Quote from: noisms;703693Moorcock wrote a lot of stuff that is entirely in the same vein as the Dragonlance Books. He wrote some that is better, yes. But Corum? Hawkmoon? Come on.

That's precisely what I was talking about when I said that Moorcock's bibliography is a) huge and b) extremely variable. (In particular, the Corum and Hawkmoon stuff were both series Moorcock knocked out quickly for easy money, and he's been very open about that.)

The point I was making is that Moorcock, Lovecraft, and most of the others I cited at their best absolutely trounce Weis and Hickman at their best. And why would you spend time on inferior work unless you were very enamoured of the author in question?

Quote from: Warthur;704128That's precisely what I was talking about when I said that Moorcock's bibliography is a) huge and b) extremely variable. (In particular, the Corum and Hawkmoon stuff were both series Moorcock knocked out quickly for easy money, and he's been very open about that.)

The point I was making is that Moorcock, Lovecraft, and most of the others I cited at their best absolutely trounce Weis and Hickman at their best. And why would you spend time on inferior work unless you were very enamoured of the author in question?

How do you know in advance if what you are reading is Moorcock when he can be bothered turning it on?

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion would result in only ever reading Shakespeare, Dickens, Proust and Tolstoy because it is a fair bet that at their best they are better than other writers and you have a reasonable inkling of that in advance.

Finally, when you are 12 Weis & Hickman at their best may be better than even a great writer at his best. I bet if I'd read the Viriconium stories at age 12 I would have wondered what on earth the point of them was.

When I was in middle and high school, I was seriously reading a novel every night. There are only so many masters of writing around, so I've read some stuff that is all over the chart quality wise, and some of it is very enjoyable even if it isn't quality literature.

Quote from: noisms;704142Finally, when you are 12 Weis & Hickman at their best may be better than even a great writer at his best. I bet if I'd read the Viriconium stories at age 12 I would have wondered what on earth the point of them was.

I actually read the Timescape paperback edition of "The Pastel City" at 10 or 11, and I reacted to it entirely as an adventure story. But that is probably the only Virconium story that works at the level a kid could enjoy.

Quote from: therealjcm;704163I actually read the Timescape paperback edition of "The Pastel City" at 10 or 11, and I reacted to it entirely as an adventure story. But that is probably the only Virconium story that works at the level a kid could enjoy.

Yeah, I can see that, although can you imagine reading "In Viriconium" at that age? It may be one of the greatest pieces of fantasy ever written, in my view, but it just isn't for 12 year-olds. And to be honest, even though "The Pastel City" sort of works as an adventure story, as a pure adventure story that adolescents might enjoy I think it probably works less well than meaningless but entertaining stuff-and-nonsense like "A Princess of Mars", the Corum stories, or the Dragonlance novels.

There are plenty of other examples in the canon of great fantasy literature too, of course.

Quote from: noisms;704172Yeah, I can see that, although can you imagine reading "In Viriconium" at that age? It may be one of the greatest pieces of fantasy ever written, in my view, but it just isn't for 12 year-olds. And to be honest, even though "The Pastel City" sort of works as an adventure story, as a pure adventure story that adolescents might enjoy I think it probably works less well than meaningless but entertaining stuff-and-nonsense like "A Princess of Mars", the Corum stories, or the Dragonlance novels.

True enough, I was a ferocious little reader, but oddly picky. Even at a very young age the Tolkien clones and "better by the pound" fantasy series left me cold. So I wound up reading a lot of the old classics before I was really ready to understand them, along with pure entertainment of varying levels of quality.

QuoteThere are plenty of other examples in the canon of great fantasy literature too, of course.

Definitely. The Once and Future King is a great story, a great book, and works for young kids, adolescents and adults. It makes me a little sad that I have friends who won't read it because they don't like the Aurthur stories.

There is admittedly a place for popcorn books, books that read like action movies and should come with a side of buttery popcorn. Michael Crichton is like that to me. Not terribly deep, usually bloated with action and suspense, and left sorta "over it" afterwards, but not a bad ride for the cost.

But not in my locovore, free-ranged, artesian beans, non-chain café. I mean, what will the baristas think?
:hand:

But I'm sure we can all agree Tom Clancy was phoning it in for years and his materiel readouts posed as novels were starting to suck, right?

Quote from: Opaopajr;704241There is admittedly a place for popcorn books, books that read like action movies and should come with a side of buttery popcorn. Michael Crichton is like that to me. Not terribly deep, usually bloated with action and suspense, and left sorta "over it" afterwards, but not a bad ride for the cost.

But not in my locovore, free-ranged, artesian beans, non-chain café. I mean, what will the baristas think?
:hand:

But I'm sure we can all agree Tom Clancy was phoning it in for years and his materiel readouts posed as novels were starting to suck, right?

I've only read "The Hunt for Red October" and "Clear and Present Danger". I tried reading "Against All Enemies" a few years ago and it was bloody awful - unreadable tripe.

The worst, unreadable tripe I read was when I tried reading the first book in the Left Behind, what is it now, decalogy?

I may hate Finnigan's Wake terribly, but this stuff was trying to be coherent, everyday writing. It was even worse than WW Gangrel clan novel in ham handed plot, easily the worst of the interwoven clan novel lot. And its spastic flux between explosive, jocular dialogue and just plain ol' Michael Bay over-saturation (like, "zOMG, it's the end of the world! guess I shouldn't have committed adultery. Oh shit, here comes an explosive crisis!" *boom*) would make a Battletech novel blush.

I couldn't help myself to play "let's count the typos!" and stopped somewhere after twenty from the first few pages. We're talking under 5 pages few. A truly frightening book, far worse than most horror, as I realized there's obscene money pouring into these yahoo venues to artificially inflate sell rate and propagation.

The movie was even scarier. Not even funny-but-exhausting bad like the modern Atlas Shrugged pt. 1. Just humorless, where-the-fuck-are-the-psycho-motherfuckers-funding-this-shit? bad. And it had Kurt Cameron trying to be all earnest and shit, with nary a banana public service announcement in sight.
:mad:

Quote from: Opaopajr;704324The worst, unreadable tripe I read was when I tried reading the first book in the Left Behind, what is it now, decalogy?

I may hate Finnigan's Wake terribly, but this stuff was trying to be coherent, everyday writing. It was even worse than WW Gangrel clan novel in ham handed plot, easily the worst of the interwoven clan novel lot. And its spastic flux between explosive, jocular dialogue and just plain ol' Michael Bay over-saturation (like, "zOMG, it's the end of the world! guess I shouldn't have committed adultery. Oh shit, here comes an explosive crisis!" *boom*) would make a Battletech novel blush.

I couldn't help myself to play "let's count the typos!" and stopped somewhere after twenty from the first few pages. We're talking under 5 pages few. A truly frightening book, far worse than most horror, as I realized there's obscene money pouring into these yahoo venues to artificially inflate sell rate and propagation.

The movie was even scarier. Not even funny-but-exhausting bad like the modern Atlas Shrugged pt. 1. Just humorless, where-the-fuck-are-the-psycho-motherfuckers-funding-this-shit? bad. And it had Kurt Cameron trying to be all earnest and shit, with nary a banana public service announcement in sight.
:mad:

So...not a fan?

Quote from: The_Shadow;704559So...not a fan?

Well, I decided not to get into the series after all.

Quote from: RPGPundit;524197So which one was it, out of all the ones they made?  Which was the worst piece of shit in the bunch?
 
Blackmoor?
Gygax-era Greyhawk?
Tekumel?
Mystara?
Kara-tur?
Dragonlance?
Forgotten Realms?
Ravenloft?
2e-era "From the Ashes" Greyhawk?
Al-qadim?
Hollow World?
Dark Sun?
Spelljammer?
Planescape?
Birthright?

I'm sure there's a few I'm missing in that list.  Say which one you thought was a total waste of paper that the designers should be shot for having written.

RPGPundit

Gygax-era Greyhawk

Spelljammer. Completely moved away from D&D.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;704588Spelljammer. Completely moved away from D&D.

Into space.:rolleyes:

Honestly, while Dragonlance and Planescape were bad, I think the worst was probably Kara-tur; it was just a whole collection of dubious stereotypes.

You can't even really complain that it was early days, because it happened like 10 years after Tekumel which certainly wasn't stereotypical (though it might have gone too far the other way, into unrecognizeable).

RPGPundit