Quote from: Evansheer;699265I love the idea of it speeding things up but I just can't wrap my head around it.  I keep imagining it as hands-off GMing regarding NPCs, though that's probably incorrect.

In my experience, the more rolling you have the players do (as compared to the GM) the more you slow things down.  Especially with some players more than others. I have a couple of guys who seem to need to recalculate their to-hit bonus every single time they roll.

Quote from: RPGPundit;700511In my experience, the more rolling you have the players do (as compared to the GM) the more you slow things down.  Especially with some players more than others. I have a couple of guys who seem to need to recalculate their to-hit bonus every single time they roll.

Well, I tend to avoid games that require such calculations regularly, so players only roll is FASTER with the games I choose to use.

I really don't like Players Roll Everything.

To me, it feels like all the physics of the universe only relate to the PCs' themselves. It emphasizes protagonism, in a fictional/literary sense, and the rest of the world is a set of numbers and equations that only matter as far as they interact with the player characters and the dudes throwing the bones behind them.

It's a fourth-wall reference too far, for me. I can play a game like that, sure, once in a while, but I'd never make it a regular game I would run myself.

Quote from: Benoist;700617I really don't like Players Roll Everything.

To me, it feels like all the physics of the universe only relate to the PCs' themselves. It emphasizes protagonism, in a fictional/literary sense, and the rest of the world is a set of numbers and equations that only matter as far as they interact with the player characters and the dudes throwing the bones behind them.

It's a fourth-wall reference too far, for me. I can play a game like that, sure, once in a while, but I'd never make it a regular game I would run myself.

See, I don't let that happen. Usually a s a GM, stuff happens, and it happens with or without PC input. The PC's may change what happens, but they are not /all/ that happens. I sort of have a running series of events in my head, and how they're working until PC's hit the events, then we see where it goes. Stuff keeps happening, I don't need rolls to tell me "Shriven Elf here is going to kill all these people because they lack magical weapons, but will be stymied by the people who just lock themselves inside something he can't get through.." and let the players deal with that however they happen to get involved.

My worlds they live. They aren't shaped so much usually by the whims of the dice, but by the flow I feel works--good and bad, and sometimes things go wrong with that. I can usually tall you what that random passerby I had players walk past ate for lunch if asked. Because they live inside my head, doing stuff anyway.

Quote from: RPGPundit;700511In my experience, the more rolling you have the players do (as compared to the GM) the more you slow things down.  Especially with some players more than others. I have a couple of guys who seem to need to recalculate their to-hit bonus every single time they roll.

Another point to be made for how Numenera handles it: D20 versus a TN. The most bonus that can occur is +2, and having any bonus at all is pretty rare.

GM sets the difficulty, and relevant skills/assets/etc just lower the difficulty, so most of the calculation is GM facing even if the player is the one rolling.

Quote from: Benoist;700617I really don't like Players Roll Everything.

To me, it feels like all the physics of the universe only relate to the PCs' themselves. It emphasizes protagonism, in a fictional/literary sense, and the rest of the world is a set of numbers and equations that only matter as far as they interact with the player characters and the dudes throwing the bones behind them.

It's a fourth-wall reference too far, for me. I can play a game like that, sure, once in a while, but I'd never make it a regular game I would run myself.

The reason you dislike it is the reason I love it.

The world simulation is done with the GMs imagination instead of stimulative mechanics. I don't need to remember any intricate rules, because the GM rules boil down to "say what happens" it requires me to bring my improv A game and keep on my toes, but it's pretty fun and invigorating for me. YMMV of course.

I agree that systems where the players only (or mostly) roll concentrate predominately roll concentrate the randomness and mechanical crunch on how the pcs interact with the world, because that's what happens at the table. If something happens offscreen it doesn't have any relevance until the consequences of the even affects the pcs.

I'm not sure how a dice roll or rule for offscreen world behaviour is more or less 4th wall breaking than imagining something and saying what happens?

Quote from: Benoist;700617I really don't like Players Roll Everything.

To me, it feels like all the physics of the universe only relate to the PCs' themselves. (...)

It's a fourth-wall reference too far, for me.

How do you feel about the other way round - completely remove the fourth wall by having the GM roll everything?

Quote from: Adric;700819The reason you dislike it is the reason I love it.

Cool. Totally fine by me.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;700880How do you feel about the other way round - completely remove the fourth wall by having the GM roll everything?

It probably would be annoying in a similar fashion to me. And there still would be a fourth wall, by the way: it would just get in my face the other way around.

I much prefer that players roll what relates to their characters, while the GM rolls for the environment, including NPCs, but I wouldn't make it a hard line thing - it's more of a general principle with its case by case, sometimes contradictory, applications. Players roll for resistances and saving throws, for instance, or it might be cool for them to roll the chance for a wilderness encounter themselves out in the open on occasions, while the GM makes those d6 rolls behind the screen to determine whether your character notices the secret door.

There are other parameters going into who makes a particular roll than just "rules as physics engine." I never liked that expression, and don't feel it represents the way I envision the multiple roles of the rules and dice rolls in a role playing game, anyway.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;697778I'm somewhat alarmed that its becoming a fad seen as being 'good design'.

Isn't good design a product rather than a practice? Besides I'm not aware of anyone proclaiming only-players-roll as the new One True Way, and I'd say they were deluded if they did. (also if it's a fad, it will reliably die out.)

I'm a fan of it as a design option and I think both Cinematic Unisystem and *World are useful designs for a certain audience.

OTOH if you made some bastardised only-players-roll version of D&D it would strip out all the bits that make it D&D. I wouldn't want that.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;700880How do you feel about the other way round - completely remove the fourth wall by having the GM roll everything?

This would be like Everway, I guess.

I don't think its always the case, but certainly for SOME of the advocates of "players roll everything" the subtle intent is to remind players as much as possible that they're playing a game, rather than letting them immerse in a world.

Its certainly my experience that the games where the players roll the least possible dice are also those where the players end up thinking the least about the rules and the most about being immersed in their characters.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;700511In my experience, the more rolling you have the players do (as compared to the GM) the more you slow things down.  Especially with some players more than others. I have a couple of guys who seem to need to recalculate their to-hit bonus every single time they roll.

I am horrible at mathy things. I have various common calculations written down for quick refference just so Im not stalling the flow when I am a player.

Quote from: Omega;701508I am horrible at mathy things. I have various common calculations written down for quick refference just so Im not stalling the flow when I am a player.

Yup, its a problem with some players.  With others, its not so much math as not knowing where to look up stuff in their own character sheet, even though we've been playing the same game for five years now...