Magna Carta states no freeman can be punished except through the law of the land. In practice of course the guy with the biggest gang makes the rules but ....


Magna carta has all sorts of rules relating to merchants , mercenaries and the Welsh that may be relevant for an RPG.

# Animals going on trial!!

Animals could face criminal charges. They did this a lot, there was even a Blackadder episode where a rooster was taken to court for witchcraft.

Except, that within a game-world with talking animals, and religions that have the belief that they can communicate to animals, this might be an even more acceptable practice.

# Illegal marriages!!

It might be easier to marry your 12 year old cousin than the woman from the born in next country, or an elf or dwarf.

# Trial by combat!!

Did you just give me a reason to dust off my 36th level fighter? Oh yeah, finally a law for non-druids!!! Bring! It! On!

# Cant fly kites!!

Draconian laws against kites! Cant fly them in the capital!

# Taxi-cab laws!!

catching a cab wearing armour or having the plague, or carrying a corpse, or rabid dogs...

# Sturgeon's Law!!

Beached whales must be offered as tribute to the king.

""Severe punishment laws:

If you were found hunting in royal parks back in medieval times, you faced having your ears cut off. If you were accused of being a thief you had your hands cut off and if you gossiped, heaven help you. You could be placed in a scold’s bridle or have your tongue cut out if you went too far. If you were a female who committed a murder you were strangled to death and then burned.

High treason was punishable by being hung then drawn and quartered. The general public and various communities refused to pay for the upkeep of prisoners. Therefore it was deemed logical to execute criminals or mutilate them and send them on their way to fend for themselves. Gibbets were found just outside of most towns and it was common to see rotting bodies left on them.

This acted as a type of deterrent to would-be criminals. Yet it failed to deter the most hardened of criminals. Historians state that even with the gibbets and severe laws, approximately 116 murders, 90 robberies and 65 violent brawls occurred in the city of Lincoln in 1202. Ironically, with the harsh laws set in place, only two people faced execution.""

That last bit was just copied from a random website.

# No bows and arrows in class, no armour in parliament!!

No weapons and armour in some places you would totally need your +4 Flame Sword...

# Trial by floating in water!!

So, therefor if a duck floats...

Quote from: Old Geezer;702483Is the player a noble servant such as the son of a knight, or is he a peasant or freeman in a servile role?

Because frankly, especially in less inhabited areas, a knight could do damn near anything to a commoner including kill him, and suffer little to no ill effect.

Freeman, and not to be rude to you and the others posting their helpful advice here but: I Know.  I do have a fucking history degree and I am the guy who WROTE Dark Albion, after all.

So I'm not looking to have my own ignorance answered on the subject, I'm looking for some website that explains it on simple straightforward terms for me to back up what I'm trying to communicate to this idiot.  And to provide my players with source material in general without needing to sit through a history lecture from me.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Votan;702705This punishment shows up all the time in the lead up to the War of the Roses and through the Tudor era.  Some pretty notable people were killed this way, including William Wallace.

That punishment was mainly for treason.  1st they were hanged.  Nobles often got off with being beheaded.  Henry VIII once had nobleman in London executed for manslaughter after the guy struck and killed a commoner without cause.  Henry's sheriffs  were his and often put the screws to outlying nobles who got out of line vis-a-vis physical punishment of commoners...

I dunno, I think the three minute history lecture should suffice.  It'd take less time than for your players to get a link, pull up a link, and read a link, and you'd have more chance that they'd actually get the information instead of blowing you off.

That being said, if you're a historian, what is it with your players?  "Link or it isn't true?"  They're unwilling to take your word for it?

Quote from: Ravenswing;703257I dunno, I think the three minute history lecture should suffice.  It'd take less time than for your players to get a link, pull up a link, and read a link, and you'd have more chance that they'd actually get the information instead of blowing you off.

That being said, if you're a historian, what is it with your players?  "Link or it isn't true?"  They're unwilling to take your word for it?

Pretty much what I was about to say.  If "Look, douchecanoe, your lord has virtual total power over you," isn't enough, I don't know what is.

Or maybe you should show them the clip from Richard Lester's 3 Musketeers (or is it 4 Musketeers) where Rochfort says something Richeleu doesn't like, and the Cardinal says "On your knees, little man, before your master" and Rochfort gets this "Oh holy fucking SHIT" look on his face and kneels.  Show them that clip, and say "This.  This is the relationship."

Christ, that was COMTE DE ROCHFORT and he almost shat his pants.

Also, does it HAVE to be a website?  The book "Time Traveler's Guide to Medieval England" by Ian Mortimer (Simon and Schuster, 2008) covers crime and punishment, courtesy and etiquette (which is more the case of the servant), et al.

"Great lords can be very prickly, and any disrespect shown to them or members of their household is liable to lead to bitterness, enmity, and violent repercussions." (page 89)

"The important thing to remember is the universal desire for respect.  The modern idea of impressing your peers by showing an arrogant disregard towards your social superiors simply has no place in medieval England." (ibid)

"Do not avert your eyes from the person of the king:  you should look at him directly and honestly (as with everyone else of equal or higher social rank, unlike later centuries)" (ibid)

"...be circumspect in your actions and gestures.  Everything can be held against you as a mark of disrespect.  And it is for the social superior to decide what is or is not disrespectful, not you." (page 90)

"Manners maketh Man, they say.  Certainly the lack of them can unmake a man."  (page 89)

"Identity is much more than a name.  It includes where you are from and, by implication, how far you are from those who will protect you." (page 87) (emphasis mine... though the author discusses elsewhere the need for protection)

"IN order to understand how justice in enacted in the fourteenth century, we must remind ourselves how people actually live.  The key aspects to bear in mind are that everyone belongs somewhere, and that people live communally." (page 216)

This means that your disrespectful servant will be turned out, and will belong NOWHERE.  They are now an outlaw.

" 'What?' you ask.  'The manorial lord has a right to administer the behavior of his villeins too?' "  (page 227)

"If a man starts a fight within the city, or draws his sword or dagger, he is to lose the weapon.  If he draws blood he is to be fined, and, if he cannot pay, he is to be imprisoned.  This does not affect the right of a householder to correct his servant or apprentice within the law."  (page 232)

This certainly implies correcting a servant may involve use of a sword or dagger!  EDIT:  On second reading it looks like it's the part about "drawing blood" that does not affect the right of a householder, etc.  However, it still gets the point across; the player's lord could beat him badly enough to draw blood and it would be considered "correction."

Quote from: Ravenswing;703257I dunno, I think the three minute history lecture should suffice.  It'd take less time than for your players to get a link, pull up a link, and read a link, and you'd have more chance that they'd actually get the information instead of blowing you off.

That being said, if you're a historian, what is it with your players?  "Link or it isn't true?"  They're unwilling to take your word for it?

Some players are pigheaded; but the point is really that rather than interrupting the game for constant historical lectures, they could do a bit of homework.

RPGPundit

(scritches his head)  Hrm.  Why conflate *one* three-minute precis into "constant historical lectures?"  Heck, if I had to do one once a game session, which is a crazy lot of history lessons, that'd be three minutes of history vs. 387 minutes of play.  I think that any claims on the players' part that they'd be monstrously inconvenienced by less than 1% of their play time being taken up by background could be safely ignored with the contempt they'd deserve.

That being said, pigheaded?  So what?  When I'm behind the dice?  There are absolutely elements in which I defer to my players' expertise ... I just finished a scenario set in mountain country, one of my players is an experienced mountain climber, and he just plain knows more than I do about how long it takes to climb X yards of Y degree of slope in Z weather conditions.  I'd no idea, off the top of my head, how long it takes to butcher a hog; my wife does, and clued me in.

But beyond situations like that?  I do not brook, not for the slightest instant, any debate on whether my setting works the way I say it works.  I'm happy to say I've had only a bare handful of people over the years buttheaded enough to try, and they either get a fast attitude adjustment or an invitation to seek some other campaign more in keeping with their prejudices.  Life's too short.

There's an easier and more immersive way. The best OD&D DM I ever played with used to convey Laws and consequences of lawbreaking via the Rumours and random encounters tables.

Have the players character executed in some horrific manner, then by government order raised from the dead, only the be executed again in some other slow, painful and humiliating manner. Lather, rinse and repeat as needed.

No, really,  I suggest doing this at least once in every single game.

Quote from: Sean !;703374There's an easier and more immersive way. The best OD&D DM I ever played with used to convey Laws and consequences of lawbreaking via the Rumours and random encounters tables.

Yep, always a good way.  Overheard in the market place:

"Hey, Nath!  Didja hear?  The Greencloaks finally bagged Trent."

"Seriously?  It's about time.  We were tired of having to keep watches of a night.  When abouts?

"Oh, a ten-day ago.  The Lady herself came down from the capital to pass sentence."

"Already done, then.  Pestilence take it; our whole village would've come in to see it."

"Yeah, Ria and I took the children in to see it; we brought a picnic.  A half hour's torture by the public executioner, then they cut off his yard and fed it to the dogs while he watched, and then burned alive."

"Are you serious?  For what he did?"

"Yeah, you could see everyone's jaws drop.  For stealing the Lady's cask of jewels, insulting her daughter, and wounding two Greencloaks in the escape?  Archdivine Rhyier begged for clemency, they say, and the Lady must have been in a real good mood.  The executioner looked pissed when they told him to put his tools down and get on with it."

Ultimately, I think that the one big problem player this was mostly about is going to end up getting his character killed, and maybe the next one after that too, and then he'll either quit the game or learn his lesson the hard way.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;704047Ultimately, I think that the one big problem player this was mostly about is going to end up getting his character killed, and maybe the next one after that too, and then he'll either quit the game or learn his lesson the hard way.

RPGPundit

Players have a variety of reasons for suicidal PC behavior. Some are just looking to disrupt the game, others might be testing the waters to see if the GM will pull the trigger.

If its the former, an attitude adjustment out of game or the boot is the only cure. If its the latter then one dead PC should get the message across quickly.

And for tonight's session, he didn't show up.  He gave a work-related excuse. We'll see if he keeps showing in the future or not.