction has all these other things to get in the way of freewheeling narrative - like Laws of Engineering and Physical Laws of the Universe. That is why you see more science fantasy like Star Wars and Star Trek than you do science fiction like Deep Impact. If your setting does not make enough sense, it cannot maintain the audience or Player's sense of disbelief.

Jeff, you are the reason I skip chapters in Larry Niven novels.

I found it always useful to underline fiction in science fiction. That spectrum between plausible v. fantastic is about as ugly as any of the great nerd debates out there. Besides, give it a few centuries, a lot of what we think we know will be corrected anyway.

Quote from: VectorSigma;711234Jeff, you are the reason I skip chapters in Larry Niven novels.

Then you surrender too much power to me.

Quote from: The Traveller;711226My plan is to generally pay no attention to muppets who stagger into the thread with a mean drunk on them spoiling for a fight, before pissing themselves all over the internet when it's revealed that they know less than nothing of which they're talking about. And it's not the first time his bad habits have gotten him in trouble either, lest anyone forget.

Well, that certainly made me start my day with a laugh.

Do tell, what other bad habits do I have?

Quote from: The Traveller;711226And the complete fucking idiot still battles on, even after being shown up. You don't even understand the concept, which is why you brought up a completely unrelated idea and tried to make out it was the same. Are you sober enough to understand this? But you forgot to claim that I imagined futuristic dinosaurs were actually real this time.


Actually I'd say it went passably well, we've certainly established that the traveller system has a lifespan limited to the length of time the current fan club can stave off sclerosis. After which point it'll have to stand on its own merits, god help it.

Sorry, but not drunk. Also not wrong.

Stick with science fantasy, it'll be easier for you.

Y'know, as we head into page 5 of this elucidating debate, I was thinking that the more productive angle would be offering one's own alternative explanation to the same "nebulae screensaver" effect (along with the discourse why such seems more plausible).

But that's just me.:idunno:

Quote from: Opaopajr;711249Y'know, as we head into page 5 of this elucidating debate, I was thinking that the more productive angle would be offering one's own alternative explanation to the same "nebulae screensaver" effect (along with the discourse why such seems more plausible).

But that's just me.:idunno:

Why?

Quote from: Opaopajr;711249Y'know, as we head into page 5 of this elucidating debate, I was thinking that the more productive angle would be offering one's own alternative explanation to the same "nebulae screensaver" effect (along with the discourse why such seems more plausible).

But that's just me.:idunno:

Eh I think what set him off was the phrase "age of sail in space" which I now realise is written on the traveller RPG wikipedia page. And we all know how that goes when jeff gets involved...

Quote from: The Traveller;711161On the other hand, if one could say create a long lived gravitational gradient in front of a ship, like throwing a rock down an almost infinitely deep gravity well, one could constantly accelerate to high percentages of lightspeed, which is the basis for the interstellar ships in the next phase of the timeline. The working model is that these drives, pioneered by the hyperminds like the nazis pioneered rockets, will borrow the gravity well from elsewhere.

Recent experiments have shown that time dilation is the effect of experiencing acceleration and NOT speed.  So, projecting an aftificaial gravity well in front of a ship to "fall into" could theoretically mean reaching FTL speeds with no time dilation problem.  The ship would be in free fall.

Quote from: The Traveller;711251Eh I think what set him off was the phrase "age of sail in space" which I now realise is written on the traveller RPG wikipedia page. And we all know how that goes when jeff gets involved...

You have nothing left, so you insult when you should be trying to explain how in the fuck your godlike AI's built a gravitational lens and then turned it into a galaxy gun. I won't even go off on how to achieve your stellar event, you would have to shoot some of your near-C projectiles through the same gas/dust cloud to get even compression from the detonations.

Quote from: Arduin;711253Recent experiments have shown that time dilation is the effect of experiencing acceleration and NOT speed.  So, projecting an aftificaial gravity well in front of a ship to "fall into" could theoretically mean reaching FTL speeds with no time dilation problem.  The ship would be in free fall.

And the laughs just keep on coming....

Quote from: jeff37923;711255And the laughs just keep on coming....

I guess???  Examine the NASA experiments data.  Or, can't you use a search engine?

Quote from: Arduin;711253Recent experiments have shown that time dilation is the effect of experiencing acceleration and NOT speed.  So, projecting an aftificaial gravity well in front of a ship to "fall into" could theoretically mean reaching FTL speeds with no time dilation problem.  The ship would be in free fall.

Well FTL isn't possible to the best knowledge of science in any case, unless you're sidestepping physics somehow, but the envisioned mechanism of gravity drives more "spits" a brief gravity gradient in front of the ship which the ship then falls through, so your top speed is limited by how quickly and how far ahead the gradients can be generated. Creating a single infinitely deep well would need infinite energy, but you can get pretty fast by skipping through a series of much shallower wells. All imaginary of course but I feel it has a nice internal logic to it.

Quote from: Arduin;711256I guess???  Examine the NASA experiments data.  Or, can't you use a search engine?

Probably best not to engage jeff on traveller matters, he had to be pulled aside by Rincewind for a one man intervention the last time he went berserk over the game.