I'm not sure what argument you're making, Phillip, but it doesn't address what I said. What I'm saying is that for some players "old-school mortality" isn't a "problem", it's a feature of the game. And these people, who are actually more numerous I suspect than 'modern role players' with their drama classes would have us believe, have a right to say as much.

If people have a problem with "old school mortality" at the game table, then I don't see why it is a problem to play a modern version of D&D instead, or if the players are a minority in the group but you care about them, to house rule your game, or play some middle-of-the-road version of the game, like C&C with healing surges or whatnot.

The point remains, some people like "old school mortality" and consider it a feature of the game, not a bug.

I don't think you ladies getting vapors over people house-ruling D&D have a high horse to get on at all, and the only thing sillier is the notion that anyone's going to give a shit. If you're afraid that somewhere someone is having fun playing differently than you and I do, I'm pretty sure you're right, and I'll bet they'll keep shamelessly doing so because they've never even heard of our puddle of pedantic punditry!

Quote from: Phillip;699661I don't think you ladies getting vapors over people house-ruling D&D have a high horse to get on at all, and the only thing sillier is the notion that anyone's going to give a shit. If you're afraid that somewhere someone is having fun playing differently than you and I do, I'm pretty sure you're right, and I'll bet they'll keep shamelessly doing so because they've never even heard of our puddle of pedantic punditry!

Sure. Which is neither here nor there of course, since I pointed out I don't actually see the problem in playing D&D differently, modern version and otherwise.

Are you arguing with a muppet in your head?

Love it or hate it, permanant level draining by undead is freakin' scary!


'Your wizard is going to fireball himself and his allies to make sure the wraiths are destroyed' scary.

Quote from: Phillip;699657We're basically talking about D&D, which has been tremendously popular because -- unlike some "new school" games -- it is very adaptable to a wide variety of game styles. Since adjusting the deadliness is pretty trivial in light of all the rest of what's on offer, I see no need to get huffy and insist that everyone must "lump it or leave it."

Was it an abominable heresy that Gygax gave pretty much everyone except MUs an average of +1 HP per level in AD&D? I would say that it was a well considered response to the increase in deadliness introduced in Supplement I (despite the HD changes therein). The heavy revision of such things as spell descriptions and numbers castable by level likewise reflected a sense of desired game balance.

D&D was designed to require players to think in order to succeed and survive. Looking purely at the mechanical engine, if the game is approached strictly by the numbers, no character makes it to level 2 period. This is intentional. I personally have no interest in playing a game that can be won 9 out of 10 times on autopilot.

When learning what works and what doesn't, there will be a number of losses as with any game. If D&D is approached as a game this isn't a big deal. You learn what not to do and get better. If you are approaching D&D as story time of some kind of wish fulfillment then the learning process will be frustrating.

Step 1 is being honest with yourself. Are you there to play a game? If the answer is yes then character death should upset you about as much as going bankrupt in Monopoly, only D&D is more forgiving because you can roll up another playing piece and get back into the same ongoing game.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;699667D&D was designed to require players to think in order to succeed and survive. Looking purely at the mechanical engine, if the game is approached strictly by the numbers, no character makes it to level 2 period. This is intentional. I personally have no interest in playing a game that can be won 9 out of 10 times on autopilot.

When learning what works and what doesn't, there will be a number of losses as with any game. If D&D is approached as a game this isn't a big deal. You learn what not to do and get better. If you are approaching D&D as story time of some kind of wish fulfillment then the learning process will be frustrating.

Step 1 is being honest with yourself. Are you there to play a game? If the answer is yes then character death should upset you about as much as going bankrupt in Monopoly, only D&D is more forgiving because you can roll up another playing piece and get back into the same ongoing game.

Allthough I agree low hp characters are frightengly mortal in add and older versions, careful and clever can help a lot.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;699452And even if what you said afterwords did amend it, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let it stand that you intended for it to . . .

I don't want or need your fucking "benefit of the doubt."

Quote from: Emperor Norton;699452. . . baiting people intentionally is juvenile.

I threw a banana peel on the floor; don't get shitty with me because you're the one who landed on his ass.

Quote from: Omega;699518When you specifically give them a safe area and they insist on going off and getting their heads handed to them... well. yeah.

And if, instead, you sit down at the outset and explain that there are no 'safe areas?' That they need to play smart and skew the odds in their favor as much as they can?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;699667. . .[Roleplaying games are] more forgiving because you can roll up another playing piece and get back into the same ongoing game.

Unless your referee is dragoner, in which case everything prepped goes in the shitter immediately, apparently.

Quote from: Benoist;699665Sure. Which is neither here nor there of course, since I pointed out I don't actually see the problem in playing D&D differently, modern version and otherwise.

Are you arguing with a muppet in your head?

You're the one who insists on arguing against something I never said, for reasons you can blame on nobody but yourself. I just keep saying consistently what I have said all along, and if you don't disagree with it, then I reckon you can figure out for yourself what the heck you're up to because your backpedaling seems just incoherent to me.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;699676Unless your referee is dragoner, in which case everything prepped goes in the shitter immediately, apparently.

:rolleyes:

OK. lol

In trav, you never level up, so the mortality rate never falls.

Quote from: dragoner;699680In trav, you never level up, so the mortality rate never falls.

It doesn't? Your characters don't upgrade their ships with better defenses or acquire better ships altogether, purchase better armor and weapons, acquire robots for security and scouting, recruit mercenaries to act as guards?

Quote from: Phillip;699678You're the one who insists on arguing against something I never said, for reasons you can blame on nobody but yourself. I just keep saying consistently what I have said all along, and if you don't disagree with it, then I reckon you can figure out for yourself what the heck you're up to because your backpedaling seems just incoherent to me.

You are definitely arguing with a muppet, man.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;699667I personally have no interest in playing a game that can be won 9 out of 10 times on autopilot.

So don't, if you can find one in the first place. There's a LOT of territory between that and a 58% chance of getting killed by the first hit -- and I've heard a lot of things about Dave Hargrave's Arduin campaign, but "pushover" ain't among them!

Quote from: Bill;699671Allthough I agree low hp characters are frightengly mortal in add and older versions, careful and clever can help a lot.

More than that, careful and clever are virtually required. Doing the simplest of math, a character has a d6 hp on average and nearly all attacks do a d6 of damage. Each attack has about a 50% chance to drop a character in one hit.

Using that as an eyeball estimate and assuming a monster will hit nearly as often as it gets hit, how many straight encounters using only this simple interaction of numbers can a character survive?  Not many.

The game clearly intended the intangible contributions of the players to be the focus of play. Playing purely by the numbers results in wham bam re-roll a character man, 95% or more of the time.

That level of autopilot death rate strangely enough was designed (unless I am interpreting this all wrong) to increase and maintain interest in the game instead of the opposite. The more "forgiving" a game is in terms of just running the numbers, the less significant the player contribution is to victory.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;699686It doesn't? Your characters don't upgrade their ships with better defenses or acquire better ships altogether, purchase better armor and weapons, acquire robots for security and scouting, recruit mercenaries to act as guards?

At which point the opfor changes as well, if you don't learn to use the lethality of planning and intelligence, you are screwed. If anything, the lethality of the game increases, as do the challenges, but for the greater reward; and as with the real military - if you are in a fair fight, you are doing something wrong.